What's your vote on Sasha's move?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But there is nothing wrong with wanting to skate one's best and let the scores be acknowledged for that endeavour. It's not if you win or beat a particular personality, it's how you play the game. :sheesh:

I truly believe if a skater skate's his best, he will not quibble over someone skating better. Think Tim's silver at DC Worlds.

Joe

 

[euterpe]

...I think Red Dog is right. It did give Sasha a boost to realize that she was capable of matching Michelle. But now she has her sights on winning the major titles.

Mathman

Sasha has always had her sights on winning the major titles. As she said in an interview, she had intended to win gold at SLC and retire "just like Tara", but it's now taking a lot longer than she expected.

Sasha wasn't particularly elated at beating Kwan at Worlds 2004 because she so badly wanted and expected to be World Champion, and she fell short. A week or so later, she beat both Arakawa and Kwan at Marshall's, but that didn't seem to make up for not winning the title, because instead of training with renewed energy, she pretty much slacked off over the summer and early fall, and it showed Campbell's. It seems those wins in the Spring of 2004 didn't boost her confidence enough to motivate her to work even harder.

 

[Peggy]

. A week or so later, she beat both Arakawa and Kwan at Marshall's, but that didn't seem to make up for not winning the title, because instead of training with renewed energy, she pretty much slacked off over the summer and early fall, and it showed Campbell's. It seems those wins in the Spring of 2004 didn't boost her confidence enough to motivate her to work even harder.

It appears, having a spider bite on her foot, a reaction to medication and an injured back doesn't count with some people as far as Sasha is concerned. It is amazing how much flack this girl gets.

 

[chuckm]

You can always find the reason why Sasha didn't win a competition right there in her journal, albeit sometimes after the fact. It was shingles for 2004 Nationals, and spider bites, reaction to medication, moving for Campbell's. The back injury was reported some time later Campbell's, though.

 

[shdotz]

Sasha Cohen

I think Sasha needs to look to herself for the problems she continues having when skating.

She's a gorgeous skater - in many ways.

Nothing changes with her. I wonder why.

sh

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It appears, having a spider bite on her foot, a reaction to medication and an injured back doesn't count with some people as far as Sasha is concerned. It is amazing how much flack this girl gets.

Peggy - I don't think it is a question of Sasha's talent that 'some people' are complaining about. They are complaining about 'other people' who were anti Kwan. It is kind of a pay back. Kwan, you'll remember had the'excuse' of a bad toe just before 98 which the anti Kwan people would be not believe. There was a tirade of antiKwan sentiments in this forum from 98 through present day but not so much lately since MK has become a kind of recluse. The Tara fans went right on to become Irina fans and then Sasha fans. This is kind of a reverse flack what is happening to Sasha. It'll pass once the Worlds is over and then again for the time leading up to Olys. However it will be worse around Olys time and the Moderators will be going bananas.

Joe

 

[gezando]

Gezando, you and I really don't agree at all. Janet Lynn had a lovely layback but it was not in Sasha's league. Kristi? Come on-we are talking apples and oranges here. You forgot Dorothy Hamill who REALLY did have a lovely layback.

I believe all of the above skaters, and throw in Angela, and Sarah have close to text book layback. You prefer Cohen, I prefer Kristi. Come on Kristi actually has a very close to text book layback. No one has a perfect layback. Sarah has IMO a very lovely back, and Angela's hip, arm and leg are more pleasing to my eyes. Somehow you are determined to elevate Cohen's layback to the skies. Your are free to do that, but don't accuse people of not being generous, if they don't share your view.

Back to infectious diseases. ANYONE can do infectious disease work. Doing it well is the important thing.

Actually back to "generosity" that you have been harping on. If you want others to follow your example to be "generous" show some generosity. Silly me, I don't know that anyone can do infectious disease work. I sure can not Really, I thought they need to be gifted, hard working, and have the patience to go through years of training. Your challenge to poster to do what Cohen does on ice is as relevant as my challenge to Cohen to do infectious disease. Maybe Cohen can design antibiotics (or should the correct term be antimicrobial Bronxgirl) resistance survelliance. I am sure Cohen won't even sweat if she has to map out the genome, or identified the genes associated with resistance. I am sure it takes her no time to gather the epidemiology data on the HIV type 2 in the USA. How about work out a treatment protocol for SARS. At the end of the day, Cohen can figure out the avian influzenza mutation trend after she has done 15 run throughs of her lp.

Sasha is a brilliant skater and she did indeed up the ante and become the gold standard for many skaters when you talk about spirals, laybacks and spins. The Bielman spiral is a direct result of trying to up the ante to compete with Sasha and Michelle's spirals, which are the best.

Arakawa did a change of edge level 3 Biellman spiral at GPF last year, and I believe Cohen received a level 2 on her spiral in the same event. I thought Arakawa was working on the COP. I thought Irina's Biellman spiral is formuated as a COP strategy.

Do I really think that some people want Sasha to fail? Yes, sadly I do. For some reason, and I have no idea what that is, some people want her to fail and are supremely happy when she does.

Some people predict she won't win nationals and worlds, and some are her own fans.

Even if her presentation and artistry aren't your cup of tea, you cannot deny her balletic quality, which is unique to her.

Please define balletic. It is as sujective as artistry, IMO. You say Cohen others say Healey, you say Cohen others say young Oksana. Unique to her, I can't agree.

Well, yes, she is flexible, but it is so much more and that's why Dick and Peggy gush and judges reward her for it.

Dick always say she has perfect technique. IMHO, she has the technique, I don't see artistry. I define art very different/

It's a gracefulness and attitude that are lovely to watch.

Gracefulness is subjective again.

Does she lack emotion?

Sorry, my view of art is not just about emotion either. it is an ability to perform with intelligence, and humility, making nuance and adjustment to shape each note / movement / stroke of paint / producing a wealth of expression with each note/ movement / stroke of paint so to form an overall masterpiece as a whole. Honestly, I don't think any competitive skater has time to do that. But they don't have to, they just have to skate a winning program.

I brought up Sarah and Cohen's competitive records, b/c you said Cohen blew everyone away the moment she hit senior. IIRC Cohen did not blew Sarah away, Cohen beat Sarah 5 to 4 in 2000 nats, and Sarah beat Cohen 5:4 in COR same season. I believe when Sarah was competing there were twice the amount of threads dedicated to her flutz and underrotated jumps LOL

BTW, there are plenty of Cohen fans here at GS. I even read some poster gushed / worshipped "Cohen is God's gift to skating" Since Joesitz is taking us down memory lane about history. I remember Joe issued an opinion a couple of summers ago, that GS is not a skater specific forum, and there shouldn't be any Michelle gushing. AFAIK, no MK gushed about MK as "God's gift to skating" Fast forward in time, a Cohen fan post " Sasha is the most beautiful skater, she is God's gift to skating" Surprise I don't see Joe reminding there should not be any Cohen gushing. You may be happy to know that Cohen gushing is very acceptable here.

Since nationals is just around the corner let me predict that Cohen will win nationals, and worlds 05, and OGM 06. Oh well in the spirit of generosity, how about predicting that she will win gold every time she steps on the ice. Good enough??

 

[Peggy]

This is kind of a reverse flack what is happening to Sasha. It'll pass once the Worlds is over and then again for the time leading up to Olys. However it will be worse around Olys time and the Moderators will be going bananas.

Joe

Thanks Joe, thats real encouraging.<G> I guess if she wasn't such a beautiful skater no one would be talking about her. Its going to set these boards on fire when she gets the gold.<BG> peggy

 

[gezando]

You can always find the reason why Sasha didn't win a competition right there in her journal, albeit sometimes after the fact. It was shingles for 2004 Nationals, and spider bites, reaction to medication, moving for Campbell's. The back injury was reported some time later Campbell's, though.

Or when she came in 4th in worlds 2003, that was post on Cohen's offical site as "Fumie Suguri was in an easier QR"

 

[kyla2]

More Thoughts

First, let me thank everyone who welcomed me to the site. I have lurked here and posted very intermittently, but this Sasha issue has me worked up to say the least, EVEN AS A MICHELLE KWAN FAN FIRST AND FOREMOST (sorry, had to do that Gezando).

Well, let me say that Angela has a gorgeous layback, as does Sarah. Kristi, who I also like very much, just doesn't have my favorite layback. Sasha's is still one of the very best, if not the best. Her only true competition to me is Sarah in that area.

I maintain that her artistry is unique and balletic (look at the posiions she maintains-classic ballet positions). Sometimes she lacks an emotional onnection to the music and that is all I will concede. But as I said earlier, i have seen an improvement there also. Are any of her performances as brilliant artistically as Michelle Kwan's most memorable performances-no, I would say not. Michelle is essentially in a class by herself and she can transport an audience when she is at her best. You give a list of criteria that you suggest Sasha does not meet, well I don't agree with that either. Although she isn't Anna Pavlova, she's the closest thing we are probably ever going to see to a ballerina on ice. Her performances can be mesmerizing, always intriguing and they are never dull (sometimes not for the right reason).
As for infection control in a hospital, trust me, anyone can do that job with the proper training. Whether they do it well, is another issue entirely (again, I am sure Bronxgirl does a great job and that comment is no reflection on her at all). What ice skaters do requires a physical gift (besides training) and if they are special, an artistic gift as well. There are many more infectious disease specialists than there are figure skaters. Which is more important to society is another issue altogether and I suspect we would agree on that answer.

Has Sasha failed to deliver based on her talent, I suppose so. But I still feel very badly for her and I wish her nothing but success. I believe a clean perfomance by Sasha would beat anyone else out there if all is right wih the skating gods (the judges). It pains me to say that because I love Michelle. But until she beefs up her program with triple-triples to offset the layback and spin edge that Sasha has, that's the outcome I would expect. I don't think Irina's combinations would offset Sasha's artistic edge (the one you don't agree that she has). Irina's spins and spirals have come a long way and I am very impressed with her improvement. But I still think Sasha has the overall edge. Shizuka, same thing. Having said all that, wouldn't it be great to see all the skaters skate their very best and see how it all falls out? That would be a perfect day in figure skating for me. I sure wouldn't want to have to judge it though.

 

[gezando]

.

Sasha's is still one of the very best, if not the best. Her only true competition to me is Sarah in that area.

I did not say Cohen's layback is not top rated, but your were gushing up her layback, and I don't share that view.

I maintain that her artistry is unique and balletic

And IMO she is not artistic, good technique yes.

You give a list of criteria that you suggest Sasha does not meet, well I don't agree with that either.

I list what I perceive as art, and most skaters do not meet, including Cohen
I also said they don't have to be artistic, just skate a winning program.

Her performances can be mesmerizing, always intriguing and they are never dull (sometimes not for the right reason).

I never find her mesmerizing, sometimes even boring. But I think she is capable of winning big. See art is subjective.

What ice skaters do requires a physical gift (besides training) and if they are special, an artistic gift as well.

I have already mentioned that skating gods bless skaters with the gift of skating, Infectious disease gods bless the infx dz specialist with another gift. So when you challenge people to do what Cohen can do on the ice is as irrelevant as my challenge to Cohen to map out the bacterial genome for antibiotics resistance.

more important to society is another issue altogether and I suspect we would agree on that answer.

I disagree with your idea that anyone can do infectious disease work (with training). I know I can't even with training. But then my idea of infectious disease control is not just washing hands. I wonder how many people are willing to go to the heart of Africa and try to combat the tsetse flies and stop the African
Trypanosomiasis. How many people have the smarts, and dedication to deal with infection control world wide or even in the USA. I don't know what is the relevance of stating there are more infectious disease specialists than skaters. And I am sure there are athletes competing in skating than curling. So curlers are more special?

I seriously don't know why you get so worked up about Cohen. Like I said, there were at least 2X more threads about Sarah's flutz and underrotated jumps. Joesitiz used to tell us not to gush about MK b/c GS is not a skater specific forum, but when poster gushed about Cohen as "God's gift to skating" (exact quote) that was acceptable. I think among all the skaters being discssed here at GS, Cohen is the most protected.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

. I seriously don't know why you get so worked up about Cohen. Like I said, there were at least 2X more threads about Sarah's flutz and underrotated jumps. Joesitiz used to tell us not to gush about MK b/c GS is not a skater specific forum, but when poster gushed about Cohen as "God's gift to skating" (exact quote) that was acceptable. I think among all the skaters being discssed here at GS, Cohen is the most protected.

Gezando, Please don't misquote me. I could not have possibly phrased it that way. GS is not a fan-specific-forum. Over and out.

Gushing any skater is ok as long as it doesn't get too involved with other members who do not share the same view. At some point in the discussion, a 'let's agree to disagree' is the appropriate ending.

 

[bronxgirl]

Joe,
You're right it is antimicrobial surveillance (although antibiotic surveillance is a subset). Sasha and I were discussing how to develop an avian influenza vaccine right after we were discussing how to fix her flutz

 

[Linny]

How many pages

How many pages will this thread turn out to be? Adding these pages and the pages for the other thread which is pretty much the same subject might be a new GS page record!
Linny
Anyone have any reports from the practices? Are Sasha and Mr Nicks getting along?

 

[R.D.]

I think among all the skaters being discssed here at GS, Cohen is the most protected.

What kind of statement is this? On the other hand, I think she is the most criticized here...even some new/newer posters are pointing that out...not that I think there is anything wrong with that, but I think it's totally ridiculous to say Cohen is protected here. :sheesh:

 

[Mathman]

I think what Gezando means that when Sasha is the subject of criticism, many posters check in to defend her, plus the moderators are quicker to remind people about Forum etiquette than is the case for other skaters. But Michael Weiss, Barbara Fusar-Poli and Tara Lipinski, for instance, pretty much have to fend for themselves, LOL

MM

 

[R.D.]

I think what Gezando means that when Sasha is the subject of criticism, many posters check in to defend her, plus the moderators are quicker to remind people about Forum etiquette than is the case for other skaters. But Michael Weiss, Barbara Fusar-Poli and Tara Lipinski, for instance, pretty much have to fend for themselves, LOL

MM

If that's the case, just wait 'till someone dares to criticize Kwan. :sheesh: That poster will IMMEDIATELY be jumped on. GO figure. Comments on Cohen IMO haven't got anything near that type of reaction...

 

[Piel]

I think what Gezando means that when Sasha is the subject of criticism, many posters check in to defend her, plus the moderators are quicker to remind people about Forum etiquette than is the case for other skaters. But Michael Weiss, Barbara Fusar-Poli and Tara Lipinski, for instance, pretty much have to fend for themselves, LOL

MM

We've had an "I Like Mike" thread but you'r right Tara and Babs or on their own.....JUST KIDDING !

As for protecting Sasha, I think that most of us would just like to see her have that once in a lifetime skate.

Mods, you ARE still requiring all new posters to sign the "I will not bash Kwan pledge" aren't you?

 

[Grgranny]

I doubt this site will get as many posts as Ekaterina did when she was pregnant the last time.

 

[Mathman]

Mods, you ARE still requiring all new posters to sign the "I will not bash Kwan pledge" aren't you?

Shelly made us take it down.

The last time she was in Detroit, Shelly says, "Mathy," (that's her pet nickname for me), "Mathy," she says, "you tell all those Internet wimps Shelly says, bring it on! No triple-triple? Spins too slow? That's all you suckers got? Y'all GSers can eat my tights!"

"And don't make me say what 'GSers' means!"