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- Nov 5, 2023
Still secretly hoping that Shoma and Marin will come out of their retirement to do some ice dance together...
Who Could Do A Program With No Jumps...
- Thread starter TallyT
- Start date
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- Apr 23, 2018
Hey, I did try to specify an audience, not just the one fan or the core base, and several of the names I put up were ones that I personally wouldn't be that enraptured by
. It is hard sometimes, when we love someone on ice so deeply and so dearly, to be able to imagine that others can't see their inherent magic, especially if it's a mental exercise only (very few of them have done programs with no or very few/simple jumps).It is notable how few recent Olympic/Worlds champions have been mentioned, maybe because many of them seem inseparable from their jumping prowess.
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- Sep 23, 2020
I also think it is natural that a thread like this attracts fans of skating close to the assignment and they are fans of skaters who are considered either "artistic", or "well-rounded", so naturally they point to their faves because this style of skating made them their faves to start with. Fans of "jumpers" just do not post here. I guess if you have asked who could make a program consisting of jumps only, the range of both posters posting and skaters pointed to would be quite different.Hey, I did try to specify an audience, not just the one fan or the core base, and several of the names I put up were ones that I personally wouldn't be that enraptured by
It is notable how few recent Olympic/Worlds champions have been mentioned, maybe because many of them seem inseparable from their jumping prowess.
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- Sep 22, 2019
ThisAll of the ice dancers!
(unless I missed a stipulation for singles skaters somewhere)
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- Aug 12, 2014
that's true, but I did, in my own mind, separate them, so here goes: (the pairs, I counted as having spectacular lifts but sometimes challenged on jumps, so no jumps would be no problem. Pairs lifts would stay in this imaginary scenario.
Anna Shcherbakova
Nathan Chen
Sui and Han
Aljona Savchenko and Bruno Massot
... and Olympian Adam Rippon
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- Mar 14, 2007
Olympic bronze medalist Adam Ripponthat's true, but I did, in my own mind, separate them, so here goes: (the pairs, I counted as having spectacular lifts but sometimes challenged on jumps, so no jumps would be no problem. Pairs lifts would stay in this imaginary scenario.
Anna Shcherbakova
Nathan Chen
Sui and Han
Aljona Savchenko and Bruno Massot
... and Olympian Adam Rippon
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- Mar 14, 2007
I feel that way about Tai Babilonia.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Well, I feel that way about Yuzuru Hanyu...
I guess most of fans feel that way about their faves if they have one though I am not sure what it might prove apart from us being true fans ....
Just saying
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I always feel that way about my short track faves.Well, I feel that way about Yuzuru Hanyu...
I guess most of fans feel that way about their faves if they have one though I am not sure what it might prove apart from us being true fans ....
Just saying
Couldn't help saying
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Well, that was funny ....I always feel that way about my short track faves.
Couldn't help saying
I almost spilled my morning coffee from laughing ...
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I only said the truthWell, that was funny ....
I almost spilled my morning coffee from laughing ...
A treasure indeed
It was said many times in this thread that every elite skater is capable to do a program without jumps. But would we like to watch it? In his day, Buttle would hardly appear on the watch list (or at least, on the top of the list) when it came to non-jump performance. He had a reputation of a 'jump specialist' yet poor presenter. I guess he did this exhibition exactly because he wanted to prove this statement wrong. AND he succeeded
The paradoxical thing is that this exhibition shows very well that Jeffrey clearly does not have the assets that are rewarded by high PSC. The speed and smoothness of his skating is nowhere close to those of the best. He's not super-flexible, nor he shows lots of multi-dimensional upper body movements that are so hailed by judges. But still, the choreography is packed. He's telling the story he is emotionally connected to and the audience can connect to. Which is the most important component for the audience yet only tiny fraction in PCS.
I think this lifts a curtain a bit why PCS, that was initially meant to preserve the "showiness' of competitive skating, totally fell out with the audience. The audience would expect Jeffrey Buttle placing higher than Patrick Chan in PCS if Jeff had emotionally inspired performance and Patrick had emotionally bland performance on the particular competition day. But, even though PCS did and is doing huge job to preserve skating in figure skating (who would think that there will be an issue in merely twenty years?), it could only reflect it as a small percentage of points that did not really affect the score. I remember those disappointed audience reactions in the early years of IJS... and then, the audience (or, what was left of the audience) gave up and focused on TES. A sad story
That's not at all how I remember his reputation when he was competing. Quite the opposite, actually.
Which is why the ISU (or the commentators in each country, who each have their own preferences and blind spots) needed and still need to do a better job of explaining that PCS cover both technical skating qualities throughout the program including/especially? between elements, and also several different aspects of performance quality throughout the program including/especially between elements. Emotional inspiration alone won't win titles, although it can make the difference if all else is more or less equal.I think this lifts a curtain a bit why PCS, that was initially meant to preserve the "showiness' of competitive skating, totally fell out with the audience. The audience would expect Jeffrey Buttle placing higher than Patrick Chan in PCS if Jeff had emotionally inspired performance and Patrick had emotionally bland performance on the particular competition day. But, even though PCS did and is doing huge job to preserve skating in figure skating (who would think that there will be an issue in merely twenty years?), it could only reflect it as a small percentage of points that did not really affect the score. I remember those disappointed audience reactions in the early years of IJS... and then, the audience (or, what was left of the audience) gave up and focused on TES. A sad story
Being strong in all components, and not just the Performance area (or Interpretation as well when there were 5 components), can give skaters an advantage over their competitors, because a point or more advantage in each component can add up to more than the difference between a triple and a quad. Especially with particularly strong skating skills (which viewers on video are less able to appreciate for themselves), since that component often influenced the scoring range judges awarded the program for all PCS. Especially when there were 5 components and Skating Skills was listed first.
But as men's singles has become so quad-focused, without the PCS factors being adjusted to match, it has become that much more difficult for strong skating and strong performance to overcome more successful more difficult jumps.
Different audiences probably focus on different aspects of the scoring, depending on what they like best about skating. There are still some fans who understands why jumps can win over anything else but still care most about some or all of the everything else.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2019
Yes, that description sounds more like someone like Brian Joubert...
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- Mar 7, 2015
I really disagree with that. Jeff wasn't a jump specialist. He didn't have a quad. His technique was excellent and so was his air position but not much firepower. He actually was a PCS skater. He was by far my favourite skater in the years when he won bronze in Torino and Gold at worlds. I was so sad when he lost to Patrick at Nationals in 2008 and so happy when he won worlds anywayA treasure indeed
It was said many times in this thread that every elite skater is capable to do a program without jumps. But would we like to watch it? In his day, Buttle would hardly appear on the watch list (or at least, on the top of the list) when it came to non-jump performance. He had a reputation of a 'jump specialist' yet poor presenter. I guess he did this exhibition exactly because he wanted to prove this statement wrong. AND he succeeded
(As a matter of fact, the jump guy from back then, Brian Joubert said something like "this is not men's figure skating" because Jeff won easily and without a quad. ) And then, sad again as he chose to retire and not do home games in Vancouver... and considering what happened there, the guy with no quad won... etc...And back then, when they both competed together, Jeff would place higher than Patrick in PCS... but Patrick was a kid...
The paradoxical thing is that this exhibition shows very well that Jeffrey clearly does not have the assets that are rewarded by high PSC. The speed and smoothness of his skating is nowhere close to those of the best. He's not super-flexible, nor he shows lots of multi-dimensional upper body movements that are so hailed by judges. But still, the choreography is packed. He's telling the story he is emotionally connected to and the audience can connect to. Which is the most important component for the audience yet only tiny fraction in PCS.
I think this lifts a curtain a bit why PCS, that was initially meant to preserve the "showiness' of competitive skating, totally fell out with the audience. The audience would expect Jeffrey Buttle placing higher than Patrick Chan in PCS if Jeff had emotionally inspired performance and Patrick had emotionally bland performance on the particular competition day. But, even though PCS did and is doing huge job to preserve skating in figure skating (who would think that there will be an issue in merely twenty years?), it could only reflect it as a small percentage of points that did not really affect the score. I remember those disappointed audience reactions in the early years of IJS... and then, the audience (or, what was left of the audience) gave up and focused on TES. A sad story
Back then, PCS were not given like candies though. Jeff and Patrick would earn high 7 or low 8s... it's only leading up to Sochi that PCS started to regularly go above 9. Skaters who were in the high 7s got a huge boost suddenly. At that point, I knew the system was already broken because Patrick deserved to be quite ahead of most in PCS and he no longer was... but now, it's even worse.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
