Who is DOOMED next season?

[Winnipeg]

That's the thing.. They were great at this year's worlds, but they were also lucky to medal, cos P/T and K/S left the door open for them.. Furthermore, their lack of a triple twist may really cost them. In fact, everyone else in the top 5 this year has a solid triple twist. Even their canadian teamates L/H are constantly attempting them. So I have my doubts that they will medal next year, especially since the competition will get even fiercer as the Olympics draw nearer.

I hope they get fiercer too.............maybe they'll get the twist this summer

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I think its interesting that rabid skating fans can't have a totally silly conversation about who is DOOMED next season and opt for a logical, rational conversation about ISU policies, judging concerns and the very future of the sport...

Don't get me wrong, I think (and know...) its a rich conversation to have, but interesting none the less and says a lot about the state of the sport... ESPN's whole business model centers around the idea that sports fans are a bit unstable about their sport of choice and enjoy an expert opinion to support their banter & fandom... but you never here fans of NASCAR, golf, tennis or football discuss if their particular sport is doomed – athletes maybe, but never the sport itself... that's for the Gumble brothers to discuss... sports fans only want to discuss what needs to happen to ensure their favs championship run.

Skating was like this a few years ago... who's better? who's gonna win? who needs to hang it up... Judging wasn't at the forefront when discussing doom- and maybe that's the problem - fans didn't pay attention because so many truly great skaters were competing and there was continuality in the sport...

Worlds '08 was the wake up call... maybe skating itself is doomed... the system is confusing. the skaters are unable to harness "greatness". and the skating is messy. No disrespect to the champs & medalists... but was that really the best that modern skating can produce? Not a good look.

 

[Mathman]

Skating was like this a few years ago... who's better? who's gonna win? who needs to hang it up... Judging wasn't at the forefront when discussing doom- and maybe that's the problem...

That is a huge point. When the sport becomes the scoring system and not the skating, it truly is doomed.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

That is a huge point. When the sport becomes the scoring system and not the skating, it truly is doomed.

And how sad is that??? We had a staff meeting where our co-workers had to say someone's defining charaterisic and mine was "she's a huge figure skating fan!" its gonna be a sad day when that changes to "she spends too much on shoes" (like someone could ever spend too much on shoes...)

 

[Jhar55]

When I first read the thread title, first thing that came to mind was the FANS.
Tickets, transportation as so high and none of the networks want to air much skating. Unless you can watch on the internt the only luck I had there was Nationals on Icenetwork.

 

[alicelouise]

Doomed?

As far as individual skaters are concerned, anything can happen next year. I've watched Ice skating a long time. In 1996 Michelle Kwan looked set to win the 1998 Olympics without serious opposition. In 1999, it was suggested that Irina S. hang up her skates because her best days were gone. In 2002 Sarah Hughes was to be the understudy and maybe win an Olympic medal another time. We all know what happened in subsequent events. Skaters such as Kimmie Meissner can take heart and learn. The skaters who are doing well at this time should never take anything for granted.

Many Americans can't wait for the US Jr. Ladies to take over the sport. Again, in the past it has been shown that doing well in juniors does not mean dominance in the international arena. In 1995 and 1996 the Russian ladies swept the podiums. Only one, Irina S., had international success.

No one is doomed or ordained for success or failure.

 

[mycelticblessing]

I just hope Dube/Davison get better music for next season. Both the SP and FS were soporific.

Well, it would have been fine if they only kept it for one season, but recycling the SP and LP and Exhibition music is abit much.. I think D/D must hate 'The Blower's Daughter' by now..

 

[all that]

Well, it would have been fine if they only kept it for one season, but recycling the SP and LP and Exhibition music is abit much.. I think D/D must hate 'The Blower's Daughter' by now..

I know I do.

 

[chuckm]

BTW, what is it with the Canadian skaters? Except for Mira Leung, they all repeated programs from last season. It seems as if they keep the program for a second season because then they get comfortable with it by its second presentation at Worlds.

I get the feeling that we will see new programs next season from Buttle, Rochette and D/D, but then they will keep the same programs for the Olympics, so as to give themselves an edge over the other skaters.

But that could backfire. Olympic judges tend to expect new programs for the Olympic season ..... :frown2:

Most top skaters don't repeat programs. Thank goodness, because imagine how boring it would be if ALL the skaters did the same as the Canadians.

 

[Winnipeg]

WRT repeating programs..............as I have said in another forum where Chuckie brought this up...............must really bug him.

As a fan, I like watching a great program skated beautifully. If it was last year's music, yes there is a risk of it reducing the impact (recall woltzel and Steuer LP can't recall year) BUT not necessarily. I loved watching D and D program, and Buttle and Leung's repeat did not bother me either. S and P decision to do Love Story was a good one too..............

If a skate wants to take that risk, go for it. IMO, I hope Canadian teams will do whatever they feel they need to do, all things considered, to win..........IMO, I'd rather be on the podium with last year's program than 10th with a new one........................sorry, but that's the game, if you want to win that is...........so what if it is the same program

 

[Ximena]

I read in FSU that ISU may do a jump revision where the skater would have an extra bonus if he/she jumps all the different types of jumps.

I wouldn't say doomed but there are now several elite skaters that have skipped took off one or two type of jumps from their program due their inconsistent on it. I imagine if it's a considerable bonus, then yes some skaters will have some problems if they don't manage to jumps all the different types.

I think it does happen more in the ladies rather than the men right? I think most if not all the men do make all the 5 different jumps (the article in ISU says it won't include a 3ax, I guess any axel will do)

 

[KwanFan1212]

That's the thing.. They were great at this year's worlds, but they were also lucky to medal, cos P/T and K/S left the door open for them.. Furthermore, their lack of a triple twist may really cost them. In fact, everyone else in the top 5 this year has a solid triple twist. Even their canadian teamates L/H are constantly attempting them. So I have my doubts that they will medal next year, especially since the competition will get even fiercer as the Olympics draw nearer.

Actually, Jess & Bryce do a lot of elements in their programs with high quality which also matters with COP. They were all ready getting +GOE on a lot of their other elements in both the SP and LP this year, so they were in great shape to do well at Worlds simply by skating well. Just because a team doesn't have one element doesn't mean they're doomed for next season. IIRC, I believe I read somewhere that they were working on the triple twist last season but stopped after the 4CC accident. I believe they'll have that element for next season and I think they're one of the teams I'm least worried about because they seem to have their heads on very straight.

 

[chuckm]

If a skate wants to take that risk, go for it. IMO, I hope Canadian teams will do whatever they feel they need to do, all things considered, to win..........IMO, I'd rather be on the podium with last year's program than 10th with a new one........................sorry, but that's the game, if you want to win that is...........so what if it is the same program

The fact is that nearly all the top skaters present at least a new FS every season, and there haven't been many that repeated a FS for the Olympics. So when skaters DO repeat programs, they stand out and may invite special scrutiny.

The problem is that the programs get repeated throughout the GP over two years, in addition to being repeated at Worlds. By the time the Olympics roll around, all of the judges will have seen the program many times, and they will expect the skater to be able to execute the program perfectly, given the repetition.

That is where the danger lies: if a much-repeated program is not skated perfectly, the judges can be stingy with the +GOE and the PCS scores. I also think the Judges consider the Olympics a very special event, and they more or less expect the skaters to showcase new programs, not retreads.

 

[fumie_fumie]

The fact is that nearly all the top skaters present at least a new FS every season, and there haven't been many that repeated a FS for the Olympics. So when skaters DO repeat programs, they stand out and may invite special scrutiny.

The problem is that the programs get repeated throughout the GP over two years, in addition to being repeated at Worlds. By the time the Olympics roll around, all of the judges will have seen the program many times, and they will expect the skater to be able to execute the program perfectly, given the repetition.

That is where the danger lies: if a much-repeated program is not skated perfectly, the judges can be stingy with the +GOE and the PCS scores. I also think the Judges consider the Olympics a very special event, and they more or less expect the skaters to showcase new programs, not retreads.

Shizuka Arakawa skated to the 2004 LP for 2006 Olympics. She also had the same jump layout: she just added more non-jump elements to get more points under CoP.

There are some valid reasons skaters keep the same programs
- Jeff skated only 3 competitions in 2006-2007, so both his SP and LP are relatively under-used.
- Joannie kept her LP, as she was concentrated on 3-3. And she is very close to getting it. I remember you saying she is too old for this, but she proved your point invalid at 4CC - it was very close.
- Dube/Davidson: they had the horrendous accident at 4CC in 2007. They including their coaching team saw sport psychologists on a regular basis to get over it. It would have been nice if they had two new programs. However, they are courageous just sticking with the sport.
- Shawn Sawyer also kept his LP, as he needs to get his 3A and 3Lutz down (I am afraid that he really plateaued in his technicality though).
- Patrick Chan: he kept his LP for the same reason as Shawn's. Unlike Shawn, he has done a great job with 3A and perhaps he pushed himself too hard for a second 3A at Worlds. And as you compare his jump layout this year from the last year, you can see it is completely different and choreography has also changed as well.

There are a lot of skaters who skated to new programs
In pairs name a few
- Duhamel/Buntin: they didn't start together until July 2007
- Langlois/Hay
- The Moscovitches
- Kirkland/Radford

In Men's
- Vaughn Chipeur
- Chris Mabee
- Marc Andre Craig
- Kenny Rose
- Jeremy Ten
- Joey Russel
- Maxim-Billy Fortin
and many others

in Ladies'
- Myriane Samson
- Mira Leung

in Dance
- VM
- Weaver/Poje
- McCurdy/Coreno
- Crone/Poirier
and pretty much everyone else.

It is just a blanket statement to say Canadian skaters do this or that. Remember what Dragonlady said about Michelle Kwan. Yes, she changed her programs every year, but she watered down the choreo substantially, which resulted in Lori Nichole unwilling to do choreo for her. So what is better, changing programs every year with little in-between elements or keeping the same program for two years and perfecting it? Your call.

 

[demarinis5]

Remember what Dragonlady said about Michelle Kwan. Yes, she changed her programs every year, but she watered down the choreo substantially, which resulted in Lori Nichole unwilling to do choreo for her. So what is better, changing programs every year with little in-between elements or keeping the same program for two years and perfecting it? Your call.

I have to tell you this is the first time I heard that Lori Nichole was unwilling to do choreo for Kwan. Is this fact or just a poster's opinion?

 

[chuckm]

There are some valid reasons skaters keep the same programs
- Jeff skated only 3 competitions in 2006-2007, so both his SP and LP are relatively under-used.

He had a better reason to keep the old program than most, but what was with chucking the new SP and going back to an old on

- Joannie kept her LP, as she was concentrated on 3-3. And she is very close to getting it. I remember you saying she is too old for this, but she proved your point invalid at 4CC - it was very close.

Keeping an old program because you're trying a 3/3 is not a valid reason. And she was trying the 3/3 in the SP, which was her NEW program. 4CC was a decent attempt, but it was not successful. So now does this mean she keeps the SP for still another year, until she gets the 3/3? Or will she keep the FS until she skates it cleanly?

- Dube/Davidson: they had the horrendous accident at 4CC in 2007. They including their coaching team saw sport psychologists on a regular basis to get over it. It would have been nice if they had two new programs. However, they are courageous just sticking with the sport.

I would think just the opposite: if a program has unpleasant associations, why not get a new program the following season. At Skate America, TT/MM had a far worse accident than D/D, and they were off the ice for most of that season, but they didn't keep those same programs but had new programs the following year.

- Shawn Sawyer also kept his LP, as he needs to get his 3A and 3Lutz down (I am afraid that he really plateaued in his technicality though).
- Patrick Chan: he kept his LP for the same reason as Shawn's. Unlike Shawn, he has done a great job with 3A and perhaps he pushed himself too hard for a second 3A at Worlds. And as you compare his jump layout this year from the last year, you can see it is completely different and choreography has also changed as well.

Keeping an old program because you're trying to 'get a jump down' doesn't make much sense. What if Sawyer NEVER gets his 3A and 3Z consistent---does that mean he skates the same programs into eternity? Seems to me what happens there is the skater is so USED to failing that he will fail again on the same music cue. Better to move on to new music and neutral associations.

In Chan's case, the problem was the choreography was too difficult for him to execute in the first season, and he was trying to do too many things at once when he was too young (only 15-16)---move up to the GP, get the 3A, skate to complex music.

There are a lot of skaters who skated to new programs

I said most of the TOP Canadian skaters stayed with old programs, and that is true. I also said Mira was the exception----but then Mira had stayed with her previous FS for several years so she was due for a new program.

Ice Dancers don't repeat old programs: there is a new OD every year, and no ice dance team would repeat an old program because they'd be marked way down by the judges.

All of the other skaters you mentioned are not top skaters and some of them have never competed at the World level.

But Buttle, Chan Rochette and D/D ARE the top Canadian skaters in each of their disciplines, and they all repeated last years' programs.

Remember what Dragonlady said about Michelle Kwan. Yes, she changed her programs every year, but she watered down the choreo substantially, which resulted in Lori Nichole unwilling to do choreo for her. So what is better, changing programs every year with little in-between elements or keeping the same program for two years and perfecting it? Your call.

What has Michelle Kwan to do with the topic of this thread? She is a 9-time US Champion, a 5-time World Champion and a two-time Olympic medalist. Whatever she was doing, it was the right thing for her. Irina Slutskaya didn't have great choreography either, and she did just fine on the World stage.

Joannie Rochette did the same FS two years in a row and STILL could not execute the program cleanly. Choreography is there to highlight the skills the skater brings to the table, not to demonstrate how difficult a choreographer can make a program. If the programs are so difficult that skaters have to repeat them year after year in order to try for a clean skate, then perhaps the choreography is the problem.

 

[Winnipeg]

Again........................who cares if it is the same program - skaters should do whatever, in their judgement, will give the them the best chance of WINNING

Seems to me that the complaint re the top Canadian skaters may be a tad sour grapes as the approach seemed to work quite well for them................:agree:

oh, and S and P made a great decision to repeat their Love Story for 2002...........................

 

[chuckm]

Again........................who cares if it is the same program - skaters should do whatever, in their judgement, will give the them the best chance of WINNING

Seems to me that the complaint re the top Canadian skaters may be a tad sour grapes as the approach seemed to work quite well for them................:agree:

It worked well for Buttle, but Chan had his worst FS of the season at Worldds, D/D didn't WIN Pairs, and Joannie Rochette didn't win a medal.

oh, and S and P made a great decision to repeat their Love Story for 2002...........................

I think they would have won from the getgo had they NOT repeated that old program. Instead, they had to whine and handwring their way to a duplicate gold.

 

[fumie_fumie]

It worked well for Buttle, but Chan had his worst FS of the season at Worldds, D/D didn't WIN Pairs, and Joannie Rochette didn't win a medal.
I think they would have won from the getgo had they NOT repeated that old program. Instead, they had to whine and handwring their way to a duplicate gold.

Joannie didn't medal. However, this year's worlds was her best Worlds' ever. This is quite a respectable performance considering the field entrenched with Asian jumpers.

As for SP, they didn't whine per se, Wasn't that Olympics held in your great Country? Then, who are these people that booed at the judges in the arena? I guess they were all Canucks occupying the seats?

Weren't the judges' behind the scene deal going on before the events? Didn't this judging become a catalyst for revamping the existing 6.0 system? Aha, this is in the same vein as your favourite former-sovient-union, iron-clad, juding conspiracy, right?

Don't you think it is too a simple statement to say that SP whined their way to the Olympic gold. I know that you know you can do better.

 

[Mathman]

Remember what Dragonlady said about Michelle Kwan. Yes, she changed her programs every year, but she watered down the choreo substantially, which resulted in Lori Nichole unwilling to do choreo for her.

Oh, goodness, no! The last program that Lori Nichol choreographed for Michelle Kwan was The Song of the Black Swan. Watered down? Here it is, from 2001 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-giuubI24m

Do you think that the Red Violin was watered down choreographically? Arianne's Lament? Lyra Angelica? Taj Mahal? Salome?

Then there are the short programs (which, in my opinion, comprise collectively the finest body of work that any ice choreographer has ever achieved): Romanza, Dream of Desdemona, Rachmaninov, Fate of Carmen, East of Eden. In every year that they worked together, the Nichol/Kwan team produced something new and wonderful. Examples are the introduction of the Charlotte into competitive figure skating for the first time in 1998-99, the high kicks in the Fate of Carmen SP, and the split falling leaf into a change of edge spread eagle in East of Eden exhibition program.

Maybe Dragonlady is confusing Lori Nichol's programs with those of Morosov, Christopher Dean and others in the last three years of Michelle's competitive career. (?)

As for Nichol being "unwilling to do choreo for [Michelle]," ... um ... well... I don't think so.