Who is the greatest COMPETITOR?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kwan gave her all in 1994 when she added an extra 3T to topple Lu Chen. That was the beginning of Kwan's exercise into being a great competitor.

How many other skaters in their first Worlds have proved to be a great competitor? Otherwise I agree, it does take time, but not for Kwan it was immediate.

Joe

 

[R.D.]

This doesn't prove anything but Kimmie was definitely solid in 06. :yes:

But of course it's way too soon to tell whether she truly is a great competitor. So far looks promising, though.

 

[chuckm]

About Kimmie---there is other evidence that she has the makings of a great competitor.

2004 JGPF. After the SP, Kimmie was in 7th place, only ahead of Meghan Duhamel and Nana Takeda. She was the 3rd skater in the FS, and scored 90.93. That score stood up until Mao Asada skated, and Kimmie won the bronze medal after being virtually out of it after the SP.

US Nationals 2006. After the SP, having blown the combination, Kimmie was in 4th place, behind Cohen, Hughes and Liang. She buckled down and scored 116 points in the FS to win silver and a secure Olympic berth.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Sorry, I don't see Kwan as one step down from the greatest competitors. She skated BRILLIANTLY at the 1998 Olympics, so it was no disgrace to win silver there with that performance (which would certainly have won gold in 2006).

I disagree that she skated brilliantly. I think she skated conservatively, which is why she lost the gold medal.

Any skater who can win 5 World Championships, 9 US Championships and 2 Olympic medals HAS to be considered one of the greatest competitors of all times.

The title of the thread is "Who is the greatest competitor?" not "Who are the greatest competitors? If I were making a list, Kwan would be among the greatest, but in my hierarchy of values, Witt was a greater competitor than she.

If you're going to deny Kwan as a great competitor, then you have to strike Irina Slutskaya from the list as well, since she won only two World Championships and didn't win any of the 3 Olympics at which she competed. AND ELvis Stojko, who never won the OGM.

If you read my post carefully, I said "I don't think Slutskaya is the greatest competitor, either. She was brilliant with a lead (placements under 6.0, points under CoP), but not brilliant from behind or in close contests." I wouldn't put Slutskaya in the same league as Kwan for the reasons I gave; although I think her string of European titles was the equivalent of Kwan's string as US champion, I don't think her performances at Worlds, GPF, or Olympics was as strong.

I mentioned Stojko in another context, as a competitor who was injured and could not skate his best at the Olympics. (Same with Browning and Cadavy [illness].) In my original post, I listed Plushenko as the greatest competitor among the men, not Stojko.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Kwan's first worlds was in 1994, and she placed a very respectable 8th. In 1994, after a seven-triple performance, she placed 4th. It was at her third worlds, in 1996, that she beat Lu Chen for the World title. (Navka/Kostomarov also went from 4th [2003] to 1st [2004]; I believe Torvill and Dean did in a time that was more rigid, hierarchically.) Out of the gate, Meissner has a better first WC's record than Kwan, but that alone doesn't determine a career, and it is unlikely that Kwan would have placed better than Meissner did in Torino had Kwan competed at Lillehammer.

Plushenko was on the world podium in 1998 (bronze); was that his worlds debut?

 

[Mathman]

Kwan's first worlds was in 1994, and she placed a very respectable 8th....Out of the gate, Meissner has a better first WC's record than Kwan...

I'm not sure what point is being made in this comparison. Michelle was 13 when she placed a respectable 8th at senior worlds in 1994 (she also won junior worlds that year).

 

[SeaniBu]

...also 2004 Kimmie had a 8 triple pro at 14. MK a 7 compete / ever??? Kimmie a JGP at 14. I could be wrong but the the 8 triple pro was tried by Michelle and she fell?? Not sure. Kimmie started skating at 6, MK at age 5, MK did not ever have a 3a either. I don't know but comparing is getting "STRANGE" for me and I have a hard time understanding this now. Oh well.

IOW, MK may have set a standard of sorts, and will anyone ever live up to it? Don't think that is a possibility if she is paralleled with MK, the time and career are different. IMO Kimmie could be the ******* if there was not a constant comparison saying it can't be unless she does it just like MK. And like wise with compairing the "other" way to. MK's pic will hang on my wall for as long as I have a say, but Kimmie's is going to get on there next to Fumie and Ira soon.

Ah the guilt for being. It is hard not to try to respect everyone constantly, but something has got to give.

It's all good, and all are different.

 

[attyfan]

I'm not sure what point is being made in this comparison. Michelle was 13 when she placed a respectable 8th at senior worlds in 1994 (she also won junior worlds that year).

IMO, that Kwan could end up in the top ten, at the age of 13, when she was the sole US lady (Nicole Bobek not getting out of qualifying) at Worlds, only a few days after Tonya pleaded guilty, says something about her competitive nerve, especially under unusual pressure. That Kimmie was able to win her first Worlds says a great deal about her skill, but since the pressure on her may well have been much less (every one expected Sasha to win), her first Worlds may not be a reliable guide to Kimmie's nerve -- yet. IMO, Kimmie showed her nerve much more with her comeback skate at SA than she did at Worlds.

 

[blue dog]

I think we are seeing the last of the dominant skaters. What we will see in the future will be people who "dominate" for a year, then are beaten by someone else. There will be no more Witt, Kwan, Yamaguchi, Plushenko, Yagudin, Dmitriev, or Grischuk/Platov. We will probably have four world champions in each discipline heading into the next Olympics -- all four will battle it out for Gold.

That being said, I think Shen and Zhao deserve to be on this list. They haven't won Olympic gold, but the way they are skating, they're like the Kwans of pairs. It's almost like they came back BETTER than they were before their respective injuries.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I'm not sure what point is being made in this comparison. Michelle was 13 when she placed a respectable 8th at senior worlds in 1994 (she also won junior worlds that year).

I forgot to quote Joesitz' post to which I was replying:

"Kwan gave her all in 1994 when she added an extra 3T to topple Lu Chen. That was the beginning of Kwan's exercise into being a great competitor.

How many other skaters in their first Worlds have proved to be a great competitor? Otherwise I agree, it does take time, but not for Kwan it was immediate.

Joe"

 

[R.D.]

I think we are seeing the last of the dominant skaters. What we will see in the future will be people who "dominate" for a year, then are beaten by someone else. There will be no more Witt, Kwan, Yamaguchi, Plushenko, Yagudin, Dmitriev, or Grischuk/Platov. We will probably have four world champions in each discipline heading into the next Olympics -- all four will battle it out for Gold.

I'm not sure that's true. It's just that now the playing field seems to have evened a tremendous amount, and there are lots of contenders now instead of just one or two.

I also think we are just beginning the post Kwan/Slutskaya era and it's too soon to tell whether there'll be another dominant figure. But in 20 years? I bet you there'll be SOMEBODY.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I would not be surprised if Domnina/Shabalin were dominant from 2008-2010 and then beyond, even more than Navka/Kostomarov were from 2004-6.

I don't forsee a dominant singles skater or pairs team to be dominant in this Olympic cycle, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

 

[Jaana]

As the question was about who is the greatest competitor, I have to say Witt. I did not choose her just because of her two Olympic gold medals, but as she had such a very strong competitive spirit. Nobody in any discipline does not even come close, in my opinion.

Of course there are lots and lots of skaters who have been good competitors (in no particular order): Kwan, Slutskaya, Plushenko, Yagudin, Gritschuk & Platov, Shen & Zhao, Gordeeva & Grinkov, etc.

Generally speaking, to me the sport of figure skating is a lot more interesting to watch if there is no dominant skater(s) who are winning almost all the time during years and years. I love to watch competitions where one does not know beforehand who is going to win!

 

[krenseby]

As the question was about who is the greatest competitor, I have to say Witt. I did not choose her just because of her two Olympic gold medals, but as she had such a very strong competitive spirit. Nobody in any discipline does not even come close, in my opinion.

Of course there are lots and lots of skaters who have been good competitors (in no particular order): Kwan, Slutskaya, Plushenko, Yagudin, Gritschuk & Platov, Shen & Zhao, Gordeeva & Grinkov, etc.

Generally speaking, to me the sport of figure skating is a lot more interesting to watch if there is no dominant skater(s) who are winning almost all the time during years and years. I love to watch competitions where one does not know beforehand who is going to win!

Unfortunately, that hasn't happened at the US Nationals for quite a while. Not since Lipinski vs. Kwan anyway. This year is no exception. No one expects a serious challenge to Kimmie Meissner.

 

[kajsa]

As the question was about who is the greatest competitor, I have to say Witt. I did not choose her just because of her two Olympic gold medals, but as she had such a very strong competitive spirit. Nobody in any discipline does not even come close, in my opinion.

Of course there are lots and lots of skaters who have been good competitors (in no particular order): Kwan, Slutskaya, Plushenko, Yagudin

All time

I agree with you, Jaana. I was also thinking these skaters when I saw this thread.

This season

During this season there have been some skaters who have really impressed me with they competitivness but I wouldn't put them into my all time list, at least not yet. Still, I think they are worth mentioning here: Miki Ando, Sarah Meier, Daisuke Takahashi, Nobunari Oda and Brian Joubert and maybe Kimmie Meissner, maybe.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Whoops. There I go again getting dates mixed up. I do not have a personal library of figure skating. So it was Kwan in 96 where she showed her competitiveness by changing her program to win over Lu Chen. that's still showing such ingenuity in an early part of a career.

I agree Kwan was not 'brilliant' in 98. Skated beautifully, yes! but not competitively. How bad the toe was, we don't know but had she skated after Lipinski she would have gritted the teeth despite the toe, and did her 3tx3t.

Naming a great competitor seems to be the problem with these posts. There are those who can name great competitors and those who can only react with negativity. If only the posters with negative reactions would complete their thoughts and name at least one great competitor, and show why, it would make for a more interesting thread.

Joe

 

[76olympics]

Plushenko, Witt, Boitano, Rodnina and partners, Kwan, G and G... I like some of these much more than others, but I think they were often sparked by competition rather than cowed. I almost think Witt was an overachiever in competition which is counter to the natural bent for most.

I have to list Sonja Henie there too. I saw one of her peers say that she had never seen any skater as confident and free of error ( in the standard of the times) as Sonja. She said she waited in vain for Sonja to have a bad day or a cold . It never happened.

 

[Mathman]

...also 2004 Kimmie had a 8 triple pro at 14.

(?) Will you remind me of what event this was at, and what her list of jumps was? You can't do 8 triples without a triple Axel, and the only time Kimmie has landed a triple Axel was at 2005 Nationals.

MK a 7 compete / ever???

I'm not completely sure what question you are asking here, but if you want to know how many times Michelle landed 7 clean triples, the answer is eleven (the first being 1995 Worlds).

I could be wrong but the the 8 triple pro was tried by Michelle and she fell??

Again, my memory fails me in trying to recollect this performance.

 

[SeaniBu]

(?) Will you remind me of what event this was at, and what her list of jumps was? You can't do 8 triples without a triple Axel, and the only time Kimmie has landed a triple Axel was at 2005 Nationals.

I should probably be chastised for doing so, but I received that info from SashaFans and it came via - http://www.libertyskating.org It was sounding like it was competition but I don't know if it was or what. Just that it was in 2004

I'm not completely sure what question you are asking here, but if you want to know how many times Michelle landed 7 clean triples, the answer is eleven (the first being 1995 Worlds).Again, my memory fails me in trying to recollect this performance.

Well me too, I didn't know for sure and hope it didn't sound like I did, just that was something I thought I heard - she tried an 8 3 pro) which I believe I said but guess it wasn't taken as a question. Did she ever try the 3a??? I don't know, that is why I phased it as a question (I was thinking if anyone would know...).:agree: As far as I can tell it just wouldn't count as getting jump points, and what little I do know about how / why elements are put in, it might have been something in attempts to gain in "GoE." Only a guess for I give the benefit of the doubt when reading most until I hear different and sometimes I never do. For all I really know It could have been a typo that someone corrected after I had read it. - and it was not at GS.

I think my poor wording or whatever, kinda missed the point, I was more trying to say Kimmie is on her way to this "greatness" IMO and how weird it is to compare these things as being "one better then the other." Which I don't know what the comparison was meant as as much as the context of the thread would indicate it was "one being greater then the other." I think once Kimmie has been around long enough for the length of time and achievements there in, at that point it could be a fairer comparison at that point. Like putting Jake Cutlers stats up against John Elway's complete career.

Once again I should be aware that if I say anything other than I love MK, I am going to get it. Maybe with the new year upon me I will learn to steer clear of MK topics. I even have gotten flack on a forum I never even posted on for saying she did a "hop / jump" (which I probably should have phased as a "skip thingingy") at Denver COI, but likely still would have gotten flack even though I know for sure both skates left the ground (maybe a foot high) as she turned (not spun, just faced forward from going backward) in the air. Interesting I never heard anything about catching her toepick during the finale from one who said they were there?

I doubt I will ever say anything regarding MK again - even questions - and go back to having vague and non-substance posts (if I ever did anyway) so I am just ignored.:agree:

Happy New Year Everyone! - because it is the first post for me this year.

 

[kyla2]

Michelle Kwan

One of the most important characteristics of a great comeptitor is the longevity of their skating competitively at the very top of the field. Besides Henie (who had no real competition), the only one that has done that is Kwan. Witt came in and out. Lipinski was here and then gone. Same with Sara.

Kwan's longevity in competitive women's skating at the very top is almost unmatched. Henie had no real competition-they were walkovers.

Michelle added on to her programs at the last minute in order to shut the door on the other skaters (Worlds-Chen Lu). She didn't engage in bogus psych outs like some competitors (that we shall leave nameless) to win. She won through sheer determination, skill, and "eye of the tiger" nerves.

Kwan also came from third to win the gold at World's- few skaters have ever done that.

A few times she came from behind to win the LP, even though she couldn't win the gold. THAT'S a REAL competitor. She never gave up no matter where she was after the SP.

She has more medals than any other U.S. skater.

She skated a gold medal worthy program in the 1998 Olympics in what is considered the finest two women's programs ever skated in any Olympics.

She tried again in her second Olympics and was even shooting for a third. Skaters don't get much more competitive than that.

Since she has left the competitive scene, support and viewership has fallen considerably for the sport. That is because the public and sponsors could count on one heck of a competition if Michelle showed up.

She has refused to join cheesfest skating shows for the long term because it is not competitive and lacks the sense of accomplishment she thrives on. Instead she is going to college-another competitive scene.

So in short, she has dominated the women's figure skating for many years, in a manner which has yet to be equalled by any skater, anywhere. That's a competitor.