Who is the greatest COMPETITOR? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Who is the greatest COMPETITOR?

SeaniBu, I apologize for coming off as a mean, nasty Kwaniac. My intention was quite the opposite.

In my post #46 I was trying to say that there is no point in making comparisons between Kimmie's and Michelle's early career -- the same as you are saying.

But even that was based on a misunderstanding of Hockeyfan's earlier response to Joe's comments...

Oh, never mind. :)

Anyway, I'm sorry if I took the wrong tone.

-----------------------

NOW... is Kimmie destined to be regarded as one of the all-time steely-nerved competitors? She can get started at Worlds next month. If she can take Yu-na Kim and Mao Asada to school, she's on her way!
 
One of the most important characteristics of a great comeptitor is the longevity of their skating competitively at the very top of the field. Besides Henie (who had no real competition), the only one that has done that is Kwan. Witt came in and out. Lipinski was here and then gone. Same with Sara.

I agree with you about Kwan, and to a certain extent about the importance of longevity. However I must totally disagree with you about Witt. She was not some flash in the pan. She won two Olympic gold medals — and skated internationally on the amateur stage winning medals before and in-between. That's a long (and distinguished) career.
 
One of the most important characteristics of a great comeptitor is the longevity of their skating competitively at the very top of the field. Besides Henie (who had no real competition), the only one that has done that is Kwan. Witt came in and out. Lipinski was here and then gone. Same with Sara. Kwan's longevity in competitive women's skating at the very top is almost unmatched. Henie had no real competition-they were walkovers.

Sonia Henie was competing in the 30s, when the knowledge of FS tecniques was limited. If she competed today I'm sure she would have mastered all 5 kind of triples, good at spins, spirals and choreography. At the time she was so ahead from the other skaters.
Katarina Witt didn't came in and out, as you have said! If I'm not wrong she won 6 Euros between 1983 and 1988, 4 Worlds between 1984 and 1988 and two Olympics. If this not longevity and always being at the top!!! She didn't meltdown and she had always the determination to win. She was good at strategy too.
 
Witt did NOT win 5 worlds in that time. Thomas won the 1986 Worlds in there and was a close 2nd in 87
 
Witt did NOT win 5 worlds in that time. Thomas won the 1986 Worlds in there and was a close 2nd in 87

If you read more carefully you'll see that I've written that she won 4 Worlds. ;)
 
Last edited:
The great competitor is the one who always been able to FIGHT for the possibly best performance, when it was needed, even nit in top form.

Katarina Witt, Brian Boitano, Alexei Yagudin, Irina Rodnina, Klimova-Ponomarenko ( who seemed to loose the OGM in 1992, and they made a fantastic performance in the style of the Duschesnays, which showed the enormous technical difference between the 2 top couples, what a good idea that was!!!!).
 
SeaniBu, I apologize for coming off as a mean, nasty Kwaniac. My intention was quite the opposite.
Thanks, but not really necessary in that I feel the way I worded things, was poor and at blame for misunderstandings. I was really trying to expand your point (although I am more "edgy" when talking about "the Ambasitor" then most) but it came off being .... well different, and believe that to be my fault.

NOW... is Kimmie destined to be regarded as one of the all-time steely-nerved competitors? She can get started at Worlds next month. If she can take Yu-na Kim and Mao Asada to school, she's on her way!
That is what I believe COULD happen. I hope the development of her ice presents continues to grow and IMO she will be one of the greatest "personalities" to spawn from FS. But time will tell, this post comes up 8 years from now and Kimmie stayed on the course she is on now and.... well you get my drift. As far as the "mind game" portion of FS is concerned, she is already :rock: solid.
 
Since I don't have a long knowledge of skaters, I can only comment on those I've seen & remember as standouts in the mental game...

Katarina Witt... simply awesome.
Michelle Kwan... the Greatest of All Time.
Irina Slutskaya... proof of mind over matter.
Tara Lipinski... balls to the wall everytime...
Brian Botano... did this man even have nerves?
 
Uh, I Don't Think So

Katarina Witt did not have the longevity of Michelle Kwan-not even close. No one called her a flash in the pan, but she was in and out and she didn't have the medal count Michelle had. She also resorted to cheesy mind games (which only undermined her reputation), something a real competitor never would have done. Sonia Henie do a 5 or 7 triple jump program-PLEASE. Did you ever see film of her skating? I have. There is no way for you to predict what Henie could or could not have done. It's a moot and irrelevant point-what she might have done. What Kwan did do, is there for all to see. As Kwanfordwife said, she is the greatest of all time from any skating perspective.
 
It's difficult to compare skaters from different eras because the standards (for winning) were different then. What about the other way- some of today's skaters skating back in the 80s or 90s? It's just impossible to tell.
 
I agree Kwan was not 'brilliant' in 98. Skated beautifully, yes! but not competitively. How bad the toe was, we don't know but had she skated after Lipinski she would have gritted the teeth despite the toe, and did her 3tx3t.

I think the "foot/toe" thing was a lie. Lipinski was doing two Lutzes and two Loops in her Long Program, so that's what Frank Caroll told Kwan she had to do. Kwan wasn't good enough to consistently do any kind of Triple/Triple combination other than the Toeloop/Toeloop, so the only way for her to do the exact same number of jumps as Lipinski was to drop the 3Toe/3Toe and plan 8 jumping passes. To not make it look obvious, they came up with the foot excuse.

~Z
 
IIRC, MK had to withdraw from her third GP event -- and the GPF -- because of her injury, and she had to submit medical documentation for that, didn't she? At that time (prior to the Nagano Olys) she wasn't anywhere near the draw that she became in later years, so I don't think either the ISU or the USFS would cut her any slack if she wasn't really injured.

Also, what jumps did Tara do at Nats in '98? IIRC, she did her 2 lutzes and her 2loops -- and lost to MK, anyway.
 
I believe Tara fell on the 2A in her SP. That was what cost her the '98 US title.
 
I think the "foot/toe" thing was a lie. Lipinski was doing two Lutzes and two Loops in her Long Program, so that's what Frank Caroll told Kwan she had to do. Kwan wasn't good enough to consistently do any kind of Triple/Triple combination other than the Toeloop/Toeloop, so the only way for her to do the exact same number of jumps as Lipinski was to drop the 3Toe/3Toe and plan 8 jumping passes. To not make it look obvious, they came up with the foot excuse.

~Z

Well... you know what Thought got right? Followed a cart & thought it was a wedding...

By all accounts, Michelle's toe was injured. But whatever. As for her arsenal of jumps, per Christine Brennan's book focused on the 98 games, there is a passage that refers to Team Tara freaking out a bit because Michelle was planning on substituting a combo for the 3lutz/3loop because of her toe.

However, if its more important to feel it was a lie because it fits better with a specific theroy, then I say have it... even if you're wrong...
 
While there are many great competitors in recent memory that come to mind, my personal choice for greatest ever women singles competitor is Katarina Witt. I cant think of anybody else who came up with any many clean performances under the most intense pressure. There is a reason that women has won 6 of the 7 World/Olympic titles from 84-88. When she skated before a chief rival, or more then one chief rival she would put down something that dared you to beat her. Usualy her chief competitor to follow would blink, happened to Sumners in 84 Olympics, happened to Chin at 85 Worlds, happened to Ivanova at the 85 and 86 Europeans to think of a few examples. When she skated right after a chief rivals strong performance she would rise to the occasion and trump them as she did to Ivanova at the 85 Worlds, as she did to Kadavy and Thomas at the 87 Worlds. She also was able to intimidate her competitors in warmups and practices, she was a master at taking charge when in the vacinity of her competitors, and manipulating the setting to her advantage, also getting inside their heads.

For the men I would have to say Elvis Stojko would be my first choice. Again very rare for him to crack under pressure one bit. Only at the 93 and 96 Worlds in the short program did this happen during his prime of 91-98(well 91-93 were probably not really his prime but when he was healthy). The tougher the situation, the higher the pressure the better he performed. At the 95 Worlds I recall him skating with a major injury occured at practice for the 95 Canadian Nationals. He skated an excellent short program while struggling to land the triple axel all week in practice, one of only 2 guys to do the triple axel-triple toe and ended the short in contention for the gold in 2nd place behind Todd Eldredge(the only other guy to do a triple axel-triple toe). In the free skate Todd had already skated and made a couple of mistakes, downgrading a triple axel-triple toe to a triple axel-double toe and falling on a 2nd triple axel attempt, however Todd finished with a flurry by throwing in an unplanned 3rd triple axel attempt and completing that 2nd triple axel he missed in his first go around. Elvis was under considerable pressure but turned in a brilliant performance on that gimpy leg, with the clincher late upgrading a final triple lutz combination to a triple lutz-triple toe, giving him 8 clean triples to Todd's 7 and 2 triple-triples to Todd's 1 and his 2nd straight World title on a 6-3 split. Some who saw him practice doubted he would even finish the event. Then the 98 Olympics, who can remember that, barely able to walk when the event was over, but determined to skate in the Olympics landing 8 triples and the silver medal, unbelievable. Of course it might have been as foolish as foolhardy as he was never the same skater again as he ended a fairly(for his standards)ordinary final 4 years to close out his career dealing with the aftermath of the injury and younger superstars like Yagudin and Plushenko. I also must point out the 97 Worlds where skating a clean short program where the top 6 contenders all skated cleanly, the quality of the competition left his own excellent skate in 4th place behind Urmanov, Eldredge, and Kulik. Putting aside any self doubts, frusteration, and any dissapointment from that he blew the field away technicaly with the quad toe-triple toe(which he himself landed the first ever of at the GP final a couple months prior)and 8 total clean triples to go with it, and jumped from 4th to 1st; after Eldredge needing to land all 8 triples in his quadless program to have any chance missed his final triple axel attemp twice under serious pressure from the Stojko barrage earlier.
 
Last edited:
Well... you know what Thought got right? Followed a cart & thought it was a wedding...

By all accounts, Michelle's toe was injured. But whatever. As for her arsenal of jumps, per Christine Brennan's book focused on the 98 games, there is a passage that refers to Team Tara freaking out a bit because Michelle was planning on substituting a combo for the 3lutz/3loop because of her toe.

However, if its more important to feel it was a lie because it fits better with a specific theroy, then I say have it... even if you're wrong...

Yeah in a Brennan book(not that I trust Brennan as the most credible source on alot of things but she wouldnt just lye about things that are factual)Kwan was swooshing some triple loop-triple loops in practice of Nationals. In hindsight how I wish she had done that at the Olympic Games, it wouldnt have even been close between her and Lipinski with the same jumps skating cleanly, even with Kwan's supposably "subdued" and "cautious" skate. Of course after Nationals there was no reason for her to think a triple-triple of any kind would be neccessary and who could blame her for thinking that way.
 
I believe Tara fell on the 2A in her SP. That was what cost her the '98 US title.

Did Tara win the FS portion of the event at Nats? I thought she landed her full arsenal of triples and combinations in the FS portion of the event, and still lost to a magical Kwan.
 
Did Tara win the FS portion of the event at Nats? I thought she landed her full arsenal of triples and combinations in the FS portion of the event, and still lost to a magical Kwan.

Kwan blew everyone away in the free skate that year with her record # of 6.0s, 8 of them. In the short skating last of the contenders she had a record # of them for the short program with 7. Her Lyra Angelica free skate, and Rachmaninoff short program, skated at that years Nationals, are still her 2 most famous programs and performances ever.

On Tara he probably means it cost her any shot at all of winning though. She ended up 4th in the short so was out of it pretty much for the gold.
 
I guess I learn something all the time, I was under the belief by commentators, that the only 6.0 the Ambassador received was the cheesfest in 05 for her LP.? Thanks for the correction.:agree:
 
Back
Top