Why did the crowd "suddenly" go crazy over Michelle's footwork?
- Thread starter apache88
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This may be off topic, but it is a real question. Why are many complaining about how "simple" Aranjuez and Tosca are? IMO Michelle plainly stated that she was taking it easy after the Olympics while still competing at Nationals and Worlds. What kind of program were you expecting from someone who was taking a breather if you can call 6 triple programs simple? I didn't expect intricate and complicated so I'm wondering why that's an issue. Is it just to have something to complain about?
Anyway, back on topic. The reason why I went nuts for the footwork is because she had gotten past the difficult jumps and then just kicked into high gear. It was a lot of fun to watch. I almost forgot to take pictures of her ending bow because I was having so much fun.
Anyway, back on topic. The reason why I went nuts for the footwork is because she had gotten past the difficult jumps and then just kicked into high gear. It was a lot of fun to watch. I almost forgot to take pictures of her ending bow because I was having so much fun.
You guys thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Pati and Lucy, I watched the very same clip by ABC. Yes I did notice the roars from the crowd for each of the element performed but it was the footwork sequence that actually brought the house down.
I just thought the footwork sequence in The Red Violin was very interesting, full of energy and it was a shame that it was not appreciated, or so I thought.
Another thing I loved about the footwork sequence in Aranjuez and Tosca is that there was no interuption at all before it started like some of you have pointed out. In fact there was not a single pause in both programs, it was all one continuous movement from the moment she struck her pose at the start of the program till the ending pose. I found it truly amazing, so much energy. Was she actually rewarded for not stopping?
Blurrysarah, I can understand why you felt Tosca was empty before the footwork. I didn't feel the same probably because I'm a die-hard fan, unlike you, I would get drawn to her skating no matter what.
Pati and Lucy, I watched the very same clip by ABC. Yes I did notice the roars from the crowd for each of the element performed but it was the footwork sequence that actually brought the house down.
I just thought the footwork sequence in The Red Violin was very interesting, full of energy and it was a shame that it was not appreciated, or so I thought.
Another thing I loved about the footwork sequence in Aranjuez and Tosca is that there was no interuption at all before it started like some of you have pointed out. In fact there was not a single pause in both programs, it was all one continuous movement from the moment she struck her pose at the start of the program till the ending pose. I found it truly amazing, so much energy. Was she actually rewarded for not stopping?
Blurrysarah, I can understand why you felt Tosca was empty before the footwork. I didn't feel the same probably because I'm a die-hard fan, unlike you, I would get drawn to her skating no matter what.
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- Jul 28, 2003
apache88:
I think Michelle, challenged herself by putting more emphasis on her footwork and it worked.
It gives her skating more "flair." I think Michelle brought her presentation skills up a notch by attacking her footwork.
For example. when Kurt Browning skates a program he dazzles the audience with his magnificent footwork. He is a master. People are focussed on what Kurt is doing on the blade.
Everyone always thinks the emphasis should be on the jumps, but a program is not entirely about jumps. Footwork can really add to a program. It also shows a skaters edge control by being able to perform fast, well skated footwork.
I think Michelle added a new aspect to her skating that may have been overlooked before.
I think Michelle, challenged herself by putting more emphasis on her footwork and it worked.
It gives her skating more "flair." I think Michelle brought her presentation skills up a notch by attacking her footwork.
For example. when Kurt Browning skates a program he dazzles the audience with his magnificent footwork. He is a master. People are focussed on what Kurt is doing on the blade.
Everyone always thinks the emphasis should be on the jumps, but a program is not entirely about jumps. Footwork can really add to a program. It also shows a skaters edge control by being able to perform fast, well skated footwork.
I think Michelle added a new aspect to her skating that may have been overlooked before.
Ladskater said:
ITA, with this statement. I love Kurt's skating before anyone (well except Peggy, who was in the first FS tv show beginning at 80s in China). The reason is what he did with his blades. The fatanstics footworks in his program just grab all my attention. He was the first skater I had followed at any show on TV.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That's it exactly. It's the emotional build-up as she hits one jump after another. The tension keeps growing with each element she stares down. Then when she hits that last one -- perfection! -- the whole audience exhales for the first time and -- Yee-haw! Here we go!mpal2 said:Anyway, back on topic. The reason why I went nuts for the footwork is because she had gotten past the difficult jumps and then just kicked into high gear. It was a lot of fun to watch. I almost forgot to take pictures of her ending bow because I was having so much fun.
I am far from an expert on figure skating. But I know what I like. To me, Aranjuez and Tosca are the same program, just different music is playing. Why mess with perfection? This is a sport, not some sissified ballet. In the first three minutes Michelle exhibits, one after another, each of the weapons in her arsenal -- boom! a triple flip; bang! a triple Salchow; pow! a triple Lutz/double toe. The crowd smells blood! It's a knockout!
Mathman
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- Aug 18, 2003
reply to blurrysarah
Blurrysarah, thank you! I totally agree. I want to see passion and musical expression all through the program, not just during the footwork. This has long been my biggest complaint about Michelle, especially in the years since Nagano--she is too "clinical," "ho-hum," etc. until she gets done with the hard triples. Everything is very precise, but leaves me cold, just as you say. The footwork in Tosca WAS great--it left me wishing the whole program had had that much feeling.
Blurrysarah, thank you! I totally agree. I want to see passion and musical expression all through the program, not just during the footwork. This has long been my biggest complaint about Michelle, especially in the years since Nagano--she is too "clinical," "ho-hum," etc. until she gets done with the hard triples. Everything is very precise, but leaves me cold, just as you say. The footwork in Tosca WAS great--it left me wishing the whole program had had that much feeling.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Hi, Valery Norton. Welcome to the forum!
I don't know. I think it's pretty hard to keep up the same level of passion and dramatic intensity thoughout a whole four minute program. Plus, I don't think that the program as a whole would be as effective. You need both ups and downs. In fact, she could even throw in some "comic relief" so we don't have to be on the edge of our seats for the whole time. (I have a short attention span, LOL.) I do get the sense that Michelle is pacing herself for the first three minutes, allowing the dramatic tension to build slowly until the explosion at the end.
Rather than "clinical" it seems to me that "putting on a clinic" is the right way to describe Michelle's jumps, if that distinction makes sense (?)
Mathman
I don't know. I think it's pretty hard to keep up the same level of passion and dramatic intensity thoughout a whole four minute program. Plus, I don't think that the program as a whole would be as effective. You need both ups and downs. In fact, she could even throw in some "comic relief" so we don't have to be on the edge of our seats for the whole time. (I have a short attention span, LOL.) I do get the sense that Michelle is pacing herself for the first three minutes, allowing the dramatic tension to build slowly until the explosion at the end.
Rather than "clinical" it seems to me that "putting on a clinic" is the right way to describe Michelle's jumps, if that distinction makes sense (?)
Mathman
I did not notice anyone mentioning Candeloro´s "D´Artagnan" footwork in 1997-1998 season? That is the footwork which brought the attention of the audience at the footwork and he got the crowds going in Europeans and Olympics! I would say, that is the programme which started the showy footwork trend and has the honour of being the first to bring the attention back to footwork.
I don´t know why, but I always see some of the Morosov footwork as a combination taken from Candeloro´s "Dartagnan" and Bourne&Kraatze´s "River Dance".
What Kurt Browning (and some other skaters) does on the ice is something totally different, much more difficult and effortless and as such really appreciated by me.
Marjaana
Ilia Kulik photos & photolinks
http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index.html
I don´t know why, but I always see some of the Morosov footwork as a combination taken from Candeloro´s "Dartagnan" and Bourne&Kraatze´s "River Dance".
What Kurt Browning (and some other skaters) does on the ice is something totally different, much more difficult and effortless and as such really appreciated by me.
Marjaana
Ilia Kulik photos & photolinks
http://koti.welho.com/mjylha2/index.html
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- Joined
- Aug 16, 2003
*sigh* I guess I'm going to be a spoilsport with my opinion.......
Michelle's footwork in TFB does incorporate her entire body and is packed with emotion and goes well with the music. To say that she executed it well would be an understatement.
That being said, am I the only one who noticed that it is almost entirely two-footed and turned in only one direction?
It's not as difficult as a lot of the footwork I saw from a wide variety of competitors in Atlanta, and I don't think it's as difficult as the FW Sasha has in Malaguena, but I have to give the girl props for doing what she does so well.
(now ducking and running)
Michelle's footwork in TFB does incorporate her entire body and is packed with emotion and goes well with the music. To say that she executed it well would be an understatement.
That being said, am I the only one who noticed that it is almost entirely two-footed and turned in only one direction?
It's not as difficult as a lot of the footwork I saw from a wide variety of competitors in Atlanta, and I don't think it's as difficult as the FW Sasha has in Malaguena, but I have to give the girl props for doing what she does so well.
(now ducking and running)
mpal2 said:
I don't think it's just to find something to complain about - I mentioned the "simple" thing and I like Michelle's skating. With Michelle's "taking it easy" thing, I thought that was referring to her not doing as many competitions, not to do with the content of her programmes (although maybe it also means the 3-3). When people talk about something like Aranjuez being "simple" as a programme, we're talking about the fact that even though she did 6 triples (not easy, obviously), none had unusual or difficult entries (or exits, for that matter), her spins didn't have a great deal of difficulty in them, and the structure of the programme and content were "simple" - i.e. she didn't have many in-betweens at all, just crossovers and a few simple choreographic arm movements. If you compare Aranjuez with Salome, for example, I'd say Aranjuez is much simpler. Salome had much more variety, originality and difficulty (obviously the jump count was the same, IIRC). She put one of her triples right at the very end, she had a different exit from the 2axel, she had footwork in the *programme* (not just the f/w sequence) and original moves, that fit the music. Aranjuez had nothing like that. Good footwork sequence, yes. But no other filler between the elements. And a programme like that is clearly more simple than a programme with the same elements but much more in between them.
SkateCynic said:*sigh* I guess I'm going to be a spoilsport with my opinion.......
That being said, am I the only one who noticed that it is almost entirely two-footed and turned in only one direction?
It's not as difficult as a lot of the footwork I saw from a wide variety of competitors in Atlanta, and I don't think it's as difficult as the FW Sasha has in Malaguena, but I have to give the girl props for doing what she does so well.
(now ducking and running)
No reason to duck!
Last year were Michelle's first NM programs with a different kind of footwork. Both TFB and Aranjuez, while having difficult footwork, did have a lack of turns. This year's LP has turns in both directions and more edging. Even the footwork in TFB has been changed to be a bit more difficult than last year. What makes the footwork so great the last two seasons, IMO, is the energy she has given it. Few skaters are able to do that.- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Lucy25 said:
I thought the minor footwork change that was made to TFB before nationals was quite an improvement. The footwork sequence just began seamlessly from the preceeding move. It was nice to see her make that upgrade. I wonder what it would have scored under COP, and whether she ended up upgrading it a 'level.' The Tosca footwork sequence is an improvement too.
Personally, I love watching the great new ladies footwork sequences this year (Kwan, Cohen, Liashenko, Sokolova, etc.). It's something I've really enjoyed as a result of COP. It's great.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I can't say how "simple" MK's footwork is because I haven't tried it. Oh to be young again!
It seems to me that the posters who are not fond of MK are in agreement that the footwork is "simple". If that is true, is it Morozov's fault? It also seems that the posters who are fond of MK are not convinced that the footwork if 'simple'. Nothing fascinating here.
As a Kwaniac, I agree that the 'moves in the fields' could use a pep up in her routines. However, the bottom line is that she gets lst place in 2003 and 2004 US Nats as well as gold in 2003 Worlds, and unless there is a complete meltdown she will be on the podium in 2004 at Dortmund Worlds. it seem to me that she is doing something right.
MK's footwork (Morozov's footwork) is a nit picking item, as is her lack of 3x3s; Free leg in spiral is not high enough; slow spins; same choreography every year, etc, etc., etc. For those who are new to GS, all these items will appear right after the Dortmund Worlds and carry us through the summe doldrums. Stick around.
Joe
It seems to me that the posters who are not fond of MK are in agreement that the footwork is "simple". If that is true, is it Morozov's fault? It also seems that the posters who are fond of MK are not convinced that the footwork if 'simple'. Nothing fascinating here.
As a Kwaniac, I agree that the 'moves in the fields' could use a pep up in her routines. However, the bottom line is that she gets lst place in 2003 and 2004 US Nats as well as gold in 2003 Worlds, and unless there is a complete meltdown she will be on the podium in 2004 at Dortmund Worlds. it seem to me that she is doing something right.
MK's footwork (Morozov's footwork) is a nit picking item, as is her lack of 3x3s; Free leg in spiral is not high enough; slow spins; same choreography every year, etc, etc., etc. For those who are new to GS, all these items will appear right after the Dortmund Worlds and carry us through the summe doldrums.
Stick around.Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Nah, everybody noticed that, LOL. Hey, Cynic, long time no post. Good to see you back.SkateCynic said:
I think there might be two reasons why the footwork in The Feeling Begins is not as complicated as the footwork in Tosca (where she does turn in both directions). In addition to what Lucy said, I think that under 6.0 scoring the short program is all about not making mistakes. For a skater at Michelle's level, there must be considerable pressure just to skate a safe program for the short. If someone else skates brilliantly (like Sasha did at Nationals), OK , then you are in second or third place which is just as good as first when you skate for gold on Saturday.
Like VerbalGirl, I can't wait to see what choices Michelle makes if she decides to compete under CoP scoring next year, where every point counts.
The second factor in comparing The Feeling Begins to Tosca (I think it is the Tosca footwork that Apache is asking about on this thread) is that TFB is overall slower, sexier, more dramatic, more playing to the crowd, so a more deliberate footwork sequence would seem quite appropriate, rather than the fireworks of the last minute of Tosca.
Mathman
I, too, cannot wait to see Michelle's programs uder COP! I think she will do the GP, based on comments made by her coach right after Nationals (that if he agreed to coach, she would need to be competative). For the first time in a couple of years, I am actaully looking forward to the beginning of the new season, with the hope to see Michelle and Irina do the series, along with those who participated last fall. There may actually be good competition next season!
I like the intelligent discussion in this thread. One reason why I really like this board!
I like the intelligent discussion in this thread. One reason why I really like this board!
Beleive it or not, she had BOTH new SP and LP choreographed for this season. But she was not seriously considering Nats and Worlds until late Nov. after working with Rafael couple of weeks and seeing the improvement in her skating. At the time she still borthered by her boots (until mid Dec.). It was only 5/6 weeks before the Nats when she decided to compete at Nats. And since the Tosca was not well acceptted by fans, at time they even considering using BOTH last season's SP and LP, it was last min decition to switch back to Tosca at Nats. IMO, this might also explained why two programs appears so 'similar'.
Considering all those changes, I don't think they had enough time working on programs. At the time she was busy to get all her triples and 3T/3T back. She got her 3t/3t back at mid of Dec. but not as consistant enough. Had Sasha skated great, she would risk the 3T/3T at the 3T place as planned. It was the energy she put into her fw that made it different than any lady skater out there. And I agree with Mathman that it was just impossible to keep the high emotion and energy level through out the whole 4 min.
The latest rumor is that she is still working on changing her programs, getting more consistant with diff 3/3s, and improving spins. But Rafael has kept an eye on her not practice too much of 3/3. I hope we'll see some changes in programs.
Considering all those changes, I don't think they had enough time working on programs. At the time she was busy to get all her triples and 3T/3T back. She got her 3t/3t back at mid of Dec. but not as consistant enough. Had Sasha skated great, she would risk the 3T/3T at the 3T place as planned. It was the energy she put into her fw that made it different than any lady skater out there. And I agree with Mathman that it was just impossible to keep the high emotion and energy level through out the whole 4 min.
The latest rumor is that she is still working on changing her programs, getting more consistant with diff 3/3s, and improving spins. But Rafael has kept an eye on her not practice too much of 3/3. I hope we'll see some changes in programs.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Thanks again for the inside info, MZheng. You are a great resource for this board.
To Icenut, about "simple" programs versus "complex" ones: It does seem quite clear that the choreography of Aranjuez and Tosca is streamlined compared to some of the programs that Lori Nichol made for Michelle in the years from 1996 to 2001. I loved those programs. But I like the new Michelle, too. To me, it is a question of a different style, not necessarily a better or a worse one.
The simplified style, to me, is designed to exhibit each element in it's purity. Like a jewel -- do you like a simple setting that emphasizes the precious stone itself, or do you like a more ornate setting which complements it?
I also think that simpler choreography allows the skater better to show off her basic skating skills -- the efficiency of her stroking, the security of her edges, getting "deep into her knees" -- all that sort of thing that is sometimes obscured when too many distractions are going on.
The same question came up in pairs in Salt Lake City, and people are still arguing about it. Do you like the simplicity of Love Story or the complexity of Meditation? To me, both have their charm. So I do not necessarily take it as adverse criticism to say that one program has simpler choreography than another. Sometimes extra little curlicues and flourishes really do not add anything of substance to a program.
Anyway, I agree with Lucy. Next season will be something worth waiting for if Michelle completes, if Irina is fully recovered from her health challenges, if Sasha makes her usual strong start out of the blocks, and if the skaters from Japan continue to push the technical envelope. The ISU, by fine tuning the CoP, will to some extent be able to dictate the kind of program it prefers. This should produce (for better or for worse) more "complex" choreography as skaters try to squeeze out that last tenth of a point. I hope that this will not tend to force all the competitors into the same mold.
Mathman
To Icenut, about "simple" programs versus "complex" ones: It does seem quite clear that the choreography of Aranjuez and Tosca is streamlined compared to some of the programs that Lori Nichol made for Michelle in the years from 1996 to 2001. I loved those programs. But I like the new Michelle, too. To me, it is a question of a different style, not necessarily a better or a worse one.
The simplified style, to me, is designed to exhibit each element in it's purity. Like a jewel -- do you like a simple setting that emphasizes the precious stone itself, or do you like a more ornate setting which complements it?
I also think that simpler choreography allows the skater better to show off her basic skating skills -- the efficiency of her stroking, the security of her edges, getting "deep into her knees" -- all that sort of thing that is sometimes obscured when too many distractions are going on.
The same question came up in pairs in Salt Lake City, and people are still arguing about it. Do you like the simplicity of Love Story or the complexity of Meditation? To me, both have their charm. So I do not necessarily take it as adverse criticism to say that one program has simpler choreography than another. Sometimes extra little curlicues and flourishes really do not add anything of substance to a program.
Anyway, I agree with Lucy. Next season will be something worth waiting for if Michelle completes, if Irina is fully recovered from her health challenges, if Sasha makes her usual strong start out of the blocks, and if the skaters from Japan continue to push the technical envelope. The ISU, by fine tuning the CoP, will to some extent be able to dictate the kind of program it prefers. This should produce (for better or for worse) more "complex" choreography as skaters try to squeeze out that last tenth of a point. I hope that this will not tend to force all the competitors into the same mold.
Mathman
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Mathman said:
I agree to an extent, about the simpler choreography maybe helping to show off Michelle's basic technique and skill, edging, stroking etc. I agree too that this similar argument is one of the aspects of the pairs thing with Meditation vs Love Story. If you ask me which one I prefer, it is definitely Meditation. It's my opinion that all the extra choreography, moves, in betweens, originality, flourishes etc *did* add something that Love Story didn't have. These aspects are supposed to be a part of what figure skating's about. They're one of the things that make it different from other sports - the complexity and variety of movement, the originality, the artistry. That's why I preferred Meditation to Love Story, and why I preferred Salome to Aranjuez.
Meditation and Salome were much more what skating's about, to me - they had the technical elements, but wove them into the programme and the music seamlessly and with beautiful and appropriate choreography. Love Story and Aranjuez had the technical elements, but they were just element to element linked by crossovers - a less difficult structure, and lacking some of the qualities that are supposed to be reflected in the presentation mark. Both were nice programmes, yes, but nothing outstanding, IMO, however well they were performed.
Thanks for the reply icenut.
I guess I looked at it from a different perspective. I expected her to start serious training later in the season than she normally would have. Based on that assumption, I wasn't expecting 3/3's or elaborate choreography so I wasn't disappointed.
I guess I looked at it from a different perspective. I expected her to start serious training later in the season than she normally would have. Based on that assumption, I wasn't expecting 3/3's or elaborate choreography so I wasn't disappointed.
