Why do "full rotations" matter? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why do "full rotations" matter?

I guess I interpreted @el henry 's answer differently. I understood that it was a direct answer to the OP question: "I am an old fan and I've been ignoring jumps for 50 years. Why can't you as a new fan do the same?"
That was what I was confused about. If a person asks (about anything), "Why is it like this?" that seeker after truth might simply want to know why it is like this. In the present instance, I think a useful answer would be ro give a neutral review of the history of figure skating and figure skating judging, especially in the first few years of the IJS.

On the other hand, the question might mean: "This is stupid. Convince me that it's not." A possible answer night be: "Ypu're right, it's stupid." Another possible answer would be, no it's not stupid because that is the nature of sport and sporting rules in general.
 
That was what I was confused about. If a person asks (about anything), "Why is it like this?" that seeker after truth might simply want to know why it is like this. In the present instance, I think a useful answer would be ro give a neutral review of the history of figure skating and figure skating judging, especially in the first few years of the IJS.

On the other hand, the question might mean: "This is stupid. Convince me that it's not." A possible answer night be: "Ypu're right, it's stupid." Another possible answer would be, no it's not stupid because that is the nature of sport and sporting rules in general.
A neutral review is always good for reference. However, it is much more interesting what different people with different experience and different likes/dislikes would say, so... I guess "This is stupid. Convince me that it's not" is closer to the meaning of the question.
Thus far, I best liked the answer:
In an everyday scenario comparison: You go in for knee surgery and they only did 70% of the procedure before closing you back up and going "Yeah, that'll be good enough!"
People tend to forget that this is acrobatics and the ice is slippery. So, a correctly done jump is not just the most aesthetic jump (btw sometimes it isn't; i.e. if there is a bizarre take-off technique that requires a foot dragged on the ice before axel) but it is, above everything, the safest jump (y)
 
For a new fan, I might just say, "Relax and enjoy what you're watching! But also understand that the performance you like best might not be the one that wins. There are rules that are sometimes difficult for even longtime fans to understand or agree with, but you'll learn about those as you go. One of those rules concerns rotation, which means the skater must fully complete the jump in the air before landing. It's hard to see in real time, so they have officials whose job is to make sure that happens or the skater gets penalized."

It's that way for me when I watch ice hockey. I get the general idea of the sport and I enjoy watching every now and then, but I couldn't explain what "icing" means if you held a gun to my head. Or maybe I'm thinking "off sides." Or both.
 
Actually, I question if the jump performed to the expectations of the rulebook is always the safest for every skater. All leet skaters have different biomechanics, huge differences in height, flexibility of knee and ancle, that is forever impacted by injuries. So, if the rules require as much edge showing as possible on take off and landing and a huge knee bend, while achieving straight position in air and tight rotations, it might be a sure way for someone to fall really badly and loose control.

The same goes for emphasis on huge speed. Extreme speed during the program leads the skaters to either having to drop speed during a prolonged entry into the jump (which looks juniorish), or they enter a jump at a too high speed to control take off, rotation and landing that results in an explosive splatter with a huge risk of injury.

A lot of those jumps were historicaly developed when skaters didn't reach 25 km/hrs, when they weren't required to have specific elements in the program and did whatever they liked best.

There are plenty of examples of safe jumpers who use lower speed, straighter knees, weird bends of body when landing instead of the knee and edges that don't lead to the boot tripping them on a groove in the ice. And, like, they are not supposed to look at the ice. How is it safe if they can't see grooves left by the preceedings skaters?
 
I was responding to what was probably a drift in my comment about rotations, and I tend to drift along. Sorry. :)

I don't see rotations in real time. That doesn't mean other people can't, or other people don't appreciate them. I have never, as far as I know, said this is what I like and this is what the rest of the world *should* like too. That's an argument that makes me 🥱:sleep: so I try to avoid using it myself. Of course, no one is perfect. :)
 
The best jumps explode off the ice, THEN rotate, and try to slow down before landing to create an airy quality.

But these days you get rewarded for excessively twisting on the ice into the jump and continuing to rotate fast until the skate hits the ice.
It's unfortunate. I remember being really disappointed when Valieva broke Kosternaia's SP record because the former's toe jumps are not executed nearly well enough to earn top marks. No one at the ISU seems to care though so there's no real disincentive to change that technnique.
 
So in fact we've had several questions.
One is, why underrotations are called at all. Well, then, why would a Quadruple Lutz be worth more than a Single Lutz. Rotation matters or it doesn't.

Then, another question is: why underrotations are called that much. This I think would be a question, and I suppose that it was behind the establishment of the q, but mathematically the q doesn't exist, theoretically 90.001° missing is still an underrotation with 0.8 Base Value and calls, while 89.999° is a mere incomplete rotation. (In practical calls, it seems to depend on who's jumping, but that's quite another matter.) A real q category would name an interval, for instance between 85 and 95° missing. Overall, I agree with Lariko that a well hidden slight underrotation or q shouldn't be penalised beyond the Base Value adjustment, or a more severe GOE call, rather than both. I believe that this aesthetical dissimulation of slight underrotations could be measured automatically in time, but not soon, unlike the rotation itself.

In fact, in the few artistic disciplines I watch, an occasional slip isn't punished much or at all per se, as long as it's well managed so as not to interrupt the flow of the piece. I don't know if you've ever seen a fall by Sylvie Guillem or Svetlana Sakharova, but an untrained eye may not notice it. A fall! Managing falls is a full training in Ballet. (A caveat, is that these Ballerinas are not in a competition as we call it here. The only Ballet competition looking somehow like a Figure Skating big championship, the Prix de Lausanne, would be like a Junior World Championship with younger and older Juniors separated, and with a very significant part of the competition partly streamed only, where the main objective wouldn't be which competitor has the best performed program now, but which are better hearing and understanding and attending to coaching advices by the official coaches of the competition; where some of the best candidates wouldn't participate because they're already enrolled in full training in the training teams the candidates dream to enter; and where the global objective would be for schools to recruit the best Senior Students, rather than to assess the best dancers at the moment.)
Of course managing falls is a full training in Figure Skating too, and from the start; and Novice rules have special calls depending on how long the skater remains down, but there's no incentive on managing them aesthetically (I believe that in the IJS, it ought to be a slight plus in all three Components, depending on how it's managed of course) and I would say, with what I've seen of scoring, I've seen no correlation at all between how a Figure Skater manages a fall, and their Components; to the contrary, the so-called cap (which, being supposed to apply also to skaters not awarded high 9s or 10s, isn't a cap but a deduction in disguise) for "serious error" was a step in the wrong way (all the more when some skaters could fall and not get it, to the point that Lakernik called it facultative; while some others would get a cap for slighter — or invented — errors; always the same skaters) because it was forbidding to consider the skater's skill in managing/concealing the error so as not to impact the aesthetics of the performance. Consequently, while most skaters work on raising again effectively so as to miss as little distance and steps as possible, the aesthetic impact is more rarely worked on. This is, in my opinion, a point where Figure Skating might fail to be artistic enough (it would still be rather technical!)
Nevertheless, a recurrent error in Ballet or Music competitions would be analysed as a flaw and treated more harshly; for instance, the same error in the same jump at both Short and Free Skating, or systematic underrotations. It's not just because it's a sports where athletic prowess is measured, it's also because it is artistic, although there have been immense artists with technical flaws (Anna Pavlova!)
In all artistic disciplines, I believe that technical perfection (or closeness to perfection) is an essential element. Can I take two recent First Dancers at the Mariinsky as an example?
One had a faulty technique and looked blurry even to the untrained eye in spite of his charisma. He got important prizes but the public has always wondered (to be polite) why he had been appointed a First Dancer, for a start; or even a Coryphee.
The other one had been hailed from school for her gorgeous, faultless technique and was announced to be the future Diana Vishneva and recruited by the Mariinsky at the end of her penultimate school year, which is rare. During her last year of school, few noticed that she was already showing signs of rebellion against the minute directions of her mild, patient teacher, and the school team managed to hide it in the graduation show. Once full-time in the Mariinsky, with new coaches, she was promoted to First Dancer in weeks, something never seen, but seemed to be as rebellious to her new coaches. She was still luring many and won prestigious awards. Yet when you dance the part of one of three Bayadere shades you must dance it perfectly in unison with the other two, not throwing your leg higher than their 90° (as part of the Choreography) because, you know, a leg must always point to the Sky... She's still a First Dancer, doing first parts, with a waste of a glorious technique, but still more watchable than the first example thanks to this very technique.
Of course, we're speaking of the whole meaning of technique, also in Figure Skating, not just the types of jumps. Skating Skills; precise, explosive, purposeful, harmonious movements of the whole body, and so on.
 
A real q category would name an interval, for instance between 85 and 95° missing.
Mathematically, though, that doesn't solve the problem. There will still be a skater who under-rotates 95.00001 degrees (and so falls outside the interval) and another who under-rotates by 94.99999 dgegreses (within the interval).

Actually, I like the q. It provides for.a very small penalty for a very slight shortfall. Makes sense to me. As for the 89.9999 case, that's where human judgement comes in, just as in every sport. In horse racing, photo finish technology, while impressive, still is accurate only to about a thousandth of a second, so could not decide the winner between the horse that crossed the finish line at 1 minute 59.4 seconds and the runner up whose time was 1m59.400001 seconds. (For GOAT fans, this is the all-tine record for the prestigious (in the U.S.) Kentucky Derby, set in 1973 by Secretariat and still standing fifty years later. For the artistry crowd, "What a magnificent animal!" )
 
Mathematically, though, that doesn't solve the problem. There will still be a skater who under-rotates 95.00001 degrees (and so falls outside the interval) and another who under-rotates by 94.99999 dgegreses (within the interval).

Actually, I like the q. It provides for.a very small penalty for a very slight shortfall. Makes sense to me. As for the 89.9999 case, that's where human judgement comes in, just as in every sport. In horse racing, photo finish technology, while impressive, still is accurate only to about a thousandth of a second, so could not decide the winner between the horse that crossed the finish line at 1 minute 59.4 seconds and the runner up whose time was 1m59.400001 seconds. (For GOAT fans, this is the all-tine record for the prestigious (in the U.S.) Kentucky Derby, set in 1973 by Secretariat and still standing fifty years later. For the artistry crowd, "What a magnificent animal!" )
The difference is that with an official interval, we have a real three-tier underrotation penalty, while in the present case, with the q being theoretically inexistent, it's still (if scored per the rules) a two-tier penalty. Of course, the fact that there would be "only" a few hundreds pictures per second (let's not call for a faster technology still very expensive) would be compensated by an easy interpolation of the touch point, it could even take into account a possible move upwards of the foot point (with a double sensor). Even an American ballistician could do that, you wouldn't need a Frenchie. Although we're always pleased to oblige. :biggrin:
 
If the penalty for q was actually small and regulated to be small, I will be all fo it. When I see a q jump go from something with +3 GoE to a penalties in big minuses, that's when I have a problem. I think that ifbthe GoE was positive to start with, it should automatically set its GoE to zero, and just give base value
 
(For GOAT fans, this is the all-tine record for the prestigious (in the U.S.) Kentucky Derby, set in 1973 by Secretariat and still standing fifty years later. For the artistry crowd, "What a magnificent animal!" )
For artistry crowd it would be:
a. Secretariat was doped by the Russians. I mean, his name is a dead give away!
b. Secretariat's gait wasn't as pleasing as the gait of the horse that ran the same race in 1957, because it ran too fast.
c. Actually, they don't care at all how fast Secretariat ran, or who won the race. The other horse who came in seventh have the best gait and expression of any horse who ran. Secretariat should go and learn to run. It was made to win by the unfair rules that give too much points for speed.
d. The crowds at the hippodrome are diminishing year after year because horses ran too fast after Secretariat and pay no attention to how pleasing their gait is.
e. Don't you know? Secretariat is to blame for the injury of every horse ever since as it tried to run as fast.
 
If the penalty for q was actually small and regulated to be small, I will be all fo it. When I see a q jump go from something with +3 GoE to a penalties in big minuses, that's when I have a problem. I think that ifbthe GoE was positive to start with, it should automatically set its GoE to zero, and just give base value
Examples when this happens?

In theory, if a judge starts with +3 for a jump that looked fully rotated to them in real time, and then they see that the technical panel awarded a q, the judge should probably remove the "good takeoff and landing" bullet point for the jump if they had already rewarded it, which would take the positive points to +2 instead of +3, and THEN subtract -1 or -2 for the q reduction. Which would leave the final GOE at 0 or even +1.

Unless the judge then chose to go back and look at the video replay available on their screen and found other errors on the rewatch.

But as fans we don't get to see the individual judges' scores before they see the tech panel scores (and we certainly don't get to read their minds). We just see the average GOE from the first few judges that put in their scores immediately after the element, in the tech box in the corner of the broadcast video.

We may see the tech box score change a bit if slower judges put in different scores, before the tech box changes to showing the next element. Or not, especially if the next element gets called very soon after the jump concluded.

What could happen sometimes could be that 3 judges see the jump as good in real time and put in enthusiastic GOEs right away, and that's enough to trigger a high average GOE shown in the tech box before the judges who were more dubious about the element in real time put in their scores. Some might be putting in 0 or -1 or -2 during the program based on their own real-time perceptions, but as fans we don't get to see this during the program because by the time those judges enter their scores, the skater and the tech box have moved on to the next element. And then some judges who weren't sure about the element might just make a note and not put in any score for that element, waiting to see whether the tech panel calls q or < or even <<.

So it could be that the judges who were quickest to enter scores for that element gave +3, later reduced to 0 or +1, but the judges who didn't put in scores until after the GOE for that element left the tech box gave lower scores and ended up at -2 after the q was confirmed. Or even lower if they also rewatched the replay themselves and found other aspects to penalize.

But I think that big a change, from significantly positive in the initial tech box to significantly negative in the final score on the protocols, with only a q call would be rare.

(Combinations with rotation calls on two jumps and or flips/lutzes that also get ! or e calls would be more likely to have bigger drops in GOE after the tech panel finishes the reviews and judges get to see their calls.)
 
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In theory, if a judge starts with +3 for a jump that looked fully rotated to them in real time, and then they see that the technical panel awarded a q, the judge should probably remove the "good takeoff and landing" bullet point for the jump if they had already rewarded it, which would take the positive points to +2 instead of +3, and THEN subtract -1 or -2 for the q reduction. Which would leave the final GOE at 0 or even +1.
Shaidorov's 4Lz last year tended to run green in +3's then drop into minuses after q was assigned. I just don't want the judges to reach for that button again to re-vote once tech panel called a q and the GOE was positive. Just go zero. If the mistake was not pronounced enough for judges to see it, zero is appropriate imo.
 
From a skater/pro: Because that's the point. That's what the full GOE points are there for and also...skating physics.
The tighter the arms and legs of the skater are pulled in towards the rotation axis the more the rotational speed of the skater is affected.
To rotate faster in the air, skaters must pull their arms and legs in close to their body to slow their inertia in the air. A more complete rotation means the skater has a more successful and efficient technique. Successfully completing the rotations is crucial for a controlled landing. A lack of rotation can cause the skater to spin into the ice upon landing, which can result in a failed landing and/or possible injury. Doing more rotations requires alot of strength to control the speed and maintain a tight body position in the air and technique to launch and rotate correctly/well is something that requires years of practice.

Not caring about full-completion of jumps would be equal to the following...
In an everyday scenario comparison: You go in for knee surgery and they only did 70% of the procedure before closing you back up and going "Yeah, that'll be good enough!"

People understand why a quad is harder than a triple and why a triple is harder than a double. Because it takes better strength, amplitude, technique to execute with more rotations. The same goes for a jump being fully rotated. It requires better timing (especially on the takeoff), air position (and awareness), and strength/tightness of rotation to do a fully rotated one than one that is on the quarter or UR.

The reality is, that many skaters do not learn this technique nor do they have the strength/genetics to get massive height to unequivocally rotate their jumps (and even still a strong skate hesitates or is eager for a split second and the jump can be underrotated or worse like a doubled/popped jump).

Regarding ideal technique - it's hard to deduct every skater for that because almost no skaters have "ideal" takeoff/landing technique (especially in the women's field where not a ton of skaters are great at vaulting up and then rotating, and so as BoP said they have to rely on starting the rotation on the ice, especially on pick jumps). In a lot of sports "ideal" doesn't necessarily mean perfect because for viewership you need the perfect 10's and 6.0's.
 
(1) I have tried to follow alll the ups and downs that the IJS has gone through since 2003, and I do have to say that they are closing in on a reasonable -- and reasonably nuanced -- approach, in mu opinion. The whole thing of the IJS is that you get a few tenths of a point for every little thin that you do well, and suffer appropriate penalties for outright errors and for the things that you don't do so well. Applied to rotations, a few degrees short,- well, that's just figure skating -- no penalty (but the skater can lose some GOE if the under-rotation causes other problems, like preventing a smooth landing edge.)

If you're off by a q, you pay a price, but a relatively small one. If you're off by a <, the pain starts to mount up. If you're off by a <<, you get socked hard. To me, this is just common sense.

(2) I am not into comspiracy theories. I hope that this does not disqualitfy me from calling myself a figure skating fan. I have never seen any convincing evidence that the judges abd tech panels are out to destroy the careers of those skaters that are not teacher's pets by drowning them with qs... bwahahaha, But that's just me. Fans who believe otherwise. well, I guess that;s why we have a Forum, to give voice to many opinions.

(3) On the artistry versus sport front, I am firmly on the "whole program" side. In sports in general, I don't really care whether one athlete can run a hundred meters faster than another (or a horse, or a race car). This is not very interesting to me. YMMD. But I like team sports where the winner is the team that can conceive and execute a superior game plan, successfully negotiating the ebb and flow of little interior crescendos and climaxes. In terms of the officiating crew, the winning team will be the one one that is able to take advantage of opportunities when a call goes in their favor, and can ride it out and regroup when a call goes against them.

Same with figure skating. What I like best about jumps is how the skater is able to weave them into the program, using big leaps to spotlight musical highs while maintaining the integrity of the total performance. :)
 
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People understand why a quad is harder than a triple and why a triple is harder than a double. Because it takes better strength, amplitude, technique to execute with more rotations. The same goes for a jump being fully rotated. It requires better timing (especially on the takeoff), air position (and awareness), and strength/tightness of rotation to do a fully rotated one than one that is on the quarter or UR.

The reality is, that many skaters do not learn this technique nor do they have the strength/genetics to get massive height to unequivocally rotate their jumps (and even still a strong skate hesitates or is eager for a split second and the jump can be underrotated or worse like a doubled/popped jump).

Regarding ideal technique - it's hard to deduct every skater for that because almost no skaters have "ideal" takeoff/landing technique (especially in the women's field where not a ton of skaters are great at vaulting up and then rotating, and so as BoP said they have to rely on starting the rotation on the ice, especially on pick jumps). In a lot of sports "ideal" doesn't necessarily mean perfect because for viewership you need the perfect 10's and 6.0's.
And we're telling me this why? I'm quite aware. 🤷‍♀️
 
I just read the rules and listened to Ted Barton on JGP when I first started to watch skating. In that 2018 Olympics I was blown away by Uno and Zagitova, and Zagitova won, while Uno got silver and Uno fell. Everything always made sense to me, until I encountered Brown's scores after reading the rules and watching JGP. Basically, my experience is the opposite to what you describe. I read some addendum about what figures used to be 40 years ago, and set it aside as historical curiosity and boring stuff. I don't see the heck of a difference on the highest level in skating skill and performance. Sure, I love some programs far more than others and can imagine that one skater skates sincerely and other doesn't, but after watching dancers practice I have a more cynical view on sincerity and anything natural musicality tbh. It's all a drill in the end. I appreciate it when it is more probable that the skater themselves participated in creating that drill than simply followed the instructions of their team of three coaches, choreographer, PR team, coaching counsil and god knows who else. But performing this drill perfectly is the goal to win a competition.

That said, i feel that sometimes a penalty for q is too strict, and think that 0 in goe rather than negative of any kind is appropriate if the q'd jump initially was indistinguishable from fully rotated and recieved a high positive GoE from the judges. Judges probably should make that decision in their head regardless, but sometimes I see what I feel is overcorrection for a q jump when high positive drops into high negatives for a q that was visually flawless. i would favor 0 for visually great q; positive grade for fully rotated; and negative grades for either URs or visual mistakes on landing irregardless of degree of rotation. For me it would be more coherent with what I see during the performance and what I expect the score for the jump to be.
Penalties for q's are too soft IMO. If you're a popular skater you still get +2/+3 and the judge "justifies" it by saying well it would have been a +5 if not for that minor technical error. Meanwhile a skater from a "lesser" country has no 'q' but their GOE starts off at +2 max, even for a strong jump.

q is also so arbitrary (Sakamoto's 3F+3T comes to mind in her NHK FS where the flip - never mind the PR - is DEFINITELY q if you slowmotion it, with 8 out of 9 judges giving 0 or +1 and only one -1); meanwhile Sarah Everhardt's 3Z+2T+2L gets nailed with a UR 2L and a q on her 3Z which IMO was arguably more rotated than Kaori's 3F in that combo - yielding -3 to -5 on GOE).

Like if you think about it, q is "on the quarter" — how many jumps are EXACTLY 90 degrees short of rotation, and yet we see "q" used so much in protocols? If it's 91 degrees it's UR, if it's 89 degrees there's no call. Wow, these skaters getting q's on their protocols should be commended for PRECISELY hitting that 90 degrees exact. 🙄
 
Oh, yes, another intriguing question is, should the skaters be penalized in a very specific way if they deviated from a filed layout? We normally give props to skaters who can correct as they go or make the actualy program harder than the one they filed, and it is a natural reaction. But... is this right?
No they should not be penalized. Skaters should be assessed based on what they put out there, not what they've told folks ahead of time their intended content is. The filled out layout is moreso for judges to know when to look up and when jumping passes and spins will occur to give them a better sense of the structure of the program. I mean, just to troll the judges, skaters should just put 4A+3T as their first jumping pass.

It would make no sense to penalize a skater even further for doubling a planned quad. Or penalize an SP skater for failing an initial combo and then comboing their solo jump later to make up for it. Also strictly adhering to a filled layout disincentivizes skaters to "fight" or adapt if things don't go to plan.
 
Like if you think about it, q is "on the quarter" — how many jumps are EXACTLY 90 degrees short of rotation, and yet we see "q" used so much in protocols? If it's 91 degrees it's UR, if it's 89 degrees there's no call.
I don't think it's like that at all. That would be stupid and impossible to judge. I think that there is some sort of understanding about how many degrees short deserves a q, even if this is not spelled out precisely in the published rule summaries.

And indeed, this type of fixation on precision measuring is, in my opinion, antithetical to the spirit of figure skating anyway. :( It's on the skater to perform so well that the judges will not be undecided about whether their elements are pristine or cheated.
 
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