Why do "full rotations" matter?
- Thread starter Anna K.
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2016
I'm a nerd so it's probably not surprising that watching perfectly performed jumps in slow-motion makes me excited and it's a fairly big part of why I love watching the sport. 
I wish every jump at every competition was recorded with a high-speed camera and the recording would be available to the public. Ohhh, I want it so bad!
I wish every jump at every competition was recorded with a high-speed camera and the recording would be available to the public. Ohhh, I want it so bad!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I'm a nerd so it's probably not surprising that watching perfectly performed jumps in slow-motion makes me excited and it's a fairly big part of why I love watching the sport.
I wish every jump at every competition was recorded with a high-speed camera and the recording would be available to the public. Ohhh, I want it so bad!
That's what makes the (skating) world go round. Different strokes for different folks.As for me, I am a "whole program" guy. The reason why slo-motion replays of individual elements is not interesting to me is that they don't show how the element is incorporated into the choreography and presentation. Timing, transitions in and out, speed and variations in speed and energy as seen in real time -- that's the thing. It's like taking a musical composition and playing it a quarter speed. Yes, we can savor each individual note, but everything that makes music music has been eliminated.
A better analogy might be the floor exercise in women's gymnastics. This event has pretty much deteriorated to a set of four tumbling passes, and that's all. Throw in a bare minimum of desultory strength and balance moves on the floor and a bit of uninspired cutsie-wootsie posing while they catch their breath for the next tumbling pass.
When the triple Axel became de rigueur for top men in the late 1980s, many programs began with a long stalking of the triple Axel and then, that task out of the way, the program began. Sort of like the orchestra warming up before the actual performance. Eventually skaters got better and better at incorporating this move into the full program, and that was a big advance in the sport, in my opinion.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2019
I've been quite like you since naughty/annoying nerds have pointed out that Alina Zagitova had poor strokes (but good choreographies to conceal it, nah!) and Anna Shcherbakova had also poor jump technique. I started seeing only that. (Then the scores.) Now I'm better, I can bear with it if there's the rest AND if the scoring is roughly right. (By the way, I watched only some Men at the Warsaw Cup and I was overall pleased with the Components awarded for skates which might have been hard to assess.) But then, like AxelLover, I'm starting to feel a thrill with a beautiful jump.
As for me, I am a "whole program" guy. The reason why slo-motion replays of individual elements is not interesting to me is that they don't show how the element is incorporated into the choreography and presentation. Timing, transitions in and out, speed and variations in speed and energy as seen in real time -- that's the thing. It's like taking a musical composition and playing it a quarter speed. Yes, we can savor each individual note, but everything that makes music music has been eliminated.
A better analogy might be the floor exercise in women's gymnastics. This event has pretty much deteriorated to a set of four tumbling passes, and that's all. Throw in a bare minimum of desultory strength and balance moves on the floor and a bit of uninspired cutsie-wootsie posing while they catch their breath for the next tumbling pass.
When the triple Axel became de rigueur for top men in the late 1980s, many programs began with a long stalking of the triple Axel and then, that task out of the way, the program began. Sort of like the orchestra warming up before the actual performance. Eventually skaters got better and better at incorporating this move into the full program, and that was a big advance in the sport, in my opinion.
I perfectly agree with you about Floor at Women's Gymnastics. At this stage, they'd better skip any music as they do for Men (I'd rather go the other way and watch Men do a Floor routine with music...) I think that it's the reason why Katelyn Ohashi's 2019 Collegiate Floor routine went viral, it was just the other way:
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
For me the top level competitive Floor peaked in 2010 (sorry for the creepy music):
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
Eventually I now prefer uneven bars (I have always liked them anyway).
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2016
As for me, I am a "whole program" guy. The reason why slo-motion replays of individual elements is not interesting to me is that they don't show how the element is incorporated into the choreography and presentation. Timing, transitions in and out, speed and variations in speed and energy as seen in real time -- that's the thing. It's like taking a musical composition and playing it a quarter speed. Yes, we can savor each individual note, but everything that makes music music has been eliminated.
A better analogy might be the floor exercise in women's gymnastics. This event has pretty much deteriorated to a set of four tumbling passes, and that's all. Throw in a bare minimum of desultory strength and balance moves on the floor and a bit of uninspired cutsie-wootsie posing while they catch their breath for the next tumbling pass.
When the triple Axel became de rigueur for top men in the late 1980s, many programs began with a long stalking of the triple Axel and then, that task out of the way, the program began. Sort of like the orchestra warming up before the actual performance. Eventually skaters got better and better at incorporating this move into the full program, and that was a big advance in the sport, in my opinion.
Just to clarify my viewpoint, I also love seeing how a jump is incorporated into the program, the posture of the skater before and after the jump, the transitions, the flow on the exit, the correspondence to music, etc. But on top of that I also love the nerdy slow-mo stuff. Both can be mesmerizing with a perfectly executed jump. Fortunately, I am mostly able to separate these two viewpoints so I can enjoy the real-time aesthetics of a jump even if I know it has flaws under the microscope. And vice versa, skater can perform a quad jump with uninspiring or nonexisting transitions, ignoring the music and losing most of the speed on the landing, barely maintaining some flow out, but if under slow-mo I see it was exceptionally well rotated and from the correct edge, I'm happy too.
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- Mar 28, 2006
@lariko was pretty confident I could whip up a ratio btw BV and PCS, but sorry, that is sort of too much work... Tried to think of another, easier way and came up with this which covers only the very top skaters though.
Skating Scores provides a mean of all PCS scores and I looked at the skaters who got 9.00 or more starting 2022-23 in both men and women, short and free, and only international competitions. The lists were pretty short and quite repetitive.
In women, Kaori Sakamoto has gotten mean 9s each season and for both programs. In 2022-23 Haein Lee got it for free, in 2023-24 Loena Hendrickx got it for both short and free, 2024-25 Alysa Liu got mean 9s once in the free. This season only Kaori so far.
In men, Brown and Aymoz are present in most seasons and for both programs, the same for Kagiyama after 2022-23 (he was injured that season), Malinin also starting 2023-24. Cha was there in 2022-23 and 2024-25, Uno before his retirement. Siao Him Fa 2023-24 and this season. My biggest surprise was actually Messing in both in 2022-23.
Techwise this goes ofc so that women who have gotten mean 9s for PCS have the basic triples, Brown has 3As and no quads, Aymoz, Messing, Cha with at least one quad most of the time, Kagiyama has two good quads and attempts at a third, Siao Him Fa about the same, Malinin in his own universe.
Then there are almost 20 men who have attempted 2+3-5 quad layouts starting 2022-23 and have 3As: Egadze, Frangipani, Gogolev, Grassl, Hiwatashi, Kuperman, Kvitelashvili, Litvintsev, Memola, Miura, Peng, reshtenko, Rizzo, Sato, Selevko M., Shaidorov, Tomono, Tsuboi, Yamamoto. Would any of you give 9s for any PCS category for any of them?
E
Skating Scores provides a mean of all PCS scores and I looked at the skaters who got 9.00 or more starting 2022-23 in both men and women, short and free, and only international competitions. The lists were pretty short and quite repetitive.
In women, Kaori Sakamoto has gotten mean 9s each season and for both programs. In 2022-23 Haein Lee got it for free, in 2023-24 Loena Hendrickx got it for both short and free, 2024-25 Alysa Liu got mean 9s once in the free. This season only Kaori so far.
In men, Brown and Aymoz are present in most seasons and for both programs, the same for Kagiyama after 2022-23 (he was injured that season), Malinin also starting 2023-24. Cha was there in 2022-23 and 2024-25, Uno before his retirement. Siao Him Fa 2023-24 and this season. My biggest surprise was actually Messing in both in 2022-23.
Techwise this goes ofc so that women who have gotten mean 9s for PCS have the basic triples, Brown has 3As and no quads, Aymoz, Messing, Cha with at least one quad most of the time, Kagiyama has two good quads and attempts at a third, Siao Him Fa about the same, Malinin in his own universe.
Then there are almost 20 men who have attempted 2+3-5 quad layouts starting 2022-23 and have 3As: Egadze, Frangipani, Gogolev, Grassl, Hiwatashi, Kuperman, Kvitelashvili, Litvintsev, Memola, Miura, Peng, reshtenko, Rizzo, Sato, Selevko M., Shaidorov, Tomono, Tsuboi, Yamamoto. Would any of you give 9s for any PCS category for any of them?
E
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
Miura, Litvintzev, Rizzo, Sato -- would certainly give them 9s if they skate clean in some categories over this period.
My point stands though -- high multiplier in men's already favors men with lower technical scores.
I do not expect any drastic changes in competition results tbh.AI measuring jump rotations might not help attract new fans, but it would definitely make me happy and that's enough for me.
It would be so cool to see how drastically this could change results of competitions. Suddenly someone who usually has no chance to podium could win a competition simply cuz they actually do the rotations in the air. Ofc it would have to be carefully balanced but in principle I'd love this to happen some day.
Those who have been the best when judged visually will most likely be the best also when judged by a computer. Why do I think so? Because I have seen a research that has analysed sufficient amount of data using a scientific method (I'm talking about "Determinant analysis and developing evaluation indicators of grade of execution score of double axel jump in figure skating"; the article cannot be shared because of the copyright but you can read the abstract.)
I expect some positive impact later on though when technologies will be applied in training.
For comparison, have you ever thought that a stopwatch is not an irreplaceable tool if you want to organize a race? All you need is the start line and the finish line. As for the rest, you can get through relying on visual judgement alone. However, the stopwatch can help a lot in training: you can see how fast you are and what is your speed when compared with the best. You can compete with yourself efficiently and improve.
With IT measurements available in figure skating, skaters will be able to train more efficiently and improve their skating quality and jumping technique. I am really looking forward to that because it will be particularly beneficial for skaters who cannot afford traveling (from remote places like... Latvia
) to train side-by-side with the best.
I have seen at least one video of a skater who does a test skate looking like a Christmas tree decorated with sensors all over her body . I conclude that there is quite a choice of where to put those sensors.
Whichever the final choice might be, it is unlikely that skaters will buy sensors for their own money and carry them around like personal equipment. Those will rather be purchased by clubs and other organizers of competitions.
For comparison: in biathlon, time is measured using an electronic transponder (or chip) that is typically worn on the ankle (the device is attached to the athlete and communicates with timing mats placed on the course, recording precise timestamps as the athlete passes over them). These devices are provided and checked by the IBU officials who attach them before the race and collect them after the race.
I suppose that, in figure skating, if any sensors will be attached, the procedure will be similar.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
If you click on the link that starts "DOI:" below the Affiliations paragraph and just above "free article" it will take you to the full paper, including a downloadable PDF.
(I know this because I have frequently dealt with this publisher, Taylor and Francis, and in fact just last week received an invitation to apply for the open position of editor of their journal Mathematics and the Arts -- alas,I had to decline, recommending a younger person.)
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- Jun 21, 2003
OK, so here's what the article referenced above concludes. If you are a lady doing a double Axel, jump far not high if you want max GOE.
Specifically, the researchers compared the skaters'GOE with measurements of vertical height, and separately of horizontal distance and found that the skaters who got the biggest GOE also had the greatest length, but not necessarily greater height than the skaters who got lower GOE.
They also considered speed out of the landing (as perhaps contributing to the GOE bullet point "good take-off and landing"), but this did not seem to make much of a difference.
The technology used was Ice Scope, which is perfectly adequate for such a study even though it does not use any particular high-tech measuring devises, like super-fast high resolution cameras, pressure sensors, or computer learning. For instance the moment of take-off and the moment of landing was determined by human eyeballs -- sort of like how we do on this board when we post slo-motion gifs and screen captures.
Specifically, the researchers compared the skaters'GOE with measurements of vertical height, and separately of horizontal distance and found that the skaters who got the biggest GOE also had the greatest length, but not necessarily greater height than the skaters who got lower GOE.
They also considered speed out of the landing (as perhaps contributing to the GOE bullet point "good take-off and landing"), but this did not seem to make much of a difference.
The technology used was Ice Scope, which is perfectly adequate for such a study even though it does not use any particular high-tech measuring devises, like super-fast high resolution cameras, pressure sensors, or computer learning. For instance the moment of take-off and the moment of landing was determined by human eyeballs -- sort of like how we do on this board when we post slo-motion gifs and screen captures.
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- Feb 17, 2010
It would be interesting to see the actual jumps used for this analysis. I think there's a long history of high jumpers not being able to control landings as well as smaller jumpers (e.g. Nancy vs Tonya, Michelle vs Irina, etc), so I wonder if the researchers compared jumps that were otherwise equivalent as far as quality landings and air position.
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- Dec 9, 2019
As the added value of a long distance is under one point of GOE, I don't think that it can be interpreted as meaning that a longer jump attract a higher GOE beyond the very high and very long bullet? I too think it probable that a higher and shorter jump may be less stable, it would be interesting to add something to assess the rest of the quality markers of the jump. Interestingly, they also managed to get the speed out of the jump, which didn't seem to attract higher GOEs while it's an indicator of a good landing? Also, the sample was small, so this seems more intriguing, calling for more survey, than bringing some definitive conclusion? Thank you for the research/finding!
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- Jun 21, 2003
The authors of the study were quite careful in curtailing the scope of this case study. The interest centered on this question: Given that GOEs fall, in part, on the esthetic/subjective side of the sport, is theire anything that accurate kinetic measurement of things like distance and speed can offer? Well, height and distance are mentioned in the first bluet point for positive GOE -- and that's about it, so that is what the study analyzed.
They were handicapped by not having access to data regarding what the judges thought of other aspects of GOE criteria. It seems to me to be common sense (as opposed to statistics) that of the three groups of skaters (those with high GOE. those with medium GOE, and those with low but non-negative GOE), the first group would show the greatest correlation between distance and overall GOE (that is they got the bullet point for height and distance AND some other unrelated bullet points), whereas this would not show up so much in the statistics for the other two groups who, presumably, got a hodgepodge of pluses and minuses.)
Yeah, it is not surprising that height was not much of a determinant of overall GOE, and in fact, for the highest-scoring cohort there was negative correlation between height a GOE (but not for the other two cohorts).
Although, I think it was adequate for this kind of case study. The researchers had to rely on specific measurements made by the Ice Scope technology. which came on the scene only in 2019 and was used only for entertaining TV audiences and not for judging. I think that the authors of the study might be in basic agreement with the point that Anna K has made on this thread, that this measuring technology is more useful to skaters and coaches for training purposes than for use in ISU judging.
The authors were also quite careful in not claiming any earth-shattering findings despite all the statistical charts and conputaions. "Correlation is not causation."
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- Sep 7, 2023
I find the slating of floor artistry in womens artistic gymnastics pretty baffling when this https://youtu.be/tR_hz0cGzKs?si=LKNIrxuaZf2Tdwrw won the world title. She is telling a story (which was also incorporated into her bronze medal winning beam routine).
Also- Ana Barbosu, Manila Esposito, Ruby Evans, Giulia Perotti, Rina Kishi...? (To name but a few). And even though she's planning to no longer compete on floor- Rebeca Andrade won the Olympics. She is a formidable tumbler but also a great artist.
Also- Ana Barbosu, Manila Esposito, Ruby Evans, Giulia Perotti, Rina Kishi...? (To name but a few). And even though she's planning to no longer compete on floor- Rebeca Andrade won the Olympics. She is a formidable tumbler but also a great artist.
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- Jun 21, 2003
By the way, here is something that AI could undertake. A self-learning program could play the role role of a tech specialist and be instructed to "call the event in the style of Shin Amano." Then, "mow call it in the style of Mme Le Goigne ,if Le Going had had been a tech specialist in the IJS era. Then in the style of Dick Button, as gleaned from his television commentary over the years.
That would be truly cool -- and would put the spotlight on the ever-interesting question: "Did that deserve a q?... Oh yeah? Who says so?!"
That would be truly cool -- and would put the spotlight on the ever-interesting question: "Did that deserve a q?... Oh yeah? Who says so?!"
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2023
I hope they would train it with Amano style strictness (but I'm feeling evil)..
It's being held up as a possible saviour of skating but I think a lot of fans might be in for a rude awakening if AI technical calls become standard. All of a sudden certain fan favourites might start to see their scores tumble (and ones they dislike have their scores increase). .
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- Jun 21, 2003
That was marvelous.For me personally, I have taken an interest in collegiate gymnastics the ;last couple of years, where there are lots of entertaining routines (though not at same level of excellence as Olympians and world champions).
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- Sep 23, 2020
But wouldn't such an awakening be healthy even if shocking at first?
I think most people would not mind even harsh calls as long as they are justified and consistent between all the comps and for all the skaters, regardless of their reputation, fed, position etc. It is the selectiveness and inconsistency of the process that is putting people off, IMHO.
