Why do people look to junior events for clues?

[debdelilah]

I already told you as well how I believe a parent or coach can influence judges at junior events. Because many of the books I have read from former skaters and judges speak of it. Sonia Binachetti's "Cracked Ice" is another book that specifies it that I have read. Llyod Eisler spoke of it in his book(with Isabelle Brassuer)as well.

How do the books say it was accomplished?

 

[slutskayafan21]

How do the books say it was accomplished?

They refer to parents and their coaches going up to the judges from their own country and practice and talking about how they can push ahead their skater, and then that judge will go with coach and talk to other judges in the stands and how they can help one another. That process goes on for the few days leading up a junior event apparently. I could try and gather some quotes of what I mean if you like.

 

[chuckm]

The quite obvious point is that Szewcenko was 3RD at World seniors that year with the same performances almost exactly that she was judged only 4th at World juniors that year. Then you look at Kwan, the easy World junior winner being 8th at Senior Worlds, and Czako who was 2nd at World juniors that year by landing only 3 triples in the World junior long program coming 12th at the World Seniors with a much better free skate then the World juniors. If that point is not fairly obvious, then nothing would be. Talking about how remarkable Kwan did as a 13-year old in her World debuts(and I agree with that)is no way has anything to do with anything.

Few of your points are "fairly obvious".

First of all, in 1994 Junior Worlds took place in the FALL, not in the spring as it does now. Some skaters build during the season and do their best skating at the end of the year. That was likely the case with Tanja Szewczenko. And she finished behind two skaters (Kwan and Slutskaya) who were always strong competitors. No disgrace there.

As for Worlds, Tanja was 16 and would have been expected to fare better with World judges than 13-year-old Kwan. Czako, OTOH, was very young and may have lacked the presence and maturity in her skating the others did. And we have only YOUR word that she skated "better" at Worlds than she did at JW. Do you have any comparative videos to prove your point? Your memory has proved to be lacking on other occasions. Besides, there are 3 programs at Worlds: QR, SP and FS. You may have seen her FS, but how do you know how she did in the earlier segments? You were wrong about Lambiel in 2001, ranting about how well he had done in the SP, and overlooking his flawed FS.

As for the books you've read, as others have noted, they were written with strong bias. Parents and coaches manipulating the judges? Parents and coaches can offer judges nothing in return for a good placement unless they are phenomenally wealthy and can afford to bribe them. And if bribery was going on, you wouldn't see the briber parents and coaches openly approaching judges.

Federations influencing judges? Yes, I think that has gone on in the past and will still go on under CoP. A federation can retaliate against a judge by not sending him/her to any more prestigious events, or even firing him/her.

Parents and coaches influencing judges makes no sense, no matter what those biased books say.

 

[Skye]

for chuckm, to even BOTHER reasoning.

In juniors, it is often WHAT ELEMENTS you can or cannot do that decides the outcomes, whereas in seniors, the judges look for HOW WELL one does throughout the performance.
IMO judging in juniors is much more "objective" and less influenced by federations' power games and reputations of skaters.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Well like I said earlier one of the differences between junior judging and senior judging seems to be senior judges factor in artistry and maturity of skating more then junior judges who look mostly at technical content.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Besides, there are 3 programs at Worlds: QR, SP and FS. You may have seen her FS, but how do you know how she did in the earlier segments? You were wrong about Lambiel in 2001, ranting about how well he had done in the SP, and overlooking his flawed FS.

I understand that, however I am referring as well to how they were scored specificaly in those programs as well, Szewcenko in the long program, and Lambiel in the short program, even if their placings in the other programs impacted their final overall placing. That is unless you are suggesting having faltered in earlier programs is a detriment since they did not "give a good impression" to begin with. In that case I could see that happening, since although I dont agree with that, in senior events a judges perception of you at that event starts from the very start, even a qualifying round or a compulsory dance. So in that regard it would be very similar to senior events.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I do think that at the lowest levels a well-connected coach or a pushy parent can get judges to notice a skater who might otherwise be just another face in the crowd. By the time you get to juniors, though, either you land that triple loop or you don't.

I have to admit that the more I learn about the sport the better I think the judging really is, overall.

 

[gkelly]

That is unless you are suggesting having faltered in earlier programs is a detriment since they did not "give a good impression" to begin with. In that case I could see that happening, since although I dont agree with that, in senior events a judges perception of you at that event starts from the very start, even a qualifying round or a compulsory dance. So in that regard it would be very similar to senior events.

If you take that into account, though, it may be relevant that Szewczenko skated in the final group at senior Worlds, whereas Czako and Kwan skated earlier because of errors in the short program. Thus they would more likely have been forgotten by the time the final group came along, and Szewczenko (didn't she skate at or near the end of the group) with a relatively clean skate was being directly compared to Chouinard and Kielmann, who made multiple errors in the long.

 

[slutskayafan21]

If you take that into account, though, it may be relevant that Szewczenko skated in the final group at senior Worlds, whereas Czako and Kwan skated earlier because of errors in the short program. Thus they would more likely have been forgotten by the time the final group came along, and Szewczenko (didn't she skate at or near the end of the group) with a relatively clean skate was being directly compared to Chouinard and Kielmann, who made multiple errors in the long.

I dont recall either Kwan or Czako being considered even remote medal contenders by anybody at the 94 senior Worlds. I remember Americans hoping young Kwan could maybe eke into the top 10 with some withdrawals from the Olympics, and being thrilled wither 8th place finish. What makes you think they would have even been in the final flight without their errors in the short program? It is hugely unlikely.

For the record though Kiellman I actually would have given the bronze over Szewcenko since she landed a triple lutz, a triple toe-triple, and the same number of triples as Szewcenko(5). Still it was close between the two and could have gone either way. Chouinard wasted her medal opportunity at Worlds again.

 

[chuckm]

Being considered a medal contender doesn't mean much. Joannie Rochette was considered a major medal contender at Worlds 2006, while Kimmie Meissner was dismissed as a contender since she was a newbie. We all know how that one turned out.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Being considered a medal contender doesn't mean much. Joannie Rochette was considered a major medal contender at Worlds 2006, while Kimmie Meissner was dismissed as a contender since she was a newbie. We all know how that one turned out.

I dont agree with you here. Meissner was absolutely considered a medal contender going into the Worlds this year, not the favorite to win but after coming a 6th at the Olympics without even skating her best in the free skate, and the gold and bronze medalists from the Olympics out she was absolutely a medal contender.

 

[Tonichelle]

Tara had the one style of skating, very giddy and little girlish. She did that well. But in SOI, she could not come up to the other gals in looking sexy. I remember one act where she had a mop of hair; makeup for a tart which made her look like a little girl dressing up. And with her lack of edging skills had a tough time keeping up with the other gals' sensuous body language.

That whole theme for SOI sucked lol... the whole Moulin Rouge thing was just roll your eyes time... worst show Sandra and Co. produced IMHO

Sad but the hip did get worse on tour. I believe her last number (at least the last one I saw) was some kind of tribute to America where she skated to a drum beat in a uniform the color of the Confederacy. Very limited and, no edging. Just a march.

Joe

It was "Proud To Be An American" with the drum cadence from the JFK soundtrack mixed in... Kurt Browning and Lori Nichols choreographed it (Kurt did the footwork IIRC) and IIRC it was a tribute to 9-11 in a way... IIRC, that was her last full year of touring as you said, Joe.

I actually liked the program after she got a hang of it... wasn't the most awesome thing ever, but it was nice...

never did like that whole JFK part, though, because Paul Wylie did a program to that piece of music and it was just so brilliantly done that she paled in comparrison in everyway

But then, mom decided that Tara could make more money with SOI. Tara was miserable with SOI (so the story goes), and did not fit in with the much older crowd (only Kurt Browning went out of his way to befriend her). So they say -- probably an exaggeration.

According to Tara interviews she said she always wanted to tour and that she loved SOI... the only time she had problems with SOI --other than the obvious age issues which she addressed in the show number "Tunnel Vision"-- was when doctors told her to sit out a few shows due to her hip... she didn't want to, and skated through it... after a very bad fall during a show Sandra Besic reported pulled her out of the next evening's show... Tara or her mom had a fit, called IMG, and Sandra was basically told to back off and Tara skated...

Sandra was only looking after her long term asset... but I have a feeling that Tara already knew once her contract was up she was going to quit skating...

 

[antmanb]

The quite obvious point is that Szewcenko was 3RD at World seniors that year with the same performances almost exactly that she was judged only 4th at World juniors that year. Then you look at Kwan, the easy World junior winner being 8th at Senior Worlds, and Czako who was 2nd at World juniors that year by landing only 3 triples in the World junior long program coming 12th at the World Seniors with a much better free skate then the World juniors. If that point is not fairly obvious, then nothing would be. Talking about how remarkable Kwan did as a 13-year old in her World debuts(and I agree with that)is no way has anything to do with anything.

But you're only looking at three skaters...who were they competing against - look at the entire fields in both not just isolate 3 skaters and not compare them to the OTHER SKATERS they were competing against!!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Half truthes, I just stated exactly why the results of the 94 World juniors were ridiculous, you are the one attempting a ridiculous half truth by bringing up the World juniors this year in order to create some silly assumption that if the World juniors this year had as tough a field as seniors, that referring to the 94 event was not valid. Anycase I dont have to say anything more, anybody who does not the see the obviosness of the 94 example, simply refuses to believe something they dont want to believe since it could not be any more obvious.

No i've already explained to you that looking at skaters in isolation and not in comparison to the field they are competing against is pretty idiotic especially when the judging system at the time was a comparative one. Trying to make some point about how "the same performance" (which incidentally has to be untrue given the difference between the junior and senior program requirements) should have faired in a different competition can't even validly be done with the absolute scoring that CoP produces, certainly not with 6.0. I agree that the judging is this sport is pretty ropey at best but your "assertion" that junior events are worse than senior is an opinion and not a fact and so far you haven't provided any kind of evidence or even facts to substantiate that flimsy theory.

I already told you as well how I believe a parent or coach can influence judges at junior events. Because many of the books I have read from former skaters and judges speak of it. Sonia Binachetti's "Cracked Ice" is another book that specifies it that I have read. Llyod Eisler spoke of it in his book(with Isabelle Brassuer)as well. If you choose to believe former skaters and judges just make up stories about junior skating because they are disgruntled, then go ahead in think that. After all you are the same person that does not see anything bizarre about a World bronze medalist coming 4th at World juniors the same year with identical performances, and the World junior silver medalist being 2nd at World juniors with much weaker free skate then the stronger one that gained her a 12th place at World Seniors.

Not really you mentioned a couple of sensationalist books written by bitter skaters and two more reliable books which make the same point about senior and junior events - they're all pretty crooked. You stated that one parent or one coach can make the gold be given to a particular skater - please tell me which one you think it was and waht they did...if you can't then its a crackpot theory that's all!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

They refer to parents and their coaches going up to the judges from their own country and practice and talking about how they can push ahead their skater, and then that judge will go with coach and talk to other judges in the stands and how they can help one another. That process goes on for the few days leading up a junior event apparently. I could try and gather some quotes of what I mean if you like.

Perhaps, since your attempts at claiming this happened in favour of Weir and Lysacek at junior worlds was blown out of the water with the real facts chuckm presented...

Ant