Why isn't collegiate skating a big thing?

[gravy]

I would assume one major reason that NCAA figure skating isn't a thing is because the NCAA only allows amateur athletes to compete (IE, ones who have never received prize money [sans Worlds or Olympics] or endorsements). Early in their careers, even skaters who will probably never make Worlds or the Olympics tend to cash in whenever possible to offset training costs because the sport is so expensive. That alone would disqualify a huge chunk of skaters who are not amateurs.

 

[gkelly]

What constitutes "cashing in" or amateurism by NCAA standards? Is it as strict as the amateur rules that governed figure skating and Olympic sport in general 30+ years ago?

There aren't many opportunities for non-elite figure skaters to earn much money connected to skating.

Many do coach lower-level skaters, even before/during college, so that would be the main issue. A few might have gotten paid to perform in shows, but not as stars. We're not talking big money, so I wouldn't consider either of these income sources as "cashing in," but they used to affect amateur status as far as the federations went and might still for the NCAA.

Do shows count as "sport"? Would a gymnast be in violation of NCAA rules if she took a summer job as a dancer in a stage show that included acrobatic dancing?

 

[Abraxis12345]

What constitutes "cashing in" or amateurism by NCAA standards? Is it as strict as the amateur rules that governed figure skating and Olympic sport in general 30+ years ago?

The NCAA has very strict and very complicated rules about what student athletes can and cannot do in regards to summer jobs and how much they can earn. Feel free to read. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/compliance_forms/DI/DI Summary of NCAA Regulations.pdf

However, they can earn prize money from competitions, so long as it didn't exceed necessary training expenses. A lot of gymnasts actually have their earnings held by USA Gymnastics in a trust for training expenses.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks for the link.

It doesn't look as though teaching skating lessons or performing in something like Disney on Ice would make a skater ineligible by NCAA rules.

Having participated in international events (JGP, GP and senior B, etc.) by itself shouldn't disqualify them either, although that would apply to only a small percentage of potential collegiate skaters. Having placed high enough internationally to win prize money might -- I'm not clear I understand the rules on that, but for the most part the prize money is less than the expenses of competing, albeit travel expenses etc. would usually be covered by the national skating federation. And only a handful of collegiate skaters would have won international prize money.

What would NCAA-level skating look like if it existed? Would competitions be held under USFS rules or would it have its own governing body and make its own rules? Would each skater on a team skate one or two programs, and how would they earn points for their team? Or would there be a completely different format? Would it be for (junior and) senior level skaters only or could college teams include skaters who had only ever tested or competed at lower levels before college? What about people who start skating in college -- what skill level would they need to reach to make it onto a team?

If there were a well-established NCAA-level competition structure and enough colleges that support participation, e.g., with free ice time and coaching for team members, there would be more participants. But that doesn't mean many participants with triple jumps -- there just aren't that many skaters at that level to begin with, and girls' jumping skills often decline by late teens even if they do keep training at the same level in college that they did in high school and earlier, depending how their bodies mature.

 

[musicfan80]

There is no money, period. Collegiate athletics programs would rather get rid of men's teams than add women's teams in order to comply with Title IX, and we saw that happen recently with Temple, and Cal Berkeley, where several non-revenue sports such as gymnastics, softball, and rowing, were cut.

Football and basketball basically bankrolls every other program that the athletic department has. I think the only women's sport that makes money for the university is basketball. Volleyball (and at some schools, gymnastics) might break even.

 

[Weathergal]

Football and basketball basically bankrolls every other program that the athletic department has. I think the only women's sport that makes money for the university is basketball. Volleyball (and at some schools, gymnastics) might break even.

Sorry hope this isn't going too off-topic, but just to add to what musicfan80 and a few others have said...

I went to Pennsylvania State University several (ahem!) years ago, and at that time the university had many sports teams competing at the NCAA level: football, basketball, fencing, gymnastics, swimming and diving, just to name a few. What I was told at that time was that the football program, which was one of the most successful in the country, made enough money to support not just the football program but also all the other sports teams--except one. That was ice hockey. At that time it was a club sport. The teams we played included schools from Erie Community College to Duke University. The games were a lot of fun to watch, no matter what the level was!

(As background for those not from the U.S., Penn State is the third biggest school (by student enrollment) in the U.S. Erie Community College is a very small, two-year school, and Duke University is a fairly large, very prestigious school with a top basketball program, among others.)

So at that time, hockey was considered too pricey even for schools one might think could afford it. That apparently has changed as hockey has gotten increasingly popular in the U.S. I'm told Penn State now has an NCAA-level team.

As a side note, I took Figure Skating I and II at Penn State for two of my required gym classes. Definitely my favorite gym classes!

 

[moonvine]

I would assume one major reason that NCAA figure skating isn't a thing is because the NCAA only allows amateur athletes to compete (IE, ones who have never received prize money [sans Worlds or Olympics] or endorsements). Early in their careers, even skaters who will probably never make Worlds or the Olympics tend to cash in whenever possible to offset training costs because the sport is so expensive. That alone would disqualify a huge chunk of skaters who are not amateurs.

I'm always amazed at which gymnasts stay amateur. An awful lot of Olympic medalists and even Gold medalists, and many, many National team members stay amateur in order to compete in the NCAAs. I believe there is a loophole, because Madison Kocian, member of the 2016 OGM team, retained her NCAA eligibility and is now attending UCLA despite being in an Under Armor Commercial. I think the money may be able to be held in trust? Or else she just didn't get paid for it.

 

[moonvine]

There is no money, period. Collegiate athletics programs would rather get rid of men's teams than add women's teams in order to comply with Title IX, and we saw that happen recently with Temple, and Cal Berkeley, where several non-revenue sports such as gymnastics, softball, and rowing, were cut.

I'm assuming Temple and Cal Berkeley don't have football teams which bring in billions upon billions of dollars. The football program at my school covers all the non-moneymaking sports with money left over. That's why they can have stuff like a hockey team smack in the middle of Alabama.

 

[moonvine]

The NCAA has very strict and very complicated rules about what student athletes can and cannot do in regards to summer jobs and how much they can earn. Feel free to read. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/compliance_forms/DI/DI Summary of NCAA Regulations.pdf

However, they can earn prize money from competitions, so long as it didn't exceed necessary training expenses. A lot of gymnasts actually have their earnings held by USA Gymnastics in a trust for training expenses.

Just out of curiosity, can Madison eventually get money for the Under Armor commercial she did, or did she just do a freebie? She's at UCLA now.

 

[Abraxis12345]

So at that time, hockey was considered too pricey even for schools one might think could afford it. That apparently has changed as hockey has gotten increasingly popular in the U.S. I'm told Penn State now has an NCAA-level team.

As a side note, I took Figure Skating I and II at Penn State for two of my required gym classes. Definitely my favorite gym classes!

I believe the Pegula family, who now own NFL and NHL teams in Buffalo, helped fund the hockey team through a very generous donation. Alumni donations also help to keep the non-revenue sports afloat (it's what ultimately saved the Cal Berkeley baseball and gymnastics teams). So a collegiate skating team would need significant alumni support.

 

[Weathergal]

I believe the Pegula family, who now own NFL and NHL teams in Buffalo, helped fund the hockey team through a very generous donation. Alumni donations also help to keep the non-revenue sports afloat (it's what ultimately saved the Cal Berkeley baseball and gymnastics teams). So a collegiate skating team would need significant alumni support.

Agreed. Even a revenue-generating machine like the Penn State football team, which is already covering the expenses of all the other sports, has its limits.

 

[TGee]

I would be firmly against this primarily because in the US there are many more funding/sponsorship opportunities open to female skaters than there are to male skaters. It's hard enough to keep male skaters as it is - why not give out figure skating scholarship money equally?

While I actually a big supporter of male skaters, I will also say that at the time I was in the US, I really wondered about the choices that many of the schools made for title IX scholarships to women. That is, was the money going to what young female athletes wanted to do, or what their existing set of coaches and facilities were set up to support?

It seemed to me more that they were trying to match the male team sports, than looking to see what sports young women were excelling in that would generate fan support. And if a base of interest and support were built for women's figure skating, men might follow. I'll note that in the Ontario University Athletic system (OUA), there are male and female skaters in singles, but solo dance and similar pairs (i.e. both female), and synchro teams. So, it might need the female skaters to get it going....

But I would note that male skaters, because there are so few, actually do have relatively more funding advantages, and a lot of behind the scenes tracking and support from relatively early stages. Even in Canada, the number of boys and young men competing for podium placements or super series finals are small. They are more likely to be able to access local and provincial bursaries. Being pre-novice woman among a hundred at sectionals doesn't provide a lot of hope of getting funding or advancement.

 

[gravy]

Just out of curiosity, can Madison eventually get money for the Under Armor commercial she did, or did she just do a freebie? She's at UCLA now.

I'm always amazed at which gymnasts stay amateur. An awful lot of Olympic medalists and even Gold medalists, and many, many National team members stay amateur in order to compete in the NCAAs. I believe there is a loophole, because Madison Kocian, member of the 2016 OGM team, retained her NCAA eligibility and is now attending UCLA despite being in an Under Armor Commercial. I think the money may be able to be held in trust? Or else she just didn't get paid for it.

Kocian and the other gymnasts in the commercial were not paid for doing that commercial. There was some minor drama about how Under Armour was going cheap and exploiting amateur gymnasts when they could have paid others like Simone, Aly, Gabby, etc. who were already professional to appear in the commercial.

It's pretty incredible that Kocian and Ross are Olympic gold medalists and still amateur. Then again, it's not surprising since they were always the quiet ones in the background on their teams. Unless you have a super outgoing personality, it's not wise to give up your amateur eligibility because you're always going to be outshined by the others on the team (these two were the only ones on the past 2 Olympic teams who did not go pro). There are also other ways to cash in by staying amateur like getting a full scholarship to a prestigious university like UCLA.

 

[carriecmu0503]

I'm assuming Temple and Cal Berkeley don't have football teams which bring in billions upon billions of dollars. The football program at my school covers all the non-moneymaking sports with money left over. That's why they can have stuff like a hockey team smack in the middle of Alabama.

Cal Berkeley has one of the most major football programs in the US. Cal Berkeley is the flagship school of the UC system. This is the school where Aaron Rodgers played.

 

[brightphoton]

Cal Berkeley has one of the most major football programs in the US. Cal Berkeley is the flagship school of the UC system. This is the school where Aaron Rodgers played.

In the last 5 years, Cal Berkeley has ... Hmmm, how do I put this ... had financial shenanigans with an exorbitantly expensive new football stadium, because the old stadium was not good, or something. Athletics said they said they could afford but it turns out they couldn't, at all. This was a gigantic debt, and Berkeley has had trouble even paying the interest. To help reduce costs, even things like library hours were cut.

 

[twirlingblades]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, intercollegiate figure skating is huge. Many schools have synchro and/or intercollegiate teams classified as a varsity sport.

 

[emily_sk8xx]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, intercollegiate figure skating is huge. Many schools have synchro and/or intercollegiate teams classified as a varsity sport.

I mean, I wouldn't exactly say that it's huge. The vast majority of colleges don't have teams and most get little to no funding. My college (I go to Cal Berkeley lol) has a team but we don't get any funding from the school or anything and most people don't actually know we exist.

 

[twirlingblades]

I mean, I wouldn't exactly say that it's huge. The vast majority of colleges don't have teams and most get little to no funding. My college (I go to Cal Berkeley lol) has a team but we don't get any funding from the school or anything and most people don't actually know we exist.

Okay, true. I'm in the Midwest so it might be a little different.

 

[Nigel]

While I actually a big supporter of male skaters, I will also say that at the time I was in the US, I really wondered about the choices that many of the schools made for title IX scholarships to women. That is, was the money going to what young female athletes wanted to do, or what their existing set of coaches and facilities were set up to support?

It seemed to me more that they were trying to match the male team sports, than looking to see what sports young women were excelling in that would generate fan support. And if a base of interest and support were built for women's figure skating, men might follow. I'll note that in the Ontario University Athletic system (OUA), there are male and female skaters in singles, but solo dance and similar pairs (i.e. both female), and synchro teams. So, it might need the female skaters to get it going....

But I would note that male skaters, because there are so few, actually do have relatively more funding advantages, and a lot of behind the scenes tracking and support from relatively early stages. Even in Canada, the number of boys and young men competing for podium placements or super series finals are small. They are more likely to be able to access local and provincial bursaries. Being pre-novice woman among a hundred at sectionals doesn't provide a lot of hope of getting funding or advancement.

From the NCAA website....
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how

Athletics programs are considered educational programs and activities. There are three basic parts of Title IX as it applies to athletics:

Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;
Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and
Other benefits: Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes.

 

[Sloopy]

There are very few Universities with a football and basketball program that can even support the minimum programs due to Title IX. By adding synchronized skating , most would have to cut another men's program. There are only a few universities, namely in the Big Ten (Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State), and Stanford even attempt to support more than 24 programs between men and women. Most of these teams are totally supported by football, basketball (some women's basketball programs are self-sufficient as well) and maybe wrestling (really huge in the Big Ten). I believe Ohio State supports the most programs of any university with 37 and Stanford 36. Penn State adding hockey in the last couple of years may have forced them to add another women's program in order to keep the equal number of male to female ratio due to Title IX. Of these programs only Ohio State offers women's hockey where they have two rinks on campus.