Will Asada or Kim match Kwan's record for consecutive world podium finishes?

[Kwanford Wife]

I have no fandom in my judging; I'm objective.

What happened is what happened. Often times, the wrong thing happens. We can not re-write History, we can only talk about WHY something was wrong and/or use affirmative action as a solution when necessary. In the case of Figure Skating and other sports, affirmative action simply isn't viable most of the time. The wrong person getting the Gold Medal is annoying, but it's not Slavery and it's not a big corporation shipping out a dangerous product that needs to be recalled.

Corrective action has happened a few times in figure skating, though, and such measures need to happen quickly because the window of opportunity for these things isn't large. Salle and Pelletier were given Gold medals, but if that hadn't happened, nobody would have been pressuring the ISU to reverse the decision a year later. The time would have been past.

Harding was stripped of her 1994 National Title but that wouldn't have happened if, for some reason, the identity of Nancy's attacker wasn't discovered until 5 years later.

At 2005 Japanese Nationals, Nobunari Oda won the title over Takahashi and therefore a trip to the Olympics. It was later discovered, however, that a judging mistake had happened. The medals were reversed and Takahashi become the Japanese Champion and got the trip to the Olympics. If this scoring error hadn't been found out until yesterday, for example, Oda would still be the Japanese Champion of that competition. Nobody would be saying "wow, we need to change that" at this point. The time would have already been too far gone. The point I'm trying to make is that the difference is SOLELY what is written in the history book. If that corrective action hadn't happened, it would be very easy to argue that Takahashi SHOULD have been Champion. He wouldn't ever be 2005 Japanese Champion in the books but, in time, it would become accepted as the norm by those who are knowledgeable about the matter.

It is actually extremely natural to look back in History and say "this is what SHOULD have happened" (Midori Ito should have won the 1988 Olympics; Citizen Kane should not have lost the Oscar to How Green Was My Valley) or to "adjust the value" of something which happened historically (for example, Titanic holds the Title of the #1 grossing film of all time but, if you adjust for inflation, it's actually not). The titles that certain Olympic decathlon athletes hold can not be taken away but, as the decathlon point system has changed over the years, you can go back using the "better" judging system and say "Well, this is how many points XXX person SHOULD have had". It's no different with Figure Skating.

Apparently, I'm just one of the very few who is actually questioning at this kind of Meta-level rather than merely accepting. ------ That, of course, is not true at all. You're all doing it in some kind of varying amount but simply not recognizing the process. ANY time you say "XXX should have been the result, given what happened", you've engaged into this level of thought. It's quite different from fandom, Kwanford. Wanting someone to win is one thing (I "wanted" Cohen to win 2006 Worlds, for example); using objective thought to analyze the result is another (Cohen should have been 4th at 2006 Worlds). And, no, not everything in Figure Skating is objective. But that's part of what makes it fun to talk about and watch.

We can agree to disagree, but to say your rambling analysis of who shoulda won is not based in what happened on the ice... Why? Because its not accurate to say figures shouldn't count, when they did - the judging system was wrong, when that's how the skating was judged - and creating a brand spankin' new system of judging to support your opionion simply doesn't work... Have there been funky judging outcomes in skating? Absolutely. But simply overanalyzing something or calling it "meta level thinking" doesn't make it fact. It makes it an opinion... or fandom.

And yes, there have been changes in judging decisions in skating when there were gross injustices (Tonya Harding), uncovered plot lines (Pairs '02) or factually incorrect judging (Ota) - but those are exceptions. Saying that Sasha deserved Bronze in '02 is opinion at best or wuzrobbed at worse. See the difference?

In skating, like life, there are rarely do-overs and if you want to win, you need to be the best on that night and fight for that title. It is what it is...

 

[GoldMedalist]

We can agree to disagree, but to say your rambling analysis of who shoulda won is not based in what happened on the ice... Why? Because its not accurate to say figures shouldn't count

It's very accurate to say that figures shouldn't count in the analysis of skating, just as it is to free someone of sentence from a law that was overturned. My opinion is entirely based upon what happened on the ice...as I already stated, the judges placed Midori Ito 4th in the SP and 3rd in the LP. I find that to be entirely laughable and believe she easily deserved 1st place for both because of her overwhelming stronger and more advanced tech. You see, those programs (and the programs of all the opposing top competitors at the 1988 Olympics) ARE something that we can all view and talk about. Figures are not.

and creating a brand spankin' new system of judging to support your opionion simply doesn't work

Gee, yeah, I guess since the judging system for figure skating has NEVER changed we should always base our opinions on the system of the moment and look at it as infallible. Oh, wait.....

And yes, there have been changes in judging decisions in skating when there were gross injustices (Tonya Harding), uncovered plot lines (Pairs '02) or factually incorrect judging (Ota) - but those are exceptions. Saying that Sasha deserved Bronze in '02 is opinion at best or wuzrobbed at worse. See the difference?

*sigh*

Of COURSE it's an opinion that Sasha deserved Bronze in '02. I'm not saying the decision can or should be reversed -- It can't! That is history. (did you even understand what I previously wrote, it doesn't seem like it TBH). Have you ever disagreed with the result of a figure skating event -- not because you wanted someone to win and they didn't do well, but because of a clear-minded thought process as to why the result was incorrect given what actually happened?

In skating, like life, there are rarely do-overs and if you want to win, you need to be the best on that night and fight for that title. It is what it is...

Yes, but how do you define who is "the best"? The judging system and the judges themselves. Therefore, if the system is not correct, you are getting a false result.

That is why figures were made to be worth less value and eventually eliminated and why the entire judging system has changed -- a widely shared opinion that becomes the social norm. Again, nothing will change what actually happened in the past. You seem to agree with this, a rather wise decision, since time travel mostly likely does not exist. What can be done, though, is to look at WHY something was incorrect or not optimal. That is how progress happens and how our opinions as humans are shaped. You don't have to share my opinion, I'm just trying to explain it to you. Discussing the reasoning and viewpoint behind the opinion on a certain subject is how we can influence the opinions of others and thus slowly change that social norm I spoke of.

Of course, everyone isn't going to agree all the time. Because, again, some of it comes down to personal taste -- just like movies or food. Which is the entire point of us being here on this forum and sharing how we feel. I WANT to hear opposing opinions (when they are well-reasoned).

 

[Kwanford Wife]

It's very accurate to say that figures shouldn't count in the analysis of skating, just as it is to free someone of sentence from a law that was overturned. My opinion is entirely based upon what happened on the ice...as I already stated, the judges placed Midori Ito 4th in the SP and 3rd in the LP. I find that to be entirely laughable and believe she easily deserved 1st place for both because of her overwhelming stronger and more advanced tech. You see, those programs (and the programs of all the opposing top competitors at the 1988 Olympics) ARE something that we can all view and talk about. Figures are not.



Gee, yeah, I guess since the judging system for figure skating has NEVER changed we should always base our opinions on the system of the moment and look at it as infallible. Oh, wait.....



*sigh*

Of COURSE it's an opinion that Sasha deserved Bronze in '02. I'm not saying the decision can or should be reversed -- It can't! That is history. (did you even understand what I previously wrote, it doesn't seem like it TBH). Have you ever disagreed with the result of a figure skating event -- not because you wanted someone to win and they didn't do well, but because of a clear-minded thought process as to why the result was incorrect given what actually happened?

Yes, but how do you define who is "the best"? The judging system and the judges themselves. Therefore, if the system is not correct, you are getting a false result.

That is why figures were made to be worth less value and eventually eliminated and why the entire judging system has changed -- a widely shared opinion that becomes the social norm. Again, nothing will change what actually happened in the past. You seem to agree with this, a rather wise decision, since time travel mostly likely does not exist. What can be done, though, is to look at WHY something was incorrect or not optimal. That is how progress happens and how our opinions as humans are shaped. You don't have to share my opinion, I'm just trying to explain it to you. Discussing the reasoning and viewpoint behind the opinion on a certain subject is how we can influence the opinions of others and thus slowly change that social norm I spoke of.

Of course, everyone isn't going to agree all the time. Because, again, some of it comes down to personal taste -- just like movies or food. Which is the entire point of us being here on this forum and sharing how we feel. I WANT to hear opposing opinions (when they are well-reasoned).

Are you seriously, serious? I'm a lawyer, so I feel very clear with my ability to tell the difference between what is fact and what is opinion... And I have the student loans to prove it... I also don't see how one can compare Ito's '88 loss to people sitting in prison for crimes of which they are innocent, but ok... I gotta work late and have some time to kill before my 6:30 meeting so let's play...

First, figures were a part of skating in 1988 and those results counted towards the overall total needed to win a skating competition. Just because you couldn't see them, doesn't mean they didn't happen, they just weren't televised. Some skaters are excellent in figures (Witt and Thomas) and some were not (Denise B. and Midori) and it had a way of affecting scores. While those skaters competed under the guidelines of the three part system, then they were subject to those rules and needed to make the system work for them. Thomas, like Witt, was an excellent figures skater and led heading into the short program... we all know what happened next...

Now, a conviction is generally overturned because of proceedural error at trial.(supressed evidence, witness errors, new evidence, etc.) Convictions can be overturned durning the appeal process and then a new trial can be had or if the new evidence is so strong, the prosecuter might not deem it fair or worth the expense of a new trial. Andrea Yates was granted a new trial by the appeals court because it was determined that her mental status matched the state's standard for legally insane (how that was ever in question, is still beyond me... she killed her babies...)

This is very different than in skating because you don't have an appeals court to show that your spiral sequence and 3A are vastly superior to the champ ... Now, if a skating judge cuts a deal with another skating judge, then its totally correct to say "that is not right! let's fix this by giving the rightful winner the title." and Yay! when that happens. But that's what we call an exception.

With me so far?? Great.

Now sometimes laws and rules are considered unfair and / or changes occur, and that's Yay! as well... But unlike in figure skating, in a court of law where people's lives hang in the balance, direct changes that would free an innocent person are possible.

In skating, this isn't always the best course of action. And while we can discuss it, we can't change it. And while we can judge yesterday by today's standards and have a different opionion, we cannot say: well, I don't like that so it must be false. So we cannot say that figures don't count because in 1988 they did... We also can't say that Midori shoulda won in '88 and imply that its factual when its our opinion. Just like we can't say that Michelle Kwan should've been placed higher at worlds in '04 and '05 because she did not skate her best in the first round of competition that is the qualifying round.

Now, I don't like the CoP but its the judging system that we have in place, by the ISU, currently to judge by - so, I must conform my opinions that system or run the risk of appearing foolish when I state woulda coulda shoulda on skating boards. And because I can be objective, I can see how certain skaters win and others do not - even if I personally feel the system blows...

Now, if you want to change the judging system to re-evaluate old programs, go right ahead and tell Speedy I concur. But until the time that the system is changed, then we must live with the results of the judges unless something corrupt is apparent.

Skating, like society, is always ready for the revolution... I'm simply too busy campaigning against the war in Iraq to take on another cause, but you go ahead and when the movement starts, let me know and I'll be right there with you on the front lines... provided of course, we can fix those rare times that Michelle Kwan did not win.

And yes, I do think that sometimes skaters who deserve to win were screwed, but what I think is one thing and what is gross injustic and outright cheating doesn't compare in my world to the judges sometimes simply holding a skater up because of their rep...

I love this sport, but c'mon people... War is bad. Innocent people on death row is bad. Poor leadership in the White House is bad. Midori Ito losing the '88 Olympic Gold medal because she hadn't masted figures? Not so much...

(And yes, GoldMedalist, I do understand what you wrote and yes, we do come on boards to discuss different opinions and who shoulda won... but please, please, please... don't compare figure skating's bad judging to slavery or bad convictions... those things are truly unfair... bad judging just sucks.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

First of all, I've been around for a hundred years and in those years Figures counted and they counted a lot. (60% of the Score) Over and Out!!!

The belief is judges are infallible although in a Panel, they seldom agree, so why should Fans not be permitted to disagree? Some judges we agree with; others we don't. The final say lies with the scoring system and there is nothing one can do about changing it. But at the same time, one doesn't have to change his mind about the outcome of an event.

So voicing opinions is cathartic. BTW, Cary Grant never won an Oscar but he did receive an award for his Body-of-Work.

Joe

 

[Tinymavy15]

I find it a little ironic that sasha skated BETTER in Salt Lake than in Torino. Both times she blew the roof off with her short, it was stunning both times. She opened both freeskates with a fall on the triple lutz combonation, and then in 2002 skated a perfect program, in 2006, had another fall and then skated a perfect program. She skated to the two classics. Carmen and Romeo and Juliet in the free, but reather unkown selctions in the short. But in 2002 she was fourth, 2006 she was second. is it just the juding system or what???

 

[slutskayafan21]

I find it a little ironic that sasha skated BETTER in Salt Lake than in Torino. Both times she blew the roof off with her short, it was stunning both times. She opened both freeskates with a fall on the triple lutz combonation, and then in 2002 skated a perfect program, in 2006, had another fall and then skated a perfect program. She skated to the two classics. Carmen and Romeo and Juliet in the free, but reather unkown selctions in the short. But in 2002 she was fourth, 2006 she was second. is it just the juding system or what???

It is alot of things.

1)Sasha was a MUCH better skater in 2002 then 2006. Her edges had improved alot, her jumps were stronger, her choreography was much stronger.

2)Her 2006 LP was just a much stronger program while her 2002 LP had too much plain stroking from move to move.

3)The 2002 field was stronger then the 2006 field considering the noteable absences (Kwan, Asada), and the 2006 favorites (excluding Sasha if you wish) skated even worse then the 2002 favorites.

4)Sasha did not have alot of international experience or reputation in 2002, she was going to have really knock off a more established skater to beat them. By 2006 she had much more experience and status with the judges.

 

[GoldMedalist]

First, figures were a part of skating in 1988 and those results counted towards the overall total needed to win a skating competition. Just because you couldn't see them, doesn't mean they didn't happen, they just weren't televised.

I'm quite sure they did happen, there was simply no system of checks-and-balances in figures. Judges could do whatever they wanted to with the placement of skaters in figures because there was no camera that was designated to precisely capture the marks left by the blades of the skaters. The proof was destroyed. Why wasn't there a camera? Because figures are depressingly boring and nobody wants to watch that. The definition of a skating competition for most is performing on ice. There is no performance with figures. It's measuring skating skills, something which (A.) Skaters will have already demonstrated in the test they passed that allows them to compete in whatever level they are competing at in the first place, and, (B.) Judges should be rating skating skills while a skater performs their programs.

Now sometimes laws and rules are considered unfair and / or changes occur, and that's Yay! as well... But unlike in figure skating, in a court of law where people's lives hang in the balance, direct changes that would free an innocent person are possible.

In skating, this isn't always the best course of action. And while we can discuss it, we can't change it.

I'm gonna have to use this guy now -

I'm not saying that past records should be changed. Why did you spend about 75% of your post arguing against that idea?

I'm saying that we should always learn from the past and gain a better understanding of what really mattered and what needs to be changed for the future.

And while we can judge yesterday by today's standards and have a different opionion, we cannot say: well, I don't like that so it must be false. So we cannot say that figures don't count because in 1988 they did... We also can't say that Midori shoulda won in '88 and imply that its factual when its our opinion. Just like we can't say that Michelle Kwan should've been placed higher at worlds in '04 and '05 because she did not skate her best in the first round of competition that is the qualifying round.

We can't say that figures didn't count at that specific point in time -- that would be factually incorrect. They obviously existed and nobody can say they did not. What we CAN very well say is that they don't count in assessing our own opinions of the athletes at the time. Which is what I have been doing? Not arguing that the record books should be changed.

BTW, saying that qualifying rounds at Worlds should be ignored in talking about "who deserved what" is a very good suggestion. I definitely don't believe they should have factored into the points and luckily the governing body of ISU has reached that same conclusion (for the same reasons as my own, I would assume).

Now, I don't like the CoP but its the judging system that we have in place, by the ISU, currently to judge by - so, I must conform my opinions that system or run the risk of appearing foolish when I state woulda coulda shoulda on skating boards.

Wow, NO. You don't have to conform to anything. If there is something you dislike you should be arguing against it. Everyone complained about the Fan Spiral being a requirement in Spiral Sequences and now it's not. It wasn't foolish of people to say they hated it at that time - they were expressing an opinion. It became a widely accepted feeling and, as such, reality as we know it in figure has been changed. Voila! You're seeing progress in action!

And because I can be objective, I can see how certain skaters win and others do not - even if I personally feel the system blows...

If you personally feel that a certain skater won because of a flaw in the judging system (or the judging itself), tell us about it!!! Why simply accept what happened? No, the result won't change, but discussing figure skating is the whole reason we are here!

A good example I can use would be Kimmie Meissner winning the 2007 U.S. Championships. I felt that she shouldn't have because her Triple/Triple combinations were not properly rotated and yet she received full credit for them. If they had been graded correctly, she wouldn't have been in 1st place. So, in my mind, she was not the deserving winner. Clear, objective reasoning.

And yes, I do think that sometimes skaters who deserve to win were screwed, but what I think is one thing and what is gross injustic and outright cheating doesn't compare in my world to the judges sometimes simply holding a skater up because of their rep...

So, because "X" isn't as bad as "Y", X should simply be ignored?

I love this sport, but c'mon people... War is bad. Innocent people on death row is bad. Poor leadership in the White House is bad. Midori Ito losing the '88 Olympic Gold medal because she hadn't masted figures? Not so much...

(And yes, GoldMedalist, I do understand what you wrote and yes, we do come on boards to discuss different opinions and who shoulda won... but please, please, please... don't compare figure skating's bad judging to slavery or bad convictions... those things are truly unfair... bad judging just sucks.)

I'm pretty sure nobody here is trying to say figure skating should be considered as important as Wars that are going on. That would be your own gross mis-reading of the words I wrote. You're, like, blatantly ignoring what I've already said and I know you've read it because you quoted it...."In the case of Figure Skating and other sports, affirmative action simply isn't viable most of the time. The wrong person getting the Gold Medal is annoying, but it's not Slavery and it's not a big corporation shipping out a dangerous product that needs to be recalled."

There is no reason to accept something as right just because it happened. The idea of what I'm talking about with my examples is the same, even if they are differing levels of "seriousness". For example, Rosa Parks should not have been put in jail for what she did. That is an opinion, not a fact. However, it is an opinion that grew because people voiced their thoughts and that opinion is now agreed upon basically universally in our society.

The same thing applies to the society of figure skating. It may not be nearly as important (by a long, long way) but, in order to for me to view figure skating history truthfully and judge for myself what is really right and who was most deserving, I find necessary to apply critical thinking. I see no reason as to why evaluating the Sport in this manner is bad. TBH, if we don't do that, there would really be very little to talk about.

And, now, I need a nice drink. :yes:

 

[kandidy]

And, now, I need a nice drink. :yes:

^^ You really deserved it.

 

[slutskayafan21]

You know GoldMedalist gave me an idea. Since she/he decided to give competition medals not only based on his/her own subjective judging but while eliminating compulsory figures or the qualifying round or any aspect of the competition he/she feels should not have existed, I am going to give out my own medals but elimating parts of the competition I feel like too.

So how about the womens medals from the 2000 Worlds to the 2002 Olympics are only going to be determined by the short program. So the 2002 Olympic medals are now: gold-Kwan, silver-Slutskaya, bronze-Cohen, the miracle of Hughes never happened since I have chosen to disregard the long program, because....well I feel like it. Kwan has her elusive Olympic Gold now!! Now move back to the 2001 Worlds and the new medals are: gold-Slutskaya, silver-Kwan, bronze-Nikidinov, Irina you can wipe those tears after you had after Kwan passed you in that final free skate, the long program has now been omited from the final results, oh and Nikidinov gets the bronze instead of Hughes, woohoo! I am liking this so far. Now lets move back to the 2000 Worlds and would the medals now be: gold-Butyrskaya, silver-Slutskaya, bronze-Kwan? No since I have determined that if the short program was the only counting program, and Maria knew this, she would have faltered in some way so while in the hypothetical of the long program existing she turned in the winning short program she would missed something if it were the only program. So since I have made that decision the new medals are: gold-Slutskaya, silver-Kwan, bronze-Butyrskaya, yeah another World title for Irina.

Now from the 1995 Worlds to the 1999 Worlds I am going to give out medals for only the long program, eliminating the short program altogether. Why? Well I just feel like it, I am following GoldMedalist's example and simply elimating parts of the competition I dont feel belong, since it is silly to acknowledge parts of the competition that existed at the time you believe should not have. So the new 1995 Worlds medals are: gold-Chen, silver-Bonaly, bronze-Kwan. Thank god, now Bobek with 2 falls does not push Kwan's flawless and technically superb free skate off the podium, sorry Nicole. The 1996 Worlds medals would be : gold-Kwan, silver-Chen, bronze-Slutskaya, no wait would Kwan have placed in front of Chen in the long if there was no short program? Hmmm, I have to think about that.......well I came to the conclusion I dont know so I will award them co-gold medals: gold-Kwan, gold-Chen, bronze-Slutskaya.
Now on to the 1997 Worlds, oh thank god Michelle no longer loses the gold by default to Tara due to that silly mistake in the short program, and Irina blowing Vanessa and Maria out of the water and pushing Michelle and Tara with her excellent long program is not unrewarded because of that silly fall in the short. How nice I have chosen to relieve both women of their errors by choosing to eliminate the short program for this era, lucky them this is the era I have chosen to refuse to acknowledge the existence of the short, instead of only acknowledging the short like the preceding era. ok new medals would be: gold-Kwan, silver-Lipinski, bronze-Slutskaya, actually wait I am pretty sure the judges would have put Irina over Tara in the long if she was not 6th after the short, who cares if I can prove that or not, I feel like it and it is silly to acknowledge things if you dont feel they make sense, so : gold-Kwan, silver-Slutskaya, bronze-Lipinski. Now on to the 1998 Olympics, I choose to deem Kwan would have skated more freely in the long without the extra pressure of leading after the short which I have chosen not to acknowledge. So the new medals are: gold-Kwan, silver-Lipinski, bronze-Chen. Actually I think Maria would have skated more freely in the long too without being 3rd after the short, I dont want to bump Chen off though and ruin that emotional comeback story, and since I dont really know if Maria would have skated better enough to make the difference or not I choose to have them share the bronze so: bronze-Chen, bronze-Butyrskaya. Now on to the 1998 Worlds, we keep: gold-Kwan, silver-
Slutskaya, bronze-Butyrskaya, that was easy. Now on to the 1999 Worlds, thank god we god rid of the short program since we now have the surprise of the year Malinina, at the advanced age of 26 from little Uzbekistan adding a World bronze to her GP final win and other great success stories of the year, not losing it to Soldatova due to that silly mistake in the short program, which does not matter since I eliminated the short. Kwan loses her embarassing double axel fall in the short, but still settles for silver behind Maria who kicked a#s in the long. So new medals: gold-Butyrskaya, silver-Kwan, bronze-Malinina.

OK this has been lots of fun. I was able to get more of the people I like in positions I prefered by eliminating a certain program whenever I felt like it. I mean we shouldnt acknowledge a program was there just because the competition rules at the time had it there, I mean not if it doesnt make sense to us. :agree: Thank for letting me seeing how to judge past figure skating results in a new even more liberal way.

 

[GoldMedalist]

You know GoldMedalist gave me an idea. Since she/he decided to give competition medals not only based on his/her own subjective judging but while eliminating compulsory figures or the qualifying round or any aspect of the competition he/she feels should not have existed, I am going to give out my own medals but elimating parts of the competition I feel like too.

So the 2002 Olympic medals are now: gold-Kwan, silver-Slutskaya, bronze-Cohen, the miracle of Hughes never happened since I have chosen to disregard the long program, because....well I feel like it.

Oh, you're so funny.

If Midori Ito had consistently placed 1st in School Figures, I'd still think them a bad way of judging and keep them out of my mind entirely.

I'm not eliminating parts of competitions simply because "I feel like it". Nor am I picking and choosing certain years to include or not include a whole portion of competition. My thoughts are active across the board and don't always end up favoring the skater I might like the most. Indeed, I don't even CARE about the skater I "like" the most winning if that is not the truthful result when judging a competition as objectively as possible.

Of course, I'm sure you realize that (at least partly anyway). *Hint* - Trying to rebuttal with empty, over-the-top satire really doesn't get you anywhere. Pretty amusing, though.

We should do a thread for "pick your placements at XXX competition". That would be fun.

 

[anniemg]

I find it a little ironic that sasha skated BETTER in Salt Lake than in Torino. Both times she blew the roof off with her short, it was stunning both times. She opened both freeskates with a fall on the triple lutz combonation, and then in 2002 skated a perfect program, in 2006, had another fall and then skated a perfect program. She skated to the two classics. Carmen and Romeo and Juliet in the free, but reather unkown selctions in the short. But in 2002 she was fourth, 2006 she was second. is it just the juding system or what???

Slutskaya fan already replied, but i just wanted to add this: skaters dont get places authomaticaly, they are compared to other skaters in the competition in order to be placed 3rd of 5th or I dont know what. So you can't say that its the judging systmem: Sasha deserved to be 4rth and have those 3 skaters ahead of her in 2002, but she desserved to be 2nd in 2006 with only Arakawa being better than her in general in that competition.


Simple as that.

 

[rtureck]

I find it a little ironic that sasha skated BETTER in Salt Lake than in Torino.

Maybe relative to herself.

She skated to the two classics. Carmen and Romeo and Juliet in the free,

Carmen is a classic, well known over used opera. R and J is just some film music (elevator music) IMO not exactly classic, but overused piece of elevator type music.

But in 2002 she was fourth, 2006 she was second. is it just the juding system or what???

What I find interesting and IMO is that in both 02 and 06, Fumie should be placed ahead of her.

 

[mskater93]

I But in 2002 she was fourth, 2006 she was second. is it just the juding system or what???

Tinymavy, you're a figure skater and so should be aware (painfully sometimes) that figure skating placement is all relative to who's in your group. You can have the skate of your life and finished last if the rest of the group is relatively better and you can fall twice and finish in the top 3 if the rest of the group is relatively worse. It's not the judging system, it's the level of competition on a specific day.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I'm quite sure they did happen, there was simply no system of checks-and-balances in figures.. ...

So, in my mind, she was not the deserving winner. Clear, objective reasoning.



So, because "X" isn't as bad as "Y", X should simply be ignored?



I'm pretty sure nobody here is trying to say figure skating should be considered as important as Wars that are going on. That would be your own gross mis-reading of the words I wrote. You're, like, blatantly ignoring what I've already said and I know you've read it because you quoted it...."In the case of Figure Skating and other sports, affirmative action simply isn't viable most of the time. The wrong person getting the Gold Medal is annoying, but it's not Slavery and it's not a big corporation shipping out a dangerous product that needs to be recalled."

There is no reason to accept something as right just because it happened. The idea of what I'm talking about with my examples is the same, even if they are differing levels of "seriousness". For example, Rosa Parks should not have been put in jail for what she did. That is an opinion, not a fact. However, it is an opinion that grew because people voiced their thoughts and that opinion is now agreed upon basically universally in our society.
The same thing applies to the society of figure skating. It may not be nearly as important (by a long, long way) but, in order to for me to view figure skating history truthfully and judge for myself what is really right and who was most deserving, I find necessary to apply critical thinking. I see no reason as to why evaluating the Sport in this manner is bad. TBH, if we don't do that, there would really be very little to talk about.

And, now, I need a nice drink. :yes:

:sheesh:
I'm too busy to continue this "dialouge" so please allow the bold statements to equate as my version of "WTF??"

You know you've spent waaayyy too long on a subject when figure skating and Rosa Parks appear in the same statement...

As for the drink, I'm thinking you've had enough... And if not, please get me one... I'm on mojitos right now...

 

[Kwanford Wife]

You know GoldMedalist gave me an idea. Since she/he decided to give competition medals not only based on his/her own subjective judging but while eliminating compulsory figures or the qualifying round or any aspect of the competition he/she feels should not have existed, I am going to give out my own medals but elimating parts of the competition I feel like too.

OK this has been lots of fun. I was able to get more of the people I like in positions I prefered by eliminating a certain program whenever I felt like it. I mean we shouldnt acknowledge a program was there just because the competition rules at the time had it there, I mean not if it doesnt make sense to us. :agree: Thank for letting me seeing how to judge past figure skating results in a new even more liberal way.

Thank you Slutskayafan... this is why I love you so... just when I'm convinced that I'm finally too old for the skating boards because the silliness and angst has gone too damn far, you make me giggle... and confirm that its not me that crazy ...

 

[demarinis5]

:sheesh:
I'm too busy to continue this "dialouge" so please allow the bold statements to equate as my version of "WTF??"

You know you've spent waaayyy too long on a subject when figure skating and Rosa Parks appear in the same statement...

As for the drink, I'm thinking you've had enough... And if not, please get me one... I'm on mojitos right now...

Tee Hee

 

[slutskayafan21]

Thank you Slutskayafan... this is why I love you so... just when I'm convinced that I'm finally too old for the skating boards because the silliness and angst has gone too damn far, you make me giggle... and confirm that its not me that crazy ...

Your welcome, it was my pleasure.

 

[fumie_fumie]

But Mao doesn't do Lutz, most difficult jump.

You are right. It is just your humble opinion. Again, breaking Kwan's record is not one of YuNa's goals.

This just came to my attention.

You are funny. Using your logic, you're saying that Yu-na is a worse skater than Canadian junior female skater Myriane Samson who ranked 5th in this year's JGP events, because Yu-na doesn't have triple loops, but Samson does (btw Samson has landed gorgeous triple lutz and triple loop combinations in practice, you know). There are other female skaters who rank lower than Yu-na and who have good command of triple loops.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think it really matters. I'm able to enjoy both skaters as they are.

Joe

 

[fairly4]

mao & yun na kim record

boy, you guys really can't stay on course for the questions. can you.
you really don't want me complaining about the past. the question is about how Mao & Yu Na Kim will do now--only time will tell. how to compare themto the past- not who did whatjump/non jump in the past--is it possible to do the same--yes.--it is possible for them to do the 9 medals and sonya henies--it is just up to them--not us.


also as far as i can tell not one of you can look at this objectively without hurting your own feelings regarding your favorite skaters. frankly i think you care more than the skaters. so grow up, and try an look objectively.
all the skaters, michelle, katarina, sasha, did what they did then. can't change the past. you just have to make sure it doesn't happen again in the present and future.