Will Asada or Kim match Kwan's record for consecutive world podium finishes?

[bekalc]

That brings us around full circle to the part that "luck" plays in winning the OGM -- is Michelle's defeat in Nagano "extenuated" because she suffered a stress fracture in her big toe (having to withdraw from her last Championship Series event and the final) and was unable to practice her own 3/3 combination?

Perhaps. Besides, you have to wonder if a triple toe/ triple toe would have actually put MIchelle over Tara, considering the fact that Tara did a much harder combination along with a sequence. Sure one could argue that perhaps Michelle might have chosen to up the ante, but no offense, it's not like Michelle uped the ante for the rest of her career...
But Michelle was not injured in Salt Lake and skated worse there than she did in Nagano..So, it's not like Nagano was her only shot.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I thought that distinction belonged to Matt Savoie. But off course that's highly subjective. I'm sure many could (and have) argued in of Arakawa's artistry.

Arakawa and Savoie had my next 2 favorite Long Programs at the 2006 Olympics.

For Short Programs, I would pick Cohen #1, Lambiel #2, Weir #3.

 

[Jaana]

True but Yagudin has more world titles than Plushenko 4 to Plushenko's three, so that has to count for something....

Plushenko´s three World gold medals plus both Olympic gold and silver medal compensate that. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, Plushenko has more European gold medals and starting in season 1998-1999 he has won every Russian Nationals that he participated in. Yagudin never won it.

As for the whole Olympic medal thing...You do realize that Alexei Yagudin was skating his long program with over a 101 degree fever... And so he by no means skated what he was capable of skating.. If Yagudin had been healthier he more than likely would have medaled at that Olympics. That's one of those extenuating circumstances kind of thing.

Well, if we are mentioning injuries or fevers, Plushenko had to withdraw from one World Championships after sp (2005 injury or illness, I have forgotten) and was not able to participate in 2002 Worlds Championships because of an injury.

And if we start speculating, Eldredge probably would have won a medal in Nagano Olympics, if his freeskate had been later.. Anyway, Yagudin´s time was not in that Olympics, he was not ill at the short programme, skated well but was placed on fourth or fifth...

 

[demarinis5]

Michelle might have chosen to up the ante, but no offense, it's not like Michelle uped the ante for the rest of her career...
.

No offense taken, but this is one of my favorite myths from non Kwan fans.
Michelle was performing 7 triple programs in her prime and 6 triple programs
consistently throughout her career. Other than Irina (who was a fantastic technician but lacking in artistry imo) no other lady at that time came close to Michelle technically when it counted at competition and Kwan has the medals to back that fact up.

Sorry for the rant I am going to have my cup of coffee now.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

That first line IS the point, though. Cohen shouldn't take such a bashing for making mistakes. Why does someone else giving a "perfect" performance matter when a performance with a fall from Cohen is still superior? People should be praised for what they do well. Sasha's Silver Medal at the Olympics shouldn't be seen as a failure...it should be seen as her being the 2nd best female skater in the World at that time, which is a huge accomplishment. She turned out one the all-time best Short Programs and, in terms of artistry, her Long Program was also THE best performance at the Olympics in ANY field. In fact, I would have only had Arakawa ahead of Cohen by something like .7 with the SP and LP combined.

So? You said Slutskaya was the best SP skater of her generation. Slutskaya was competing at the Senior level just like Kwan from 1996 to 1999 and she was inferior all of those years. You need to take EVERYTHING into consideration if you're going to make such a broad statement.

I really don't care about "the system in place" one bit. You don't accept something in History as correct just because it happened. I give credence to my own thoughts, not ridiculous judges and a poor judging system. Figures hold absolutely 0 weight in my mind. Aside from just being bad in general, there is no documentation of what happened. I've never seen anyone who has a video of all the skaters going through their full figures runs or a detailed write-up of what every skater did. Judges could mess around with placement a lot in figures. Witt placed 3rd, but who knows if she deserved that. Maybe she should have been in 6th in figures. What I DO know is that Midori Ito absolutely should have been 1st place in both the SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics and the judges placed her 4th and 3rd. Shameful.

Fratianne, Poetzsch, and Biellmann were all better in 1980 than any competition Witt had in 1984. Not sure how you can even disagree; just look the Long Programs.

This whole post misses one very important thing: figure skating is a SPORT not a performance, not a show and certainly not an artistic endevour... If ya wanna win, ya gotta be better than everyone else who's there... its very simple. What makes Kwan's record commendable is that she's an athlete who was able to stay competitive for a very long time. The same is true of Irina and Katt.

Unfortunately, this isn't true of many of our favorite skaters and that's fine, regardless of the reason - figures, judging system, subjective feelings about what makes a skater "great" and personal fandoms - but at the end of the day, it comes down the athlete who can be perfect and better than everybody else when it counts and in skating that means staying verical, figuring out how to make the rules work for you and making sure that your techinal and mental issues are in check before your skate hits the ice... Its that simple and yet that hard.

 

[slutskayafan21]

This whole post misses one very important thing: figure skating is a SPORT not a performance, not a show and certainly not an artistic endevour... If ya wanna win, ya gotta be better than everyone else who's there... its very simple. What makes Kwan's record commendable is that she's an athlete who was able to stay competitive for a very long time. The same is true of Irina and Katt.

Unfortunately, this isn't true of many of our favorite skaters and that's fine, regardless of the reason - figures, judging system, subjective feelings about what makes a skater "great" and personal fandoms - but at the end of the day, it comes down the athlete who can be perfect and better than everybody else when it counts and in skating that means staying verical, figuring out how to make the rules work for you and making sure that your techinal and mental issues are in check before your skate hits the ice... Its that simple and yet that hard.

Exactly.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I have no idea what you're going on about or how it even related to what I was saying. But one thing I would like to talk about:

This whole post misses one very important thing: figure skating is a SPORT not a performance, not a show and certainly not an artistic endevour...

Figure skating is a sport where performance, "artistry" counts a lot. It's unique in that way.

Sports, the big ones anyway, are also CAREERS. If you do something memorable, it helps your career. You don't need the Gold Medal in figure skating, even though that's obviously one goal to constantly strive for. Gold-less Philippe Candeloro and Gold-less Sasha Cohen have made plenty of money from their skating.

 

[Mathman]

...at the end of the day, it comes down the athlete who can be perfect and better than everybody else when it counts and in skating that means staying verical, figuring out how to make the rules work for you and making sure that your techinal and mental issues are in check before your skate hits the ice...

IMHO, to evaluate a skater's legacy we should consider everything, not just who could work the rules the best, etc.

"At the end of the day," which skaters leave behind the most impressive body of work ? (to use Joesitz' phrase :yes: )

Evgeni Plushenko won a lot of prizes. Which performances of his do you keep on tape, to play back over and over, each time with renewed delight?

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I have no idea what you're going on about or how it even related to what I was saying. But one thing I would like to talk about:



Figure skating is a sport where performance, "artistry" counts a lot. It's unique in that way.

Sports, the big ones anyway, are also CAREERS. If you do something memorable, it helps your career. You don't need the Gold Medal in figure skating, even though that's obviously one goal to constantly strive for. Gold-less Philippe Candeloro and Gold-less Sasha Cohen have made plenty of money from their skating.

Absolutely... in skating, performance DOES count a lot and there is nothing worse to that performance than an overall great skate being marred by a fall, flip out, shaky / flat edges or spin that falls off its center...

And please note that while I am an admitted podium snob, I totally understand the concept of CAREER vs. OGM Gold Medal ... very few of those I consider the Greatest of All Time have olympic gold medals, espcially Kwan, Irina, Browning and S/Z... The shining exceptions include Katt, Brain B and DivaKwara...

And why don't my all time greats have gold medals? While hitting perfection more times than not, at the Olympics, for whatever reason, when their skates hit the ice - they didn't control the nerves and failed to skate better than somebody else and in this sport that's all that matters, when it comes to winning ~ their actual performance ended up being a side issue outside of making me happy (of course, when Michelle stumbled in '02, I was in tears and cursed the judges for not placing Sarah lower in the short...cause I'm an uber like that )

 

[Kwanford Wife]

IMHO, to evaluate a skater's legacy we should consider everything, not just who could work the rules the best, etc.

"At the end of the day," which skaters leave behind the most impressive body of work ? (to use Joesitz' phrase :yes: )

Evgeni Plushenko won a lot of prizes. Which performances of his do you keep on tape, to play back over and over, each time with renewed delight?

But I'm not talking about a skater's legacy... I'm talking about the difference between viewing skating as a sport vs. a performance art. In terms of legacy - Janet Lynn has an awesome body of work as does Biellmann... its unfortunate they don't have the medals to show for their tremendous talent. And the original question wasn't about body of work but about the ability to land on the world's podium 9 consecutive times... that kinda record is about athletic ability within a sport, not about beauty of the performance (granted, in my not so humble opinion - No One compares to a Michelle Kwan performance - cause I'm a fan...)

For example - I don't think Brett Farve is the best QB ever, I think Tom Brady is... but the Farve's ability to stay on top is awe inspiring... And regardless of who you root for, you cannot deny that Farve has a record that is gonna be hard to top - regardless of how many Super Bowls you win...

As for Plushy... I like to re-watch his olympic program, cause that's Plushy at his most arrogant... its all "look at me, flapping my arms and I'm STILL better than you!!"

 

[R.D.]

in fact one can argue that the ONLY "sporty" element of skating is the placement factor (and that's even decided by judges). Everything else is performance-oriented.

 

[slutskayafan21]

(of course, when Michelle stumbled in '02, I was in tears and cursed the judges for not placing Sarah lower in the short...cause I'm an uber like that )

I felt that at the time too funnily enough. It is interesting people say Sarah deserved the Olympic Gold hands down after seeing the free skates. I would say she deserved to win the free skate hands down, she skated better then either Michelle or Irina did. However she was lucky to not be 6th or 7th in the short program, she had so many shaky elements, and the scores of Suguri, Butyrskaya, and Sebeysten were less then generous, and yet all still took judges off of her. Sarah ended up 4th in the short with only 3 4th place votes, but the judges could not decide who to put 4th in the short, but she is lucky it was her. The memories of her mediocre short program fade away to most it seems, but if her short was scored correctly she would have won only the bronze medal.

Although I am an Irina fan, I probably would have placed Kwan 2nd in the long, Slutskaya 3rd, and I wondered at the time if the judges did the other way to ensure Hughes winning overall to avoid controversy after the pairs scandal had created a "dont fall, others do you, you should win" automatic vibe to people.

 

[attyfan]

...
Although I am an Irina fan, I probably would have placed Kwan 2nd in the long, Slutskaya 3rd, and I wondered at the time if the judges did the other way to ensure Hughes winning overall to avoid controversy after the pairs scandal had created a "dont fall, others do you, you should win" automatic vibe to people.

Wasn't there some debate as to whether the pairs scandal prejudiced the judges against Irina? I don't recall, though, if this was in connection with the judging of the SP or the FS.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Wasn't there some debate as to whether the pairs scandal prejudiced the judges against Irina? I don't recall, though, if this was in connection with the judging of the SP or the FS.

It was after the SP there was this speculation IIRC.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

It was after the SP there was this speculation IIRC.

For some reason, I sorta remember it being more about Irina's reaction to being in second than the actual judging and then the media picked up on this to keep the controversay going...

I thought Sarah was overscored in the short program, but I'd be lying if I said that Michelle shoulda been second... Irinia was all over the place and that Tosca hairpulling and scratchy landings still trumped Michelle's timid skating and stumble on that flip... The saddest part was that if ever there should'a been a showdown to end all showdowns with biblical propotions, espcially after the pairs' drama than Michelle vs. Irina '02 shoulda been it... Which goes to show how slippery the ice really is... regardless of who won... It still kills me to this day that we talk about Sarah Hughes' free skate vs. who shoulda won between the two who were truly the best of their era...

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't think Michelle was timid after the mistake on the Flip. She skated more beautiful than Irina.

Irina should have been 4th place overall for sure. Her long program was slow and boring and her tech was not up to her usual standard. The three American women should have swept the podium, although it's a little hard to decide placements. The whole "ranking" system of 6.0 was really dumb so I don't even think about that at all. Sarah's SP wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. Does Michelle's superior artistry in the SP make up for Sarah's way superior tech in the LP? Probably not. In the end I usually go with Sarah #1, Michelle #2, Cohen #3.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I don't think Michelle was timid after the mistake on the Flip. She skated more beautiful than Irina.

Irina should have been 4th place overall for sure. Her long program was slow and boring and her tech was not up to her usual standard. The three American women should have swept the podium, although it's a little hard to decide placements. The whole "ranking" system of 6.0 was really dumb so I don't even think about that at all. Sarah's SP wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. Does Michelle's superior artistry in the SP make up for Sarah's way superior tech in the LP? Probably not. In the end I usually go with Sarah #1, Michelle #2, Cohen #3.

Wow... I gotta ask.... Do you honestly think that Sasha's long program at the 2002 Olympics was deserving of the bronze medal? Over Irina and Maria? Is that in terms of skating or simple desire to see an American sweep? I ask this because that's kinda deep... and something I've never heard nor contemplated...

 

[ks777]

I thought Irina should have been 1st after SP but that's just me I guess.

 

[slutskayafan21]

For some reason, I sorta remember it being more about Irina's reaction to being in second than the actual judging and then the media picked up on this to keep the controversay going...

I agree on that. I didnt think it was a big controversy that Irina was 2nd in the short. I think either Michelle or Irina could have won the short depending on judges preference. However Irina was used to winning the short during that time frame as I noted earlier in this thread, so when she skated cleanly and lost the short on a 5-4 split I think it sent her through a jolt, and some people from her "camp" may have said some things that spared some debate.

I thought Sarah was overscored in the short program, but I'd be lying if I said that Michelle shoulda been second... Irinia was all over the place and that Tosca hairpulling and scratchy landings still trumped Michelle's timid skating and stumble on that flip...

Fair enough. The reason I had Michelle 2nd was that she still landed 5 clean triples, Irina even without her fall only landed 4 very solid triples; both stood up 6 triples although Michelle was missing one of the most important ones (triple flip) due to the fall. I thought Irina was slower then her usual standard, and Michelle's overall performance was just more confident. Still it wasnt an easy call between the two I agree.

The saddest part was that if ever there should'a been a showdown to end all showdowns with biblical propotions, espcially after the pairs' drama than Michelle vs. Irina '02 shoulda been it... Which goes to show how slippery the ice really is... regardless of who won... It still kills me to this day that we talk about Sarah Hughes' free skate vs. who shoulda won between the two who were truly the best of their era...

ITA

 

[slutskayafan21]

Wow... I gotta ask.... Do you honestly think that Sasha's long program at the 2002 Olympics was deserving of the bronze medal? Over Irina and Maria? Is that in terms of skating or simple desire to see an American sweep? I ask this because that's kinda deep... and something I've never heard nor contemplated...

I know you arent asking me, but I thought Sasha being 4th at the 2002 Olympics was an easy call, and apparently so did the judges as it was a pretty convincing decision to put her below the other 3 on their part . Other then her fall and two footed landing on a later triple, she had very shallow edges, small jumps with weaker technique, simpler choreography with so much plain stroking from element to element, and there quite frankly wasnt that much Carmen in her Carmen I thought. Sasha was just entering the senior scene full time after some health problems, and she was already very good but still had alot of work to do on her skating. She was never going to beat Kwan or Slutskaya with all 3 making mistakes as happened in SLC.