Will Worlds & Nats be a let down?

[RealtorGal]

Everyone seems to be so excited about the COP and the movement it is allowing between SP/LP etc. Since I believe that they are planning to use the traditional scoring system at Worlds and Nats this year, do you think that will be a letdown in any way?

 

[nymkfan51]

No ... not for me! I'm going to my first Nationals, and honestly couldn't care less what scoring system they use! I expect the ladies event to be fantastic ... and the ice dance will be great too, with 3 teams that I love!

I actually think it will be interesting to see how the skaters who have been participating in the Grand Prix under COP will do under the old system.

 

[RealtorGal]

Under the COP system, I think that the skaters have the motivation to skate great in the LP even if they have not placed well in the SP, because they know that they could still medal with an outstanding performance. In the traditional system, if you're not in the top 4 or 5, it's all over; and I believe that just saps one's motivation. Yes, they all want to skate well in the LP, but the energy level just has to be different between skating well just for personal satisfaction and skating well to possibly medal.

 

[Jhar55]

NYMKFAN, you'll love Nationals. I've only been once myself when it was in Nashville. I was there all day, got there early had a practice pass so you could get in before the regular sessions. Never left the place until it was time to go home. ( dress warm )

 

[skatepixie]

Im not a COP-out fan...so the lack of COP for me will be a cause to partay!

Worlds will be a let down, however, because Im really going to miss Lyohsa, in a big way!

Also, I will be subjected to Timmy's idea of music at both events and possibly Elena S's rotten short program selection.

But, other than that, itsa gonna be great!

 

[MasterF]

ALWAYS THE MAIN EVENT

Worlds and Nationals have always been the premiere events, I can only remember about once were the events were kind of dull and that was only at Nationals, Not worlds. Maybe 85 nationals

There is so much talent to see in the other divisions and that is lots of fun. I hope everyone that goes enjoys, I know I do when I go.

MY next stop will be Worlds 2005 in MOSCOW. My bank book is ready.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the CoP still needs some fine tuning, but so far I am finding it very intersting The Skate America results were fine but I think they would be the same with the 6.0 system. I'm checking out the other GPs to see if the results of the CoP would be the same if they judged in the 6.0 system.

One thing I am concerned about is the role of the Caller. He makes important judgements as does the Referee in Tennis. With flash back and slo mo in Tennis you get to see various clips of the close call play. We will not get that in figure skating so judgements on flutzes, underrotates and overrotates will just have to be accepted.

But there is evidence that the skater is able to plan more strategy. For MK, she doesn't have to knock herself out with 3x3s because as it has been with Sasha 3x2s will increse scores.

I'm happy with the CoP but I would like more informtion live from the Caller. I presume this will be discussed after the GP Finals.

Joe

 

[show 42]

Not for me.........I'm exciting about watching Nationals and Worlds every year. For me, I hope there will be a "break-out" performance from some skater or pair that will knock everyone's socks off! 42

 

[Mathman]

To me, the only thing that could make these premier events dull is if the skaters don't perform well. But I expect that lots of people will be doing CoP scoring at home, just to see if it would have turned out any different.

Mathman

 

[berthes ghost]

Everyone seems to be so excited about the COP

Speak for yourself. When the more watched events like Nats and Worlds come around, I'm sure that there will be a lot more head scratching going on with this loopy new system. Not everyone has the time and inclination to study some nerdy system just to follow a sport. It's so arcane, they're going to have to give fans instruction classes.

 

[RealtorGal]

People manage to enjoy gymnastics without understanding its COP; they will do the same with skating. Under the COP, skaters have a chance to move up after the SP if their LP is fabulous. Not true under the old system. That movement just has to make competition more exciting for both the skaters AND the fans--regardless of whether or not they understand the intricacies of the new system.

 

[berthes ghost]

Under the COP, skaters have a chance to move up after the SP if their LP is fabulous.

Tell that to poor Jubert. Second in the LP but left off the podium behind Weiss' meltdown of an LP and van der Perren's axelless/quadless effort.:\

Under COP, skaters have a chance to build up insurmountable leads in the SP, just like back in the days of big bad figures. Anett and Trixi, this ones for you babes! :sheesh:

 

[berthes ghost]

Not true under the old system.

You'll have to explain this one to me, because this is how is see it:

SP
1. Plushy = .5
2. Takahashi =1
3. Weiss = 1.5
4. Kevin =2
5. Shubin = 2.5
6. Jubert =3

LP
1. Plushy =1
2. Jubert = 2
3. Kevin =3
4. Weiss =4
5. Takahashi =5

Plushy 1+.5 = 1.5 =gold
Jubert 3+2 = 5 =silver
Kevin 2+3 = 5 =bronze
Weiss 1.5+4 = 5.5 =4th place

Seems to me the old system would have bumped Brian up to a medal while the new system kept him down.

 

[Mathman]

Revenge of the Nerds, Berthe's Ghost.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think SOME posters do not like the CoP. I do, but ya know, the cynic I am, I see the continuation of stange scores for individual elements, for instance:

Sasha dd not execute a 3x2 in the entire performance at SA. (This is not a bash, it is just fact.) yet she was given a score of 4.9 (after the requisite minuses). What was meant by the 4.9? If it was for the Lutz then why didn't the Zayak rule prevail since she already had done, I believe, 2 previous lutzes. I may be reading this wrongly so any correction (or agreement) would be most welcomed.

As to Gymnastics, the CoP works much easier there, imo. The judges are not bombarded with constant tricks as they are in figures skating together with edging, flow, moves in the field, etc., etc.. Just my view of the difference in the sports.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

Berthes: you are right in that instance. However, at Cup of China the ladies' results would have been different:

Liashenko : 3.5 + 1 = 4.5
Onda: 1.5 + 2 = 3.5

 

[skatingfan5]

Sasha's Phantom Phlutz combo!

Sasha dd not execute a 3x2 in the entire performance at SA. (This is not a bash, it is just fact.) yet she was given a score of 4.9 (after the requisite minuses). What was meant by the 4.9? If it was for the Lutz then why didn't the Zayak rule prevail since she already had done, I believe, 2 previous lutzes. I may be reading this wrongly so any correction (or agreement) would be most welcomed.

Sasha WAS given credit for a 3lutz-combo attempt -- it was listed as her 9th technical element. However, after watching the Skate Canada broadcast yesterday, I have taken to calling it her phantom phlutz combo. There was not the slightest indication of a second jump after her botched lutz (or flip -- at SK and Lalique her program elements list only one lutz and 2 flips). So I guess the caller -- AND the technical supervisor who oversees things -- who at Skate Canada was none other than Alexander Lakernik, the chair of ISU's technical committee -- were both seeing a combo attempt that was invisible to you and me (and Uncle Dick AND Sasha, who said that "not having a combo cost me a lot"). Not only did Sasha get credit for a Zayak rule 3lutz (she was given base mark of 6.1 and then a GOE of -2.2), but she also got the 10% bonus on it for it being after the 2 minute mark. So much for the much stressed improvement in accuracy of the new code of point. To me it seems like too much rests on one person's perception (the caller). Much better to have 9 judges giving their own evaluation, than one person's judgment being forced on the entire panel. JMO.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thank you SkatingFan for the follow up on my query. I should have said SC and not SA but you caught it anyway. There was no 3x2 combo in Sasha's LP at SC as I thought and actually there was no lutz either yet she got points in spite of the Zayak rule anyway.

This Caller business is going to be a problem. Think Amber and Michael penalized but not Sasha.

I'm certainly not blaming Sasha. She has no control over her marks. But someone is overlooking key factors in grading, and that has to be addressed after the GP is over and before it becomes the Law of the Land, and it will become the Law of the Land.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Joe & SkatingFan,
I agree that Sasha got credit for a combo attempt that may have been an attempt in her head, but that's all, and also was not penalized under the Zayak Rule because the Caller saw a combo attempt.

I also agree that the COP with gymnastics is simpler than it is with figure skating. For one thing, in gymnastic there is no "presentation" mark. It's always been just one score for a gymnast's performance on a given apparatus, not a technical and a presentation as it has been in figure skating.

As for the Caller, I'm hoping for the day when each judge has iinstant video replay of any part of the program from at least two or three different camera angles, if not four. With the available technology in video recording and computers, I see no reason why this cannot be implement at least on the elite senior circuit. Cost would be the only impediment I can see to using it at all levels. This way there would be no need for a Caller because each judge could decide how well an element has been executed or if it has been executed at all.

As far as a skater easily being able to build up an "insurmountable lead in the SP": The SP TSS is only worth about half of what the LP TSS is worth, so I can't see that it would be likely that a skater could build up an "insurmountable" lead based only on the SP. The skater or team could have a substantial lead, but if s/he/they have a meltdown in the LP, that lead can still vanish. I think the COP does the opposite, that is, allows a skater to make a come-back in the LP, which is what happened with Jeff Buttle at Skate Canada where he was 4th after the SP with a TSS of about 67 and 2nd after the LP with a TSS of about 141.

Of course the COP needs tweaking, but I've found it very easy understand with a little examination of the Detailed Results. Besides, it's not like wonky results never happened with the SP/LP 6.0 system.

ON-TOPIC: I think Nats and Worlds will be just as exciting and will probably generate some interesting controversy since, as I think Mathman said, a lot of fans will be doing their own COP evaluations. I wonder if the ISU will also have a panel of judges and a caller using the COP just to compare outcomes. Though no doubt we'd never know, lol.
Rgirl

 

[skatingfan5]

Joe & SkatingFan,
I agree that Sasha got credit for a combo attempt that may have been an attempt in her head, but that's all, and also was not penalized under the Zayak Rule because the Caller saw a combo attempt.

Actually, I don't think Sasha even had an "attempt in her head" because she was completely forthright about not having a combo in her post-skate interview. Maybe it was the power of Tarasova's thought waves sending a "lutz combo" message to the caller -- and fellow Russian, Mr. Lakernik.

And, no, I certainly don't think that Nationals or Worlds will be a let down because they won't have the special computers and the "toss out high & low" and the caller, assistant tech specialist, technical supervisor, et al. It will be a relief to at least see open judging (at Nationals) -- to bad there's still the "secret computer" for Worlds, 4 Continents, and Euros.