Women and the Quad

[zounger]

That is an interesting point. The IJS scale of values lists a separate base value for a 4Lz<, as if it were, for scoring purposes, a different jump altogether from either a 3Lz or a 4Lz. The base vale for the 4Lz< jump is 9.20 (considerably higher than a fully rotated triple Axel, for instance).

In fact, the base value for a 4Lz< (3.75 revolutions or so) is pretty much exactly half-way between the base value for a triple Axel (3.5 revolutions) and a 4Lz (4.0 revolutions), which has some sort of logic to it, I guess.

Anyway, the three jumps 4Lz, 3A< and another 3A< adds up (before GOE) to 22.00 points. To beat that a quadster without a triple Axel would have to do 4T, 4S, 2A = 22.50.

You are coming to my words now . Add to that positive GOEs and you have your equation (or inequality better).

 

[Edwin]

But in this argumentation, the rules completely forget the considerably more difficulty of the only jump in the rules with a forwards entry.
The cited mathematics were perhaps drawn up before the ‘quads revolution’ came on the ice?

When is the next rules revision due?
Or will there be a review first with proposals for the federations to consider?

 

[Mathman]

But in this argumentation, the rules completely forget the considerably more difficulty of the only jump in the rules with a forwards entry.

The cited mathematics were perhaps drawn up before the ‘quads revolution’ came on the ice?

The big change in how to score < and e jumps came two years ago. Also, the base value for the triple Axel was reduced from 8.5 to 8.0. The quads revolution for men came quite a bit before that (in fact, you could say that it was around the time of Yagudin and Plushenko.) And in fact the rules for this year slightly disadvantage the prodigious quadsters (compared to previous editions of the Scale of Values) like Nathan Chen who can win by just doing one quad after another as fast as he can.

Ladies is a new phenomenon (but we will have to see how it plays out at the senior level.)

When is the next rules revision due?

The ISU tweaks the Scale of Values every year; there will be a new one next May or so. I am not completely certain of all the details, but for major changes I believe that the proposal would be initiated by the Technical Committee, or by an individual member, then circulated to the membership for a vote.

A fundamental change like the substituting "technical program" and the "artistic program" for the SP and the LP would not be put into place until after 2022.

 

[Elucidus]

https://youtu.be/furQClUOzYA?t=1997
Some interesting analysis of Alysa's 4Lz there

 

[NaVi]

Here's Alysa's 4Lz from 4 different angles.

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1165394803544096769

What I find interesting is that to me there are different angles where the jump looks more suspect than others. When I first watched it, only the first one made me think it was UR... just now watching it, only the 3rd one looks good.

 

[Vandevska]

Here's Alysa's 4Lz from 4 different angles.

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1165394803544096769

What I find interesting is that to me there are different angles where the jump looks more suspect than others. When I first watched it, only the first one made me think it was UR... just now watching it, only the 3rd one looks good.

Actually the second one is the glaringly obviously one for me.

 

[mrrice]

Actually the second one is the glaringly obviously one for me.

We need to remember that Alysa is still a Junior. There are Senior Men who don't even attempt a Quad Lutz. Glaring is such harsh word to use.

 

[NaVi]

Even if it's UR, it's still worth doing. Even if she UR and falls she's at most losing a point or so.

 

[Vandevska]

We need to remember that Alysa is still a Junior. There are Senior Men who don't even attempt a Quad Lutz. Glaring is such harsh word to use.

Just because she's a junior and senior men can be even worse doesn't make it less true. And my comment was in relation to which of the 4 angles makes the << easiest to see.

 

[Vandevska]

Even if it's UR, it's still worth doing. Even if she UR and falls she's at most losing a point or so.

For a << she gets less points, and for a fall it's a - 1 deduction and - 5 GOE across the board. So instead of getting 6+ points for a nice 3Lz, she'd get around 4 for the 4Lz and a deduction.

 

[NaVi]

For a << she gets less points, and for a fall it's a - 1 deduction and - 5 GOE across the board. So instead of getting 6+ points for a nice 3Lz, she'd get around 4 for the 4Lz and a deduction.

But it's not replacing a 3Lz, it's replacing a 2A.

 

[Mr Cat]

We need to remember that Alysa is still a Junior. There are Senior Men who don't even attempt a Quad Lutz. Glaring is such harsh word to use.

What difference does that make? If she is getting full credit for this jump, that is extremely unfair to the other competitors. It's a sport, there is no "A for effort"

 

[mrrice]

What difference does that make? If she is getting full credit for this jump, that is extremely unfair to the other competitors. It's a sport, there is no "A for effort"

She's not is she? We were discussing whether or not it's worth it to 'Attempt" She has been called in all of her attempts. Is it worth it for to go for the quad with an UR, rather than perform a clean 3L instead. I still don't know which would be better for her point wise.

 

[Mathman]

Here's what I say.

It is not the critic who counts; not the pundit who points out how the valiant athlete stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the skater who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, … but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends herself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if she fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that her place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

 

[Vandevska]

But it's not replacing a 3Lz, it's replacing a 2A.

I meant sometimes a great 3Lz can be more worthwhile than a wanna-be 4Lz. However, unless she tries she'll never get it so kudos to her for trying.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

That is an interesting point. The IJS scale of values lists a separate base value for a 4Lz<, as if it were, for scoring purposes, a different jump altogether from either a 3Lz or a 4Lz. The base vale for the 4Lz< jump is 9.20 (considerably higher than a fully rotated triple Axel, for instance).

In fact, the base value for a 4Lz< (3.75 revolutions or so) is pretty much exactly half-way between the base value for a triple Axel (3.5 revolutions) and a 4Lz (4.0 revolutions), which has some sort of logic to it, I guess.

Anyway, the three jumps 4Lz, 3A< and another 3A< adds up (before GOE) to 22.00 points. To beat that a quadster without a triple Axel would have to do 4T, 4S, 2A = 22.50.

Im pretty sure when you add GOE points you will score more with clean 4T and 2A (for which Kamila got 17 points for example) comparing to underrotated 4Lz and UR 3A (which with - GOE
wont worth more than 15 points).

 

[neud]

I meant sometimes a great 3Lz can be more worthwhile than a wanna-be 4Lz. However, unless she tries she'll never get it so kudos to her for trying.

Unless you are doing two 3Lz in FS already, then you can't add the third one.

 

[nussnacker]

I think it depends whether it will be called UR or downgraded.
If it's UR it can get 0 +1 GOE, we've already seen girls and boys get 0 +1 GOE for URd jumps at courchevel.
If it's going to be called downgraded, the BV and GOE might cut it way lower.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think it depends whether it will be called UR or downgraded.
If it's UR it can get 0 +1 GOE, we've already seen girls and boys get 0 +1 GOE for URd jumps at courchevel.
If it's going to be called downgraded, the BV and GOE might cut it way lower.

It doesnt depend just of that. If your jumps worth for example +4 GOE after deducting negative GOE for UR they will stay in positive. If your jumps worth +1 or +2 GOE with deducting negatives for UR they will end up with zero or negatives. I was counted points in case of UR jumps done by Alisa Liy which can be spotted in real time by the panel of judges, not in case of UR jumps done by Polina Tsurskaya for example, which are hard to be spotted at first

 

[jenaj]

I meant sometimes a great 3Lz can be more worthwhile than a wanna-be 4Lz. However, unless she tries she'll never get it so kudos to her for trying.

She already had 2 3lutzes in her program so she couldn’t do another one. She did 8 triples along with that 4Lz, including 2 3As, so the 4Lz is just icing.