Women and the Quad

[yume]

I think there is room for a 3A but maybe i hope too much. Her 2A is not bad.

I just want to say that i called Lil Bet's 3A.

Let's be honest, going back to Eteri was the best thing that ever happen to Lil Bet.

Blessed the day Orser told her to not come back to TCC.

 

[Elucidus]

What kind of backwards logic. Why should there be any additional leeway allowed? A quad is supposed to be an extremely hard jump for a reason. It gets many more points for a reason. An underrotated quad is also still worth more points than a Triple. Let's call it as it is.

You are right - quad is very hard jump. And it remains as very hard jump - prerotated or not. Else everyone and their moms would be jumping it now

It's already sad enough that so many of these girls are ignoring basic technique. They can't do a great Triple jump, or Double Axel, to save their lives. They've just learned the trick of pivoting on their toepick, whipping their bodies off the ice, and squeezing tight.

You said it implying it is just a mere trick which should be quite easy to do, right? Guess what? It's not. I mean - who wouldn't want to get huge tes advantage and couple of medals along the way? Just by learning some simple trick? Of course - everyone. Why they don't do it though? Well, maybe because for stable quad you need to jump to atleast 50cm above ice - which majority of skaters are just not able to? Or maybe because you need to ratate with atleast 5 RPS speed in a jump - which again majority of skaters are just not able to? If so - why we shouldn't award rare athletes who are capable to do such a feat? :scratch3:

 

[Blades of Passion]

You are right - quad is very hard jump. And it remains as very hard jump - prerotated or not.

It's not as hard when pre-rotated. The scoring system is supposed to be evaluating the elements as accurately as possible.

Again, an underrotated Quad is still worth more points than a Triple. It does show a certain ability still. However, it's not worth as much as a full quad, for good reason.

im confused about who of the 3 female skaters who have landed quads this season didn't jump big?

The size of their quads are far below those of top guys. They are able to do them because of cheating the rotation. In some cases it might be a small enough cheat to count for "full" credit, but other times not (in Trusova's case, all of her Quads I've seen in competition are more than 1/4 short). In any case, the GOE should be quite low. They've been getting +4's on them, which is way too much. That goes for their overall jumps in general, they are all quite spindly, yet receiving very high GOE.

 

[Elucidus]

Again, an underrotated Quad is still worth more points than a Triple. It does show a certain ability still. However, it's not worth as much as a full quad, for good reason.

Underrotated and prerotated are different notions though. When you are talking about UR quads - in most cases it means underrotated AND prerotated quad. Which of course should be worth less points. Still, fully rotated but prerotated quad is another matter (i.e. Scherbakova's 4Lz). As for Trusova's 4Lz - I agree that it's a bit less rotated than Anna's - but it's just being nitpicky IMO. Her 4T are much more rotated though.

The size of their quads are far below those of top guys.

In Trusova's case - sorry, but it's just blatant lie. Some of her quads are 60cm above ice - while some of Hanyu's are 50cm
https://pp.userapi.com/c850632/v850632008/ab2ae/J4vnbeijQ0I.jpg

 

[oatmella]

Trusova's quads are small? lol ... she herself is small, not her quads

And she will continue to receive high GOE for them in seniors

 

[moriel]

honestly, if Satoko gets any credits for her jumps, i see no issue with Trusova's and Shcherbakova's quads.
Tons of seniors have tiny jumps, much smaller than of those two girls. Tons of seniors pre-rotate and pretty much always get away with it. Tons of seniors UR, and quite commonly dont get called.

 

[sx98423]

The size of their quads are far below those of top guys. They are able to do them because of cheating the rotation. In some cases it might be a small enough cheat to count for "full" credit, but other times not (in Trusova's case, all of her Quads I've seen in competition are more than 1/4 short). In any case, the GOE should be quite low. They've been getting +4's on them, which is way too much. That goes for their overall jumps in general, they are all quite spindly, yet receiving very high GOE.

i feel like theres been more than enough evidence to show that sasha and anna have huge quads in terms of height, some as high or higher than the men. not sure why this is even an issue, anyone can see that they get good height even in real time.

as for general comparisons most ladies don't jump triples as high as the men do so idky this is an issue either.

 

[FCSSp4]

Underrotated and prerotated are different notions though. When you are talking about UR quads - in most cases it means underrotated AND prerotated quad. Which of course should be worth less points. Still, fully rotated but prerotated quad is another matter (i.e. Scherbakova's 4Lz). As for Trusova's 4Lz - I agree that it's a bit less rotated than Anna's - but it's just being nitpicky IMO. Her 4T are much more rotated though.


In Trusova's case - sorry, but it's just blatant lie. Some of her quads are 60cm above ice - while some of Hanyu's are 50cm
https://pp.userapi.com/c850632/v850632008/ab2ae/J4vnbeijQ0I.jpg

Didn't they do Icescope on Hanyu's 4lo and it was 64 cm? From what I gather it's hard to get height on the loop so chances are that's his smallest quad. And his 3A is 70 cm. They seem to be accurate so I assume his 4T and 4S are about that range especially because he doesn't prerotate. You can see some stats here:

https://twitter.com/BaseValue1/status/1111954485281091584
https://twitter.com/BaseValue1/status/1108704788135317505

After the Olympics, a JP newspaper measured:
4S: 70 cm (3.6m)
4T: 71 cm (3.6m)
His smallest measured jump in Pyeongchang was -3S (from 3A1lo3S): 55cm (2.1m)

Can't wait to see how Icescope will measure Anna and Trusova's quads though. I like how that technology captures length and height.

 

[kwanatic]

I wonder if Alena Kostornaia will be adding that 3A to her layout next season? I respect that she played it safe last year and it ended up paying off a few times. She's already got the PCS advantage over the other two and can come within 3-4 points of their scores even when they hit quads which means if she had the added boost of a 3A she'd likely finish ahead of them more frequently.

Can she still do the 3A? The one she did in that video looked ridiculously effortless. I wonder if they left it out so that she could work on it and get it more stable before adding it in. Also is she working on quads too? Alena gets a lot of air on her jumps. I could see her doing a quad...

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I wonder if Alena Kostornaia will be adding that 3A to her layout next season? I respect that she played it safe last year and it ended up paying off a few times. She's already got the PCS advantage over the other two and can come within 3-4 points of their scores even when they hit quads which means if she had the added boost of a 3A she'd likely finish ahead of them more frequently.

Can she still do the 3A? The one she did in that video looked ridiculously effortless. I wonder if they left it out so that she could work on it and get it more stable before adding it in. Also is she working on quads too? Alena gets a lot of air on her jumps. I could see her doing a quad...

She has not been able to jump the 3A since summer. She gets little injuries whenever she attempts it.

 

[[email protected]]

I have to admit it: I said at one point in time that I never saw Elizabet moving beyond a solid 5th-7th place finisher. If she adds that to her program next year she'll be one of the few who has both a 3A and a quad.

She will be the only so far.

 

[kwanatic]

She will be the only so far.

I don't doubt Kihira will be throwing a quad in at some point next season too. That girl has cajones! She's been working on them and they look good.

Kihira's landed the axels, Lil Bet the quad...who can do both in competition is the question.

Then again, I've seen off ice 3As from both Trusova and Shcherbakova so it could end up being one of them. Who knows?

 

[[email protected]]

I don't doubt Kihira will be throwing a quad in at some point next season too. That girl has cajones! She's been working on them and they look good.

Kihira's landed the axels, Lil Bet the quad...who can do both in competition is the question.

Then again, I've seen off ice 3As from both Trusova and Shcherbakova so it could end up being one of them. Who knows?

I just wanted to say that other things being equal she will be the first lady to do both 3A and quads. Will she be able, though? I don't know. But looking at her 2A stepout so far I am not convinced. Girls who can regularly land 3A (Liza, Rika) are not known to have stepouts on double axels.

There is another theory that quads and 3A require different skills. For ladies, both jumps are very risky and it may take a while before we see the groups of 3A and quad girls converge. And I hope that Sasha Trusova will be the first one to do that.

 

[kwanatic]

And I hope that Sasha Trusova will be the first one to do that.

If I were betting money I'd put most of it on her. That girl is absolutely fearless! All of these difficult jumps take a lot of focus and fearlessness but I feel like Sasha is the most fearless. To attempt not one but two or three quads in one program is insane! I've seen her have some truly awful looking falls too. I'm sure everyone has bad looking wipeouts from time to time but for her to have those kinds of falls and then get up and still hit 7 triples is truly amazing.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

If I were betting money I'd put most of it on her. That girl is absolutely fearless! All of these difficult jumps take a lot of focus and fearlessness but I feel like Sasha is the most fearless. To attempt not one but two or three quads in one program is insane! I've seen her have some truly awful looking falls too. I'm sure everyone has bad looking wipeouts from time to time but for her to have those kinds of falls and then get up and still hit 7 triples is truly amazing.

Agree. Quads will gradually become more popular, but Sasha is the brave pioneer, who proved it was possible.
(I’m not dismissing Ando’s quad; I am just talking about contemporary quads.)

 

[largeman]

I just wanted to say that other things being equal she will be the first lady to do both 3A and quads. Will she be able, though? I don't know. But looking at her 2A stepout so far I am not convinced. Girls who can regularly land 3A (Liza, Rika) are not known to have stepouts on double axels.

Even the best of them steps out on a 2A once in a while

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If I were betting money I'd put most of it on her. That girl is absolutely fearless! All of these difficult jumps take a lot of focus and fearlessness but I feel like Sasha is the most fearless. To attempt not one but two or three quads in one program is insane! I've seen her have some truly awful looking falls too. I'm sure everyone has bad looking wipeouts from time to time but for her to have those kinds of falls and then get up and still hit 7 triples is truly amazing.

To me that's the most impressive thing - to maintain focus. You could tell with Tursynbaeva that landing the quad gave her a bit of adrenaline and some of the jumps were a bit wild after. But with Trusova/Scherbackova whether they land or don't land the quad(s), they still hit the other jumps like they're nothing. So really it becomes a matter of whether they win or win by a lot (if the quads are landed).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Underrotated and prerotated are different notions though.

Either one of them is a fault of failing to rotate the jump properly. I would actually say pre-rotating a jump makes it even easier than underrotating (although for scoring purposes it should be the same deduction), because you go into the jump inherently knowing you don't need to rotate as much to land well. Whereas if you do a quad with a non-cheated takeoff, but purposefully try to land shorter (or just weren't able to get around fully when attempting the jump for real), it's going to be harder to land.

Additionally, when you pre-rotate a jump, it inherently allows you to swing your entire body into the rotation easier. Instead of actually jumping and THEN rotating.

In Trusova's case - sorry, but it's just blatant lie. Some of her quads are 60cm above ice - while some of Hanyu's are 50cm
https://pp.userapi.com/c850632/v850632008/ab2ae/J4vnbeijQ0I.jpg

Comparing her best effort to Hanyu's worst is not a real argument.

i feel like theres been more than enough evidence to show that sasha and anna have huge quads in terms of height, some as high or higher than the men. not sure why this is even an issue, anyone can see that they get good height even in real time.

Compare their quads to the Quad Lutz of Boyang or Kolyada, or the best examples of Quad Toes. It is not the same, their quads are significantly smaller. They are able to do these jumps because of cheating the entrance, plain and simple. If they did not cheat the entrance and tried to jump a quad, they would never land backwards and would fall more frequently.

 

[oatmella]

Is it necessary to compare ladies quad lutz to mens' though? These girls are a lot smaller than grown men ... and Kolyada was not able to control his quad lutz (inconsistent).

 

[Elucidus]

Either one of them is a fault of failing to rotate the jump properly. I would actually say pre-rotating a jump makes it even easier than underrotating (although for scoring purposes it should be the same deduction), because you go into the jump inherently knowing you don't need to rotate as much to land well. Whereas if you do a quad with a non-cheated takeoff, but purposefully try to land shorter (or just weren't able to get around fully when attempting the jump for real), it's going to be harder to land.

Additionally, when you pre-rotate a jump, it inherently allows you to swing your entire body into the rotation easier. Instead of actually jumping and THEN rotating.

Difficulty of elements is not an end in itself in figure skating. Main purpose of elements is to make the skating more beautiful - which not neccessarily means more difficult. Else more simple and empty american and japanese ladies programs wouldn't get so high scores as more "busy", packed with transitions and more difficult to skate programs of practically every russian lady (i.e. compare Ting Cui and Sinitsina programs at JWC, Samodurova and Brady programs at WC). The same can be said about 4Lo BV. While this quad jump is the most difficult of them - it's not the most expensive because Lutz is just better-looking. So as long as program and jumps looking great - nothing else matters. You may consider prerotated jump techniques as a way of optimization - instead of deragotary "cheating". In a sprint they were running without squatting for example - and running from squat position was considered as cheat at first too. Well, you can see what way of running won in the end )

Comparing her best effort to Hanyu's worst is not a real argument.

It's legit argument as long as you are using such

The size of their quads are far below those of top guys

rhetoric. While men's jumps are higher than women's on average - Trusova's 60cm quads have decent height even by men's standart.

Compare their quads to the Quad Lutz of Boyang or Kolyada, or the best examples of Quad Toes. It is not the same, their quads are significantly smaller. They are able to do these jumps because of cheating the entrance, plain and simple. If they did not cheat the entrance and tried to jump a quad, they would never land backwards and would fall more frequently.

Btw, I wonder how many people noticed already that success rate of proper 4Lz in a whole world for all fs time - is dangerously low? Which in turn begs for some contemplation - is it even justified to have almost impossible to land element as having almost as much BV as more stable jumps? Or is it even worthy to make it so difficult when in the end even prerotated 4Lz can look as much impressive for either casual viewers or judges - and at the same time can be landed more frequently (i.e. Samarin's 4Lz)? Just food for thought