Women and the Quad

[ec00834]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN-H64vit6M
OMG, it appears Liu's quads were rotated after all - while Valieva's are not. And Trusova have zero speed on exit from quads while Liu is smooth as silk. What an enlightment!

Pretty entertaining video, I cackled when they said Kamila's quad was UR. Sadly, there are actual people who believe everything in these videos.

 

[skatergurl7]

Are you for real? I think Anna feels her programs even more than Alena. She’s the only one who looks like she is enjoying it and she really wants to be out there on the ice. And Alina too, the times when she wasn’t having difficulties. As much as she is a lovely skater, I think there is a lot of hype built up around Alena and her artistry that people just assume. At least that’s my opinion. She doesn’t make me feel anything, but I hope that can change this year

Agree with you about Anna and Alina, you can feel that they truly love skating and performing (Alina not as much last year when she was stressed but this year’s test skates and Olympic skates were her best performances). Alena has more of a quiet confidence similar to yulia, less emotional

 

[ec00834]

Agree with you about Anna and Alina, you can feel that they truly love skating and performing (Alina not as much last year when she was stressed but this year’s test skates and Olympic skates were her best performances). Alena has more of a quiet confidence similar to yulia, less emotional

Wow you summed it up perfectly. That's exactly the difference I see between them and Rika.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Have you seen Alina at test skates? Especially her SP. She's not skating through anything, and she's clearly not just doing what she's told to do. And I can't believe anyone would ever think this of Anna. Watch her JGPF SP last year. She's the one that feels her music regardless of quads, any other jumps, even when she bombs the program. Like yes she has a quad and good tech, but that's nowhere close to the most impressive think about her. I actually disagree with Alena feeling her music. Skating skills is not the same as artistry.

Alina’s SP is a much better choreographed program and probably her best so far, with much greater finesse and attention to detail, but so far her FS still leaves a lot to be desired. The transitions looked forced and she doesn’t get into the character of the program save for the footwork. Even though the jumps are more spread out than her backloaded program for some reason her FS feels more mechanical (and Feeling Begins is a fave skating piece of mine too). The footwork is also a good example of where the Eteri choreography can get flailing arms.

Artistically I prefer Anna to Alexandra but Alena still trumps them by a long shot in my books.

Also IMO = in my opinion, for those who are apparently dismayed over the thoughts I’ve expressed.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So Rika's miles better because she doesn't "flail" her body? When have Eteri girls ever been given "flaily" choreography?

Basically the generalization you're making is that only one of Eteri's students feel their programs and all the others are robotic?

Here’s a perfect example of that, IMO. Look at the footwork sequence. Look at the arms throughout and the random spiral kicks throughout. There’s not much finesse, movements aren’t completed and look rushed. Technically it’s phenomenal and there’s lots of transitions but it looks like she’s going through the motions and it looks mechanical to me. If you muted it you couldn’t tell what type of music she is skating to because there’s not much character or flavour to the choreography, just movements strung together. I’m a big Trusova fan but it’s not for the program content but purely her amazing jumping ability. https://youtu.be/EixRrEswtRc

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Wow you summed it up perfectly. That's exactly the difference I see between them and Rika.

I’m not getting how Rika doesn’t convey her love of skating and loves to perform- just look at her NHK FS. https://youtu.be/OSid1Kpi5Sg

Compare that to the Trusova link I just posted and take out the big tricks from both skaters. It’s pretty evident to me that Kihira’s quality of skating and choreography is superior as is her presentation and projection. She completes her movements and there is an ease to her skating, rather than the focus being primarily the big tricks.

 

[flanker]

You’re allowed to have your opinion. But to trivialize Rika as “a girl being told what to do” when extolling skaters like Alina and several of the Russian juniors skate who are clearly performing programs that have been specifically and carefully choreographed for them to skate through is rather double standards. Kostornaia is the only one currently that IMO looks like she’s actually feeling her programs and not just reeling off choreography (to the point that I actually forget she’s a student of Eteri’s sometimes).

I will say Rika’s programs aren’t as captivating as last season but I don’t feel like she’s just going through the motions either. She certainly has more finesse and nuance in her skating than some of the flailier Russian girls.

Trusova deserves to win if she goes clean but it won’t be because she’s the best overall skater or has amazing artistry. Which is fine by me since it’s a sport and she’s miles above the others technically. But again just my opinion, and you’re entitled to what you believe. You do you, boo!

Is there a problem in having specifically and carefully choreographed programs?

This says it the best:

Have you seen Alina at test skates? Especially her SP. She's not skating through anything, and she's clearly not just doing what she's told to do. And I can't believe anyone would ever think this of Anna. Watch her JGPF SP last year. She's the one that feels her music regardless of quads, any other jumps, even when she bombs the program. Like yes she has a quad and good tech, but that's nowhere close to the most impressive think about her. I actually disagree with Alena feeling her music. Skating skills is not the same as artistry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJMu7CXrM4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnAV1Y4GQuw

Those programs are not just skating through. That's the highest standard not just from technical perspective but from the perspective of performance and expression as well. Someone can object that Alina is older,s easoned etc., but though she is sometimes taken that way, people tend to forget that she is just two months older than Rika, yet her maturity goes far beyond her years. she doesn't need slow sweet programs to sell them properly. Esp. her new SP is rather hard for interpretation and I doubt many much older skaters could interpret it so well.

And we can talk the same not just about Alina, but others as well, not just Aliona, who is allowed to be forgiven that she is an Eteri student That's what I'm saying.

P. S. I just love this. People tend to enrich their opinions with some phrases like "who would deny", "as we all know", "former Russian skaters were commenting" etc., trying to point that there is a legion of those who think the same, therefore that statement has somehow more validity (="so many people just can't be wrong, can they?" ). While others are mercifully allowed "to have their opinion" (="you are alone, dissident, separatist" ).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Is there a problem in having specifically and carefully choreographed programs? .

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! These are athletes first and foremost and they are young people so they have coaches and choreographers to maximize their chances of competitive success, and we wouldn’t expect them to be autonomous. But it’s a double standard that you find nothing wrong with specifically and carefully choreographed programs for Eteri’s quadsters/girls, and meanwhile you criticize Kihira, saying: “To me, Rika is the type of a skater who just does what is she told to do.”

We are aware of the general intensity of Eteri’s methods and her high standards....You think Eteri’s girls aren’t being “told to do” quads or chock their programs full of transitions or emote a certain way in order to be more competitive? Again, nothing wrong with that but be fair if you’re going to use that phrasing as a strike against Kihira.

 

[moriel]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! These are athletes first and foremost and they are young people so they have coaches and choreographers to maximize their chances of competitive success, and we wouldn’t expect them to be autonomous. But it’s a double standard that you find nothing wrong with specifically and carefully choreographed programs for Eteri’s quadsters/girls, and meanwhile you criticize Kihira, saying: “To me, Rika is the type of a skater who just does what is she told to do.”

We are aware of the general intensity of Eteri’s methods and her high standards....You think Eteri’s girls aren’t being “told to do” quads or chock their programs full of transitions or emote a certain way in order to be more competitive? Again, nothing wrong with that but be fair if you’re going to use that phrasing as a strike against Kihira.

While not going into details of this specific comparison, i disagree about double standards.

For example, suppose that you have 2 young skaters who are "told to". Skater A, after being told, receives tons of training, skaters team puts a major effort into explaining the program to the skater, to work on the gestures and to make it natural, to make it not look like the skater is doing what he/she was told to do. Skater B just gets the coaching to skate the program well, and look like a kid trying to do their best.

There is a difference, and yeah, pointing out such difference wouldn't be really double standard.

 

[flanker]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! These are athletes first and foremost and they are young people so they have coaches and choreographers to maximize their chances of competitive success, and we wouldn’t expect them to be autonomous. But it’s a double standard that you find nothing wrong with specifically and carefully choreographed programs for Eteri’s quadsters/girls, and meanwhile you criticize Kihira, saying: “To me, Rika is the type of a skater who just does what is she told to do.”

We are aware of the general intensity of Eteri’s methods and her high standards....You think Eteri’s girls aren’t being “told to do” quads or chock their programs full of transitions or emote a certain way in order to be more competitive? Again, nothing wrong with that but be fair if you’re going to use that phrasing as a strike against Kihira.

I think we don't understand each other, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I mean that the way moriel explained it, with the following addition. I don't know if you noticed that or remember that. Before or at the beginning of the previous season Alina did an interview, where apart from other things she spoke about her POTO program and how she had problems to get into it. She had to really understood it so she spent quite a long time with her coaches when they were explaining the program to her and helped her to understand it, to get into the emotions wtc. and only after completely being into it she was able to skate it properly (recently she gave the big credit for helping with getting into the characters to Daniil's mother, BTW). This is what makes the difference for me. It's not just move there, do those transitions, jump in the corner, than aim to the centre of the ice etc. From this and other similar notices I am quiite strongly convinced that Eteri's team pays much attention to the innern contend of the program, to explain the skaters not only the particular elements but the deeper emotional content as well in order the skaters would not be just puppets but true characters. Of course sometimes it gets better and sometimes worse (depends on skater, program itself etc.) , but generally it is there and it takes an effort to get it there.

And of course that sometimes I read from some people that they can't understand this or that in programs, are not connected with this or that, but I've pointed that several times already. The way we Slavs express our emotions is in many times slightly (or more than slightly) different from how people from e. g. North America do it. Not that one is better than the other because there is hardly any system that could measure it, but that's one of the things why e.g. I generally like russian (and european) programs better (one practical example is Medvedeva's original SP last season OCS vs. later Tosca, which I liked much much more, because it was simply closer to me and I dare to say it was much closer to her).

So, I hope this helped.

 

[VenusHalley]

See, I was always cringing through POTO, those awful cuts and it seemed to me Alina, along the rest of the world aside of Daniil and Eteri (and maybe flanker ) did not really understand the program. She was just moving through the program, there were parts that would make cute gif... but I never felt she ever connected to it. Same with Carmen, she never was Carmen to me, just a girl in pretty dress more or less sucessfully skating to Carmen music that was playing (but with all those transitions crammed in there... it was impossible to be Carmen. It was slightly better in the shows, aside of the tacky-as-hell chair bit at the beginning).

Rika's Beautiful Storm is one of the my favorite skates ever. She was a storm, she rode the storm, she skated to the storm.

They are both talented, but Rika's long was just better, imho. (did not really like her short too much).

 

[VenusHalley]

And I doubt it is just Slavic thing. I am Slavic, but I prefer more western things, in art and culture, as opposed to Russian pathos. All my Slavicness never made me appreciate Evgenia's O face in her Eteri routines (as much as she was good otherwise, but the moments she opened her mouth to express that 9-11 is horrible, Sailor Moon is quirky and Anna Karenina was tragic........ it somewhat spoiled things to me). It feels Alina was trying to do some miming in POTO, but mostly it looked nervous and sick and worried. Add frenetic movements in the name of transitions to the mix.... it was technically good, maybe, lot of the time... but there are lots of people who consider her 2018/19 programs unenjoyable.

 

[flanker]

See, I was always cringing through POTO, those awful cuts and it seemed to me Alina, along the rest of the world aside of Daniil and Eteri (and maybe flanker ) did not really understand the program.

See, that's what I'm not doing, dub my taste as "the rest of the world" (you should know this: "kolik třešní, tolik višní"... )

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think we don't understand each other, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I mean that the way moriel explained it, with the following addition. I don't know if you noticed that or remember that. Before or at the beginning of the previous season Alina did an interview, where apart from other things she spoke about her POTO program and how she had problems to get into it. She had to really understood it so she spent quite a long time with her coaches when they were explaining the program to her and helped her to understand it, to get into the emotions wtc. and only after completely being into it she was able to skate it properly (recently she gave the big credit for helping with getting into the characters to Daniil's mother, BTW). This is what makes the difference for me. It's not just move there, do those transitions, jump in the corner, than aim to the centre of the ice etc. From this and other similar notices I am quiite strongly convinced that Eteri's team pays much attention to the innern contend of the program, to explain the skaters not only the particular elements but the deeper emotional content as well in order the skaters would not be just puppets but true characters. Of course sometimes it gets better and sometimes worse (depends on skater, program itself etc.) , but generally it is there and it takes an effort to get it there.

And of course that sometimes I read from some people that they can't understand this or that in programs, are not connected with this or that, but I've pointed that several times already. The way we Slavs express our emotions is in many times slightly (or more than slightly) different from how people from e. g. North America do it. Not that one is better than the other because there is hardly any system that could measure it, but that's one of the things why e.g. I generally like russian (and european) programs better (one practical example is Medvedeva's original SP last season OCS vs. later Tosca, which I liked much much more, because it was simply closer to me and I dare to say it was much closer to her).

So, I hope this helped.

Thanks for your clarification. But I still don't understand why you label Kihira as simply as skater being told what to do? Have you looked into her efforts to understand her programs from a deeper level of meaning as you've explained Alina did for her POTO? From watching Kihira's skating, I can tell that there is a mix of natural ability, good choreography that maximizes Kihira's artistry and isn't simply trying to chock the program full of content. Sometimes I'll watch Zagitova or other Eteri girls skate and the movements are incomplete or seem to be just thrown in there. There isn't a ton of nuance or refinement. I particularly look at a skater's arm movements to see how fluid/finessed they are and if it's consistently presented throughout the program, even when executing technical elements (e.g. skaters like Kostornaia and Kihira have lovely fluid arm/hand movements; skaters like Trusova and Sakamoto have stiffer arm/body movements by comparison; Zagitova is somewhere in between - especially her carriage/posture still needs improvement).

The SP is a nice statement though for Zagitova this year - it shows that she can be more expressive as long as the choreography allows for it. She's Olympic champion so really she could have zero transitions and probably still get high PCS, so I hope she edits down her programs to allow movements to be completed and the choreography to "breathe". She's still one of my fave skaters in the current field, but I think she's got a ways before we can see her true artistic potential. Interesting to hear about POTO though and how it was a struggle because it certainly looked that way (and even things like the styling I didn't like). This year she looks to be way more comfortable out there. I would love to see the quality in her SP brought to her FS.

 

[Reddi]

Rika's Beautiful Storm is one of the my favorite skates ever. She was a storm, she rode the storm, she skated to the storm.

See, you weren't seeing a Carmen in Alina and I was deeply amused by the ultimate miscasting of a diligent pupil Rika Kihira as a force of nature.

 

[readernick]

While not going into details of this specific comparison, i disagree about double standards.

For example, suppose that you have 2 young skaters who are "told to". Skater A, after being told, receives tons of training, skaters team puts a major effort into explaining the program to the skater, to work on the gestures and to make it natural, to make it not look like the skater is doing what he/she was told to do. Skater B just gets the coaching to skate the program well, and look like a kid trying to do their best.

There is a difference, and yeah, pointing out such difference wouldn't be really double standard.

I understand what you are saying but I would reverse the characterization. I found Alina's programs last year to too mature for her, She looked like she was struggling in ever movement. She looked like a kid being told to skate to adult choreography and I don't think she understood what she was suppose be portraying. The story was so disjointed. It was all just a bit sloppy. The short this year is so much better. The first time I have actually really liked one of her programs. She actually looks happy skating to that music.

Rika on the other hand looked totally natural in all her programs last year. The SP was simple but beautiful. (nothing special but she executed it well) but in the long she became a storm and each movement had meaning which matched the music perfectly. There was refinement in every movement. The transitions were difficult but looked easy. Which is the point of figure skating to make something difficult look easy. She understood what she was portaying not just superfically but deeply.

This is the difference I see between skaters like Satoko, Aliona , Rika and my new favorite Ksenia and some others. They have intention in their choreography and movement. They aren't just moving for movements sake or for transistion points they are moving with the goal of expressing one thought or emotion. Plus, each movement is done well not rushed through in a sloppy manner. The posture good, the edges are good. The arms are controlled.

About the Slavs showing emotion differently, that could be true. But, I never had difficulty understanding or appreciating the programs or choreography of various Russian pair skaters throughout time or traditionally single skaters. It is only some of ( not all) the Daniil choreo that I see no intention or purpose in. ( I understood Averbukh's choreo for Med.. although I often didn't like the miming/ subject matter... the same could be said for a lot of European, NA, Japanese choreo). I personally have no difficulty understanding what my Slav friends are feeling or thinking in real life. I find them very open people.

But in end you can like what you like. Enjoy.

 

[voolfee]

I see people here like to discuss not quads, but Alina and how bad she is. Wow, people seriously say that Alina is bad at artistry. In my opinion, Alina is the best actress among all current ladies, she lives her programs very deeply. Last season Alina experienced a lot of problems with growth, injuries, pressure and stress due to the negative around her name in russian media, so she didn't always succeed in showing it. But how good Alina was in her Olympic programs and in recent test skates. I would like to observe even greater development of Alina’s acting talent on ice in the coming years.

 

[colormyworld240]

Alina’s SP is a much better choreographed program and probably her best so far, with much greater finesse and attention to detail, but so far her FS still leaves a lot to be desired. The transitions looked forced and she doesn’t get into the character of the program save for the footwork. Even though the jumps are more spread out than her backloaded program for some reason her FS feels more mechanical (and Feeling Begins is a fave skating piece of mine too). The footwork is also a good example of where the Eteri choreography can get flailing arms.

Artistically I prefer Anna to Alexandra but Alena still trumps them by a long shot in my books.

Also IMO = in my opinion, for those who are apparently dismayed over the thoughts I’ve expressed.

Obviously you're free to express your opinion, but others are free to disagree. Especially since that opinion was you disagreeing with anothers'. I'm always puzzled when people say when someone is way ahead of Anna in artistry, or that she's just doing Eteri's choreo. This is the performance I want to draw attention to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOU-gAZUqgM

Butchered tech with a fall and no combo, messed up spins, etc. But her connection to the music and her performance was sublime. She was on every note of the music, except for the falls themselves, and even after the falls she changes her choreography to hit the next beat of music (which is different than doing the choreography given if you compare it with her clean performances). And she never loses the performance to her mistakes, unlike all the other top skaters we've seen. This is something that Ted has commented on many times. That's artistry, imo. Anna doesn't have the best skating skills, but like I said skating skills is technique and not artistry. Sometimes I wish Anna didn't have a quad because so many think quadsters are jumping beans. I think if Anna couldn't jump well, many more would appreciate her artistry. You could watch her older performances as well, before she had any quads and even when her triples were more unstable, she was always incredibly musical.

As for Alina's FS, I don't think it's as good as her short either. But I'd like to ask one thing: you said she gets into her character in the footwork, but you're also saying it's flailing. So unless Cleopatra is flailing, I don't see how both those things can happen at the same time?

 

[ec00834]

Obviously you're free to express your opinion, but others are free to disagree. Especially since that opinion was you disagreeing with anothers'. I'm always puzzled when people say when someone is way ahead of Anna in artistry, or that she's just doing Eteri's choreo. This is the performance I want to draw attention to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOU-gAZUqgM

Butchered tech with a fall and no combo, messed up spins, etc. But her connection to the music and her performance was sublime. She was on every note of the music, except for the falls themselves, and even after the falls she changes her choreography to hit the next beat of music (which is different than doing the choreography given if you compare it with her clean performances). And she never loses the performance to her mistakes, unlike all the other top skaters we've seen. This is something that Ted has commented on many times. That's artistry, imo. Anna doesn't have the best skating skills, but like I said skating skills is technique and not artistry. Sometimes I wish Anna didn't have a quad because so many think quadsters are jumping beans. I think if Anna couldn't jump well, many more would appreciate her artistry. You could watch her older performances as well, before she had any quads and even when her triples were more unstable, she was always incredibly musical.

As for Alina's FS, I don't think it's as good as her short either. But I'd like to ask one thing: you said she gets into her character in the footwork, but you're also saying it's flailing. So unless Cleopatra is flailing, I don't see how both those things can happen at the same time?

YES! "Imo" doesn't make you immune, there are always going to be people who don't agree with your point of view.

It's not just Anna's facial expressions, she moves her whole body with the music, she's able to feel it, staying in character the whole time. That's what sets her apart from Rika who skates with a blank face except for an occasional smile.

 

[colormyworld240]

Thanks for your clarification. But I still don't understand why you label Kihira as simply as skater being told what to do? Have you looked into her efforts to understand her programs from a deeper level of meaning as you've explained Alina did for her POTO? From watching Kihira's skating, I can tell that there is a mix of natural ability, good choreography that maximizes Kihira's artistry and isn't simply trying to chock the program full of content. Sometimes I'll watch Zagitova or other Eteri girls skate and the movements are incomplete or seem to be just thrown in there. There isn't a ton of nuance or refinement. I particularly look at a skater's arm movements to see how fluid/finessed they are and if it's consistently presented throughout the program, even when executing technical elements (e.g. skaters like Kostornaia and Kihira have lovely fluid arm/hand movements; skaters like Trusova and Sakamoto have stiffer arm/body movements by comparison; Zagitova is somewhere in between - especially her carriage/posture still needs improvement).

The SP is a nice statement though for Zagitova this year - it shows that she can be more expressive as long as the choreography allows for it. She's Olympic champion so really she could have zero transitions and probably still get high PCS, so I hope she edits down her programs to allow movements to be completed and the choreography to "breathe". She's still one of my fave skaters in the current field, but I think she's got a ways before we can see her true artistic potential. Interesting to hear about POTO though and how it was a struggle because it certainly looked that way (and even things like the styling I didn't like). This year she looks to be way more comfortable out there. I would love to see the quality in her SP brought to her FS.

Alena and Rika fo have more fluid arm movements. However, artistically, I disagree that arms have to be fluid all the time. I agree they should be for lyrical programs, so like Alena's past programs and Rika's Storm, they fit and they were indeed beautiful. These are styles that work for them. However, many different styles and characters call for sharp, angular movements. What about modern dance inspired programs, or pop music? OR energetic, jazzy pieces? For example, Rika's SP this season; her arms are still fluid and she still has beautiful skating skills and elegant movements, but it doesn't have the impact of her Storm program as it's a different style. I particularly disagree with the assessment of Sakamoto; she's not lyrical, but I find her quite artistic particularly when she performs a more powerful or quirky program. Same with Sasha - I don't like many of her programs, but see her Sia ex. It was neither fluid nor elegant, but that's not the artistic direction. It was modern and edgy. Also see Alina's survivor.