Women's programs outside of the box

[Zora]

I really loved Carolina Kostner's 2011/2012 and 2017 short programs. Also Yuna Kim's Kiss of the Vampire program was unique, and so was Rika Hongo's Incantation.

But I also want to mention Alena Leonova, who played many roles and always had creative programs. She was a Pirate of the Caribbean, she also played Charlie Chaplin and was a Witch of Eastwick.

 

[Weathergal]

I really loved Carolina Kostner's 2011/2012 and 2017 short programs. Also Yuna Kim's Kiss of the Vampire program was unique, and so was Rika Hongo's Incantation.

But I also want to mention Alena Leonova, who played many roles and always had creative programs. She was a Pirate of the Caribbean, she also played Charlie Chaplin and was a Witch of Eastwick.

I'm glad you mentioned Carolina Kostner's 2017 SP. I was going to mention that one as well. I couldn't get the link to work so I hope it's OK that I added another one here (I just love that program!).

Carolina Kostner SP WC 2017

www.youtube.com

 

[4everchan]

Did anyone mention Katia Kurakova ? She is definitely atypical.

 

[Lamente Ariane]

Yuhana Yokoi! Never forget the Tom and Jerry program or 10 Dark Women

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I also have immense fondness for Yuna Shiraiwa’s “Nightmare/All Aboard” program.

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More recently, I remember liking Mana Kawabe’s Billie Eilish short and I absolutely LOVED Kaori’s Janet Jackson SP. I’m forever upset that Haein Lee has ditched her Sirens SP this year, that was such a cool idea with so much potential. Oh, and Amber Glenn’s SP this season is fun and powerful too.

 

[Weathergal]

Yuhana Yokoi! Never forget the Tom and Jerry program or 10 Dark Women

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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I also have immense fondness for Yuna Shiraiwa’s “Nightmare/All Aboard” program.

- YouTube

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More recently, I remember liking Mana Kawabe’s Billie Eilish short and I absolutely LOVED Kaori’s Janet Jackson SP. I’m forever upset that Haein Lee has ditched her Sirens SP this year, that was such a cool idea with so much potential. Oh, and Amber Glenn’s SP this season is fun and powerful too.

That program of Yuna Shiraiwa's is one of my favorites, too! It's a little off the beaten path (or maybe there's no such thing in figure skating LOL) so I was so surprised and glad someone mentioned it.

I also really liked Kaori's Janet Jackson program and Amber,'s current SP.

 

[icewhite]

There are now quite a few programs mentioned which I definitely wouldn't consider "out of the box", but fitting the female stereotype very much.

 

[dorispulaski]

@icewhite One person's box is another's open horizon. Which programs, of those mentioned, do feel are outside the box?

It would help to know to what we are looking for, because this thread isn't about programs we enjoyed, or programs about skaters we always liked.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Really, Katia Kurakova outside the box? Imo she has the most quintessential cutesy girly programs ever.

I think the OP has outlined what they are (not) looking for very elaborately in this post.

 

[Anna K.]

@icewhite One person's box is another's open horizon. Which programs, of those mentioned, do feel are outside the box?

It would help to know to what we are looking for, because this thread isn't about programs we enjoyed, or programs about skaters we always liked.

Thus far, it has led to an interesting discussion about what is "box" or "out of the box" in female skating today.

I understand that there are trends and aesthetic standards that start to feel like a standard "box" at a certain point.
Yu Na Kim's programs Dance Macabre and Black Giselle were innovative when she premiered them. However, she started a trend and I'd even say that today Dance Macabre is pretty much a warhorse program for girls.

 

[4everchan]

Really, Katia Kurakova outside the box? Imo she has the most quintessential cutesy girly programs ever.

I think the OP has outlined what they are (not) looking for very elaborately in this post.

Yeah. I mentioned Katia. Why ? Because the OP mentions outside the box and to me, the box is more "ice princess" and not quintessial cutesy girly. Katia is definitely NOT doing what everyone else is doing.

Now if the OP really wants something else, then that's fine To me Katia is definitely not like any other senior skater. To me, that's challenging the standard image as the OP mentioned.

 

[4everchan]

Thus far, it has led to an interesting discussion about what is "box" or "out of the box" in female skating today.

I understand that there are trends and aesthetic standards that start to feel like a standard "box" at a certain point.
Yu Na Kim's programs Dance Macabre and Black Giselle were innovative when she premiered them. However, she started a trend and I'd even say that today Dance Macabre is pretty much a warhorse program for girls.

and some programs the OP mentioned themselves aren't necessarily what I personally would consider outside the box so this thread is just confusing for me...

For instance, Ivett's fan favourite ACDC. Typical moves. Ordinary rock music ( I have seen such programs in shows quite often).
The steps aren't that particular, and it finishes with a Bielmann spin. Women who do rock are quite popular/common already...

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that people are mixing up two very similar phrases which mean the exact opposite of each other.

"Outside the box" means something that is different / unusual.

"Out of the box" means something that is standard.

It's easy done.

Don't you just love the English language!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

^^ not my case
I am apparently mixing up "untypical ice princess" programs with atypical ways of skating as a woman

because, let's be honest here, even if one wears tights and a robin hood hat, or a black leather jacket, spirals, ina bauers and layback spins are trademarks of women's skating... it is really hard to do anything else when the sport is based on such moves.

All of it ends up looking pretty much the same.

i thought Katia's Charlie Chaplin wasn't trying to sell sex or be typical ice princess... but apparently, i am very wrong

 

[Anna K.]

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that people are mixing up two very similar phrases which mean the exact opposite of each other.

"Outside the box" means something that is different / unusual.

"Out of the box" means something that is standard.

It's easy done.

Don't you just love the English language!

CaroLiza_fan

I thought it was logical.
We cannot define what is unusual without defining what is standard and vice versa.
So, give us any of these idioms and we will still discuss both of them

Although thank you for reminding about the beauty of English language

 

[icewhite]

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that people are mixing up two very similar phrases which mean the exact opposite of each other.

"Outside the box" means something that is different / unusual.

"Out of the box" means something that is standard.

It's easy done.

Don't you just love the English language!

CaroLiza_fan

Thank you, indeed I have mixed up the terms a bit I think. I hope I did at least get the title right, can you say it like that in English?

^^ not my case
I am apparently mixing up "untypical ice princess" programs with atypical ways of skating as a woman

because, let's be honest here, even if one wears tights and a robin hood hat, or a black leather jacket, spirals, ina bauers and layback spins are trademarks of women's skating... it is really hard to do anything else when the sport is based on such moves.

All of it ends up looking pretty much the same.

i thought Katia's Charlie Chaplin wasn't trying to sell sex or be typical ice princess... but apparently, i am very wrong

But why do there have to be spirals and layback spins in women's, when in men's it's not an expectation?
Why should there be different expectations and trademarks of women's and men's?

Kurakova's programs are indeed not the most common ones - but for me she stays inside this box which in my mind is full of images of what a woman is or should be.

---

My intention was really rather to create a kind of list instead of discussing what out of the box for women's could mean. But it seems it's not as clear what I had in mind as I thought.
On that box that I see there's a sign "typically female". The box is fully of stereotypical ideas of what a woman looks like, behaves and should be like and what they aspire to be. In part this is includes expectations of figure skating in general: elegance.

Stepping out can look differently. It can happen by the choice of music - but doesn't have to be - the choice of costume - but doesn't have to be - the choice of choreo.
A lot of programs make the girls look pretty objectified. Which is difficult to pin, because every skater strives to be appreciated by others, that's basically the job description. Still, I see a difference in the way men and women often move on the ice, the way they take control or don't.
I am looking for programs where the women are stepping out on the ice and showing they are there to "slay".
Different levels in abilities can make these efforts look more or less effective.

There are very few female programs that cross the borders in several ways. Usually they do it in one way and in regards to other aspects they stay within the usual frame.

In theory nothing keeps the girls from doing a rock or hip hop program in pants and black t-shirt, with aerials, cantilever and lunge instead of spirals and Inas and with hand movements that look more like Aymoz than Yuna Kim.

I really appreciate everything that Richaud has done for women's skating, he has made a lot of great programs.
I also loved the mentioning of Yametova's programs which I didn't know, especially Royal Blood.
But a program like Breakfast in Baghdad also doesn't focus on the feminity of the skater, neither in the choice of music nor in the movements, so for me that would also be an example for an outside of the box program.

Kaori's Janet Jackson is sexy, but it looks modern, fresh and powerful, so I love it - like Hana's KooKooFun I would probably not name it as a real example for outside of the box, but I appreciate these two very much and don't think they are very standard either.

 

[Jeanie19]

Evgenia Medvedeva - Rus Nats 2022 - Alegria / ÐÐ²Ð³ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ðедведева - Ð§ÐµÐ¼Ð¿Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð Ð¾ÑÑии 2022 - 26.12.2021

ÐÐ²Ð³ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ðедведева, показаÑелÑнÑе вÑÑÑÑплениÑ, ÐлегÑиÑ, ÑÐµÐ¼Ð¿Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð Ð¾ÑÑии 2022, 25 декабÑÑ 2021, СанкÑ-ÐеÑеÑбÑÑг. #EvgeniaMedvedeva #ÐвгениÑÐедведева

youtu.be

Evgenia's Alegria, choreographed by Shae-Lynne. Because of her back injury, it was never used in competition. I think it is outside of the box.

 

[gkelly]

But why do there have to be spirals and layback spins in women's, when in men's it's not an expectation?
Why should there be different expectations and trademarks of women's and men's?

I think the expectation is a combination of flexibility moves coming more easily to female bodies, on average, and also cultural expectations about femininity in society at large that also carried over into figure skating.

For both reasons, spirals and laybacks became required moves for women's short programs and optional for both genders in free skates (with a few exceptions across the years).

Only in about the last 10 years have the rules changed to allow women to meet all their program requirements without including either spirals or laybacks. To have the same options as men to include them or not include them, as they prefer.

If you go back and look at women's programs from previous decades, in most cases they all include those elements because they were required. And if not required in the free skate at the time, women who were training those elements anyway to meet SP requirements might feel they might as well use them in free skates also.

Now that rules have changed, most women who include them now do so because they like them. Maybe because they feel good in their bodies, at least compared to alternative moves they could be doing,* or because they like the images of traditional femininity those moves convey.

*For Biellmann and other extreme positions, under IJS maybe it's more a matter of "worth the discomfort for the points" than "comfortable" per se.

Speaking for myself as an earlier-middle-aged adult woman, before I lost my average flexibility, I liked the way they felt.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Freedom

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Unfortunately she skated it only once in competition.

 

[4everchan]

But why do there have to be spirals and layback spins in women's, when in men's it's not an expectation?
Why should there be different expectations and trademarks of women's and men's?

it's not mandatory... but the women choose to do it it used to be mandatory.... the sport is anchored in very old tradition. Be thankful the women are now allowed to jump

Kurakova's programs are indeed not the most common ones - but for me she stays inside this box which in my mind is full of images of what a woman is or should be.

fair enough

---

My intention was really rather to create a kind of list instead of discussing what out of the box for women's could mean. But it seems it's not as clear what I had in mind as I thought.

because it can be subjective.... i understood what you were after but then some of your choices confused me and thus, i went for atypical not necessarily, "less feminine"

On that box that I see there's a sign "typically female". The box is fully of stereotypical ideas of what a woman looks like, behaves and should be like and what they aspire to be. In part this is includes expectations of figure skating in general: elegance.

got it... but the sport is very traditional and there are even points for elegance

Stepping out can look differently. It can happen by the choice of music - but doesn't have to be - the choice of costume - but doesn't have to be - the choice of choreo.

sure but that's where there is confusion... because some of the programs listed only would have one of the 3 features... for instance (and IMHO)
Bonaly 4 season
Music= typical
Costume = she was wearing couture maybe out of the box but very very feminine
Skating/Choreo = I would give it a checkmark here for atypical.

Tott ACDC
Music = arguable but fine, I could I give it a checkmark
Costume = same as above... it's not that special nowadays and certainly not when she did it... maybe 30 years ago...
Skating/Choreo = completely traditional...

So where is it so out of the box ? Because she's cool and we like her ?

A lot of programs make the girls look pretty objectified.

there are more than one ways to do so... and I could give you examples from the two skaters above where this is the case too.

Which is difficult to pin, because every skater strives to be appreciated by others, that's basically the job description. Still, I see a difference in the way men and women often move on the ice, the way they take control or don't.
I am looking for programs where the women are stepping out on the ice and showing they are there to "slay".

Okay.. but then, Loena is there to slay and her programs this year are definitely not what I think you are looking for

Different levels in abilities can make these efforts look more or less effective.

There are very few female programs that cross the borders in several ways. Usually they do it in one way and in regards to other aspects they stay within the usual frame.

In theory nothing keeps the girls from doing a rock or hip hop program in pants and black t-shirt, with aerials, cantilever and lunge instead of spirals and Inas and with hand movements that look more like Aymoz than Yuna Kim.

I really appreciate everything that Richaud has done for women's skating, he has made a lot of great programs.

See, I don't like Richaud at all haha

I also loved the mentioning of Yametova's programs which I didn't know, especially Royal Blood.
But a program like Breakfast in Baghdad also doesn't focus on the feminity of the skater, neither in the choice of music nor in the movements, so for me that would also be an example for an outside of the box program.

Kaori's Janet Jackson is sexy, but it looks modern, fresh and powerful, so I love it -

interesting about Kaori's Janet Jackson because JJ is definitely selling a certain genre of sensuality that is far from what I would think would fit your criteria

like Hana's KooKooFun I would probably not name it as a real example for outside of the box, but I appreciate these two very much and don't think they are very standard either.

interesting...



I took the time to respond to this line by line... because it just shows how you can make your own list and all of this works for you but how at the same time, there are just too many variables/ too broad of a focus, to really come up with something that may make consensus.

I think your thread is interesting in this sense :

The sport is heavily anchored in tradition... why don't more women step out of the box?

In the end, I'd say, look at some of the French skaters... I tend to believe that some of them are less into playing the stereotypes... not all of them, and not always... but some... at times.

 

[icewhite]

it's not mandatory... but the women choose to do it it used to be mandatory.... the sport is anchored in very old tradition. Be thankful the women are now allowed to jump

fair enough

because it can be subjective.... i understood what you were after but then some of your choices confused me and thus, i went for atypical not necessarily, "less feminine"

got it... but the sport is very traditional and there are even points for elegance

sure but that's where there is confusion... because some of the programs listed only would have one of the 3 features... for instance (and IMHO)
Bonaly 4 season
Music= typical
Costume = she was wearing couture maybe out of the box but very very feminine
Skating/Choreo = I would give it a checkmark here for atypical.

Tott ACDC
Music = arguable but fine, I could I give it a checkmark
Costume = same as above... it's not that special nowadays and certainly not when she did it... maybe 30 years ago...
Skating/Choreo = completely traditional...

So where is it so out of the box ? Because she's cool and we like her ?

there are more than one ways to do so... and I could give you examples from the two skaters above where this is the case too.

Okay.. but then, Loena is there to slay and her programs this year are definitely not what I think you are looking for

See, I don't like Richaud at all haha

interesting about Kaori's Janet Jackson because JJ is definitely selling a certain genre of sensuality that is far from what I would think would fit your criteria

interesting...



I took the time to respond to this line by line... because it just shows how you can make your own list and all of this works for you but how at the same time, there are just too many variables/ too broad of a focus, to really come up with something that may make consensus.

I think your thread is interesting in this sense :

The sport is heavily anchored in tradition... why don't more women step out of the box?

In the end, I'd say, look at some of the French skaters... I tend to believe that some of them are less into playing the stereotypes... not all of them, and not always... but some... at times.

Yes, I love the French in figure skating in general.

I guess I could make my points clearer when I would have a video show and would point at the movements. I think a lot is in the movements of the hands, the tilting of the head... like, of course Janet Jackson per se is not what I'm looking for, but the way this program is done, the choreo combined with Kaori's way of moving is different - but like I said, for me that's a bit of an in-between program. About Bonaly I agree with your checklist - that's why I said often they are just different in one aspect.