Yuzuru Hanyu: 2014-15 Season

[gsyzf]

Thank you. I like your answer.

Could be any number of things...

They may think that repeating it often enough will make it true.

They may not understand the scoring system.

They may not know enough about skating to see where points are being earned.

Or they may love certain skaters, and simply hate all others. Their favourite always deserves to win, and is undermarked if they don't - and any skater who scores more, must be "overmarked".

Occasionally though, they may actually be right...! There is a subjective element to judging, so there will rarely be 100% agreement, and apart from that - even with the best will in the world, they are human and will not always get it right. There have also been scandals in skating history, where judges have cheated. (I mean actual proven cases, not Sochi-style conspiracy theories).

In Hanyu's case, I'd say he generally deserves his points. Occasionally, there is a reason to think that judges have been "generous", but I'd say that's rare and I don't think he is regularly overmarked.

 

[Eloyse]

Yeah I saw that, too...
I think the problem is that scoring in general has inflated during these years, just like the inflation in currency, you cannot really control it....Compared to Lambiel and Buttle, yuzuru may appear to be a little over marked, IMO. However, this comparison is meaningless because they are not competing in the same era! If yuzuru's PCS should be lowered, then so is everyone's PCS ('everyone' refers to everyone in the current field). Some skaters have been given much larger PCS inflation than Yuzuru, which is very unfair, but just because they cannot win even with PCS protection, people don't pay attention to them:disapp:
Ps. IMO, stricter PCS is a good thing. Nowadays the judges hand out too many 8, 9 to mediocre performances.

 

[gsyzf]

I think maybe the problem is that PCS has no official base value. I think with TES, it has official base values, so even though the GOEs may get inflated, but as long as the base values stay the same, the TES inflation gets capped (is minimal). But if PCS has no base value, then it’s up to the judges to decide on the score, and that can be inflated due to reputation and experience. Perhaps, they should find a way to give an official base value for PCS, at least an official base value for the transitions.

Yeah I saw that, too...
I think the problem is that scoring in general has inflated during these years, just like the inflation in currency, you cannot really control it....Compared to Lambiel and Buttle, yuzuru may appear to be a little over marked, IMO. However, this comparison is meaningless because they are not competing in the same era! If yuzuru's PCS should be lowered, then so is everyone's PCS ('everyone' refers to everyone in the current field). Some skaters have been given much larger PCS inflation than Yuzuru, which is very unfair, but just because they cannot win even with PCS protection, people don't pay attention to them:disapp:
Ps. IMO, stricter PCS is a good thing. Nowadays the judges hand out too many 8, 9 to mediocre performances.

I do think that Yuzuru deserves his scores, most of the time. Maybe occasionally given some generous score (that's rare).

 

[Rissa]

They may think that repeating it often enough will make it true..

Or that repeating it often enough will make others believe it.

Also, sometimes if they don't particularly enjoy his skating, they will just not get that there was a good reason for marking him highly. I noticed a poster going on and on about how Hanyu's overmarked because he's not as artistic as X, as mature as Y or as charismatic as Z. Which all are exteremely subjective matters to perceive. I mean, how does one gain a fandom if they're not charismatic? So, Hanyu might just not be that person's cup of tea and they will refuse to acknowledge his merit.

As YesWay said, though, in some cases they might be right. Yuzuru was definitely overscored in Cup of China, for example. But if a poster keeps going at it like a dog with a bone, you bet they're having a case of butthurt of some sort.

It all makes me have such flashbacks to my American Idol days, lol.

 

[Heart_009]

Rather than saying Yuzuru is too overmarked it is often seen that some skaters are underscored respective to yuzu's scores if they had similar skills. The problem is that although he won the gpf without any doubt, the way that he got there are a little questionable. We all know Yuzuru is an amazing skater and could prove himself later on and that could be the judges' reasons for his marks however, sadly every competition should be considered by itself. Yuzuru has a little backing because everyone recognizes his skill and he has the title of olympic and world champion, ex. his PCs are not affected as badly as others despite falling a number of times. It's just seems a little unfair for those who have to perform perfectly each time for more consistent marks. I'm definitely not saying this is Yuzu's fault or only his problem at all. I think this is usually the case for most of the more elite (for a lack of better terms) skaters, if you are a top tier skater that is generally consistent in skill set it seems likely that the judges with have a pre-set idea of the score range beforehand. It's kind of like if you aren't one of the elite, you have to fight for it. In some ways that may seem unfair, but it is a scenario that has cycled over and over as new skaters rise. So yes, I would say Yuzuru is overscored but not any more or less than many other top amazing skaters before him (I'm not saying all great skaters are overscored if that was misunderstood)

 

[gsyzf]

The impression I get from the judging is that, the judges actually mentally decide on a score range of PCS for each skaters based on the overall difficulty of the program (including all elements, and the in-between transitions etc). And then they add or subtract some points based on the execution quality in each component. In some way, I think it’s similar to the way TES is judged. It’s just that TES has an official base value, but PCS does not. The judges decide on the base value themselves. So Yuzuru has the most difficult program in the entire field, the starting base value of his PCS is probably in the 9s, so if he skates, well, he gets in the 9s; if he skates badly, he gets deduction, low 8s. I don’t think his score will drop to the 7s. I think high 7s might be the lowest it can go. It’s similar to the GOEs. The most you can deduct for each element is -3, for PCS, maybe the most judges are willing to deduct is -1 for each component. (This is my guess here.)
Whereas for other skaters, they have much easier programs, their starting value for PCS is not in the 9s, maybe in the 8s or 7s. So even if they skate perfectly, they may score in the mid 8s, but not in the 9s. If they skate poorly, their PCS drop to the low 7s. I don’t think the lower rank skaters’ PCS drop that significantly either. Their PCS tend to stay in the same range as well.
I do think the PCS can get inflated with reputation, but probably not as much as some people are suggesting. I am estimating at most 3-4 points PCS inflation in LP, 1-2 points PCS inflation in SP.

 

[Bonesfan]

I watched CoC and NHK and the major difference was TES. I would agree that PCS was generous for CoC.
But popping and stepping out of jumps is much worse (COP-wise) than rotating and falling.

CoC - he rotated almost everything so BV will stay "high".

NHK - Popped 4S to 2S, 4T => 3T. Disaster! Changed 3A-1L-3S to single axel to avoid zayaking. BV drops a lot.

I guess whoever is on top is going to get a lot of criticism. Yuzuru is one of the youngest Oly champions ever, and he may stay on top until he retires at the ripe old age of 23.

Or that repeating it often enough will make others believe it.

Also, sometimes if they don't particularly enjoy his skating, they will just not get that there was a good reason for marking him highly. I noticed a poster going on and on about how Hanyu's overmarked because he's not as artistic as X, as mature as Y or as charismatic as Z. Which all are exteremely subjective matters to perceive. I mean, how does one gain a fandom if they're not charismatic? So, Hanyu might just not be that person's cup of tea and they will refuse to acknowledge his merit.

As YesWay said, though, in some cases they might be right. Yuzuru was definitely overscored in Cup of China, for example. But if a poster keeps going at it like a dog with a bone, you bet they're having a case of butthurt of some sort.

It all makes me have such flashbacks to my American Idol days, lol.

 

[Eloyse]

Lol I have to disagree. Who is that skater who has similar skills as yuzuru and is underscored? For instance regarding skating skills, jeremy abbott and javier have comparable skating skills to yuzuru (maybe jeremy is better? I'm not sure), but their PCS are very high. In NHK yuzuru's PCS was lower than Jeremy's PCS, for example. Just like I said, many many skates have PCS inflation, both current skaters and retired skaters. Yuzuru's scoring is within the range of fair scoring, though sometimes at the upper limit of the range...

 

[cruzceleste]

Lol I have to disagree. Who is that skater who has similar skills as yuzuru and is underscored? For instance regarding skating skills, jeremy abbott and javier have comparable skating skills to yuzuru (maybe jeremy is better? I'm not sure), but their PCS are very high. In NHK yuzuru's PCS was lower than Jeremy's PCS, for example. Just like I said, many many skates have PCS inflation, both current skaters and retired skaters. Yuzuru's scoring is within the range of fair scoring, though sometimes at the upper limit of the range...

Jeremy is not better.

 

[Rissa]

I watched CoC and NHK and the major difference was TES. I would agree that PCS was generous for CoC.
But popping and stepping out of jumps is much worse (COP-wise) than rotating and falling.

CoC - he rotated almost everything so BV will stay "high".

NHK - Popped 4S to 2S, 4T => 3T. Disaster! Changed 3A-1L-3S to single axel to avoid zayaking. BV drops a lot.

I was mainly thinking of the PCS at COC since I know it's rather hard to overscore on TES. Yuzuru definitely got some PCS points for fighting spirit instead for that diseaster of a skate. Unless the judges thought that rotating everything while skating with a concussion must mean some badass skating skills, lol. It makes me the more relieved that he redeemed himself at GPF and didn't leave those judges from COC feeling like they wasted goodwill on him.

And now, I wish him breaking all his personal records with amazing skates, come hell or high water or the inflation bemoaning! ... No jinx!

 

[Bonesfan]

What layouts do you think Yuzuru will do for Worlds? My first hope is that he is healthy. Then to do both programs clean (i.e. fix the Lutz). If he's in really good shape, the original layout for SP would be nice (Eagle-3A-Eagle is beautiful). LP is already so difficult - I hope he keeps the easier layout. Maybe he could add back some of the tricky transitions.

 

[Interspectator]

Arakawa Shikuza said of Hanyu that he is always ready to seize a chance. While others, given the opportunity, sometimes get scared and falter, when Hanyu sees a chance, he grabs it.

I think he is fortunate and lucky sometimes, but always proving himself worthy of it in the end.

 

[Rissa]

What layouts do you think Yuzuru will do for Worlds? My first hope is that he is healthy. Then to do both programs clean (i.e. fix the Lutz). If he's in really good shape, the original layout for SP would be nice (Eagle-3A-Eagle is beautiful). LP is already so difficult - I hope he keeps the easier layout. Maybe he could add back some of the tricky transitions.

I hope for exactly the same.

The impression I get from the judging is that, the judges actually mentally decide on a score range of PCS for each skaters based on the overall difficulty of the program (including all elements, and the in-between transitions etc). And then they add or subtract some points based on the execution quality in each component.

It seems a pretty good guess of how judges might be going about it, actually.

 

[Eloyse]

Jeremy is not better.

I think so

 

[gsyzf]

That's just based on my observation. That might explain why each of the component scores is in the same range for each skater. There is no much variation in each of the component scores. I think that skaters with multiple quads and complicated transitions have PCS base value of 9s. Skaters with no quads, but has complicated transitions also has a BV of low 8s. Skaters with multiple quads, but no transitions also have a BV of low 8s. But if the skaters pop the quads and has no transitions, then the BV might drop to the 7s.

It seems a pretty good guess of how judges might be going about it, actually.

 

[Meoima]

Lol I have to disagree. Who is that skater who has similar skills as yuzuru and is underscored? For instance regarding skating skills, jeremy abbott and javier have comparable skating skills to yuzuru (maybe jeremy is better? I'm not sure), but their PCS are very high. In NHK yuzuru's PCS was lower than Jeremy's PCS, for example. Just like I said, many many skates have PCS inflation, both current skaters and retired skaters. Yuzuru's scoring is within the range of fair scoring, though sometimes at the upper limit of the range...

Jeremy has good skating skill but he's too inconsistent.
Javi in no way has comparable skating skill. Of all the top men, he might be the most too look labour on ice. This is from a Javi's fan.
IMHO, only Kozuka and Patrick Chan have better skating skill than Yuzuru. And even that, people who have seen both Yuzuru and Kozuka live in 2012 said, Yuzuru is still faster despite being not refined.

 

[Eloyse]

The impression I get from the judging is that, the judges actually mentally decide on a score range of PCS for each skaters based on the overall difficulty of the program (including all elements, and the in-between transitions etc). And then they add or subtract some points based on the execution quality in each component. In some way, I think it’s similar to the way TES is judged. It’s just that TES has an official base value, but PCS does not. The judges decide on the base value themselves. So Yuzuru has the most difficult program in the entire field, the starting base value of his PCS is probably in the 9s, so if he skates, well, he gets in the 9s; if he skates badly, he gets deduction, low 8s. I don’t think his score will drop to the 7s. I think high 7s might be the lowest it can go. It’s similar to the GOEs. The most you can deduct for each element is -3, for PCS, maybe the most judges are willing to deduct is -1 for each component. (This is my guess here.)
Whereas for other skaters, they have much easier programs, their starting value for PCS is not in the 9s, maybe in the 8s or 7s. So even if they skate perfectly, they may score in the mid 8s, but not in the 9s. If they skate poorly, their PCS drop to the low 7s. I don’t think the lower rank skaters’ PCS drop that significantly either. Their PCS tend to stay in the same range as well.
I do think the PCS can get inflated with reputation, but probably not as much as some people are suggesting. I am estimating at most 3-4 points PCS inflation in LP, 1-2 points PCS inflation in SP.

I like your thinking
But I think in many cases skaters improve their SS, transitions, interpretation over the years, so they get higher and higher PCSs. It seems as if their PCS have been inflated due to reputation and experience.

 

[Interspectator]

Jeremy has good skating skill but he's too inconsistent.
Javi in no way has comparable skating skill. Of all the top men, he might be the most too look labour on ice. This is from a Javi's fan.
IMHO, only Kozuka and Patrick Chan have better skating skill than Yuzuru. And even that, people who have seen both Yuzuru and Kozuka live in 2012 said, Yuzuru is still faster despite being not refined.

I think, a skater most directly comparable Yuzu in the Skating Skills department is Han Yan. He's having a rough season...but his edge quality and his speed are out of this world. -from my uneducated viewpoint.

 

[Meoima]

I think, a skater most directly comparable Yuzu in the Skating Skills department is Han Yan. He's having a rough season...but his edge quality and his speed are out of this world. -from my uneducated viewpoint.

Han Yan definitely has good skating skill, but he's also inconsistent. But to be fair all men are like that.
People can say whatever about Yuzuru, but ever since 2012, Yuzuru always places from 4th onwards (most of the time he's 1st or 2nd) in all the competitions he has entered, that's consistency.

 

[Eloyse]

Jeremy has good skating skill but he's too inconsistent.
Javi in no way has comparable skating skill. Of all the top men, he might be the most too look labour on ice. This is from a Javi's fan.
IMHO, only Kozuka and Patrick Chan have better skating skill than Yuzuru. And even that, people who have seen both Yuzuru and Kozuka live in 2012 said, Yuzuru is still faster despite being not refined.

I also don't think Javier has the same SS as yuzuru. But the difference is not too big so I said 'comparable'. Also, because his choreography was too hard, it may affect him a lot. Plus he has injuries. Plus he's been worried about too many silly things recently If he skated to easier programs, maybe he could skate more smoothly? But I'm not sure. Anyways I'll see by myself at Worlds