Yuzuru Hanyu: 2015-16 Season

[gsyzf]

I just want to discuss again the need for 3 quads now that Skate America is over and Skate Canada is upon us. While I don't know about attempting three quads, a quad in the second half seems to be getting closer and closer to the norm for the top guys. 2 skaters landed theirs in Skate America (Max and Shoma) and I am sure there are others who have planned to do so (like Javi). It seems like for points sake, at least in the TES department, that is coming up to be the next "thing". Thoughts?

He definitely needs 3 quads for the next Olympics. The technical bar is raised very high these days and it's not going to be lowered. I think skaters do hard jumps in the second half in order to show their skills to the judges. You can't jump a quad in the second half if you are not a good jumper. Right now, most male skaters are doing 2 quads LP. I think if the skater is capable of going for 3 quads, they will go for 3 quads in order to raise their TES. If they can't, they will at least try to jump a quad in the second half. An increase in technical difficulty also increases the PCS.

 

[Nemorml]

I just want to discuss again the need for 3 quads now that Skate America is over and Skate Canada is upon us. While I don't know about attempting three quads, a quad in the second half seems to be getting closer and closer to the norm for the top guys. 2 skaters landed theirs in Skate America (Max and Shoma) and I am sure there are others who have planned to do so (like Javi). It seems like for points sake, at least in the TES department, that is coming up to be the next "thing". Thoughts?

I think that by now doing 2 quads, one in the second half is a better option for skaters like Hanyu, Denis and Shoma that have the backing of their skating quality. It's extremely challenging and still not a recipe for disaster. Javier needs the 3rd because if he doesn't land most of them, even if his PCS is still too high judges will always favor the others if they perform cleaner. Hence why I think that if Shoma continues to lay down clean FS one after another, his PCS will certainly raise to the sky when we get to Worlds and he might grab a world medal of any color if guys like Yuzuru or Javier that are attemping 3 quads fall, especially if for example Yuzuru UR his quad, earning just 2 points for that, the PCS gap maybe will not be enough. Not jinxing Shoma, but I think Shoma X Yuzuru at Worlds will be interesting. What will happen if Yuzuru fall and Shoma lay down a clean FS bombastic, even though with simpler entrances to jumps. If Shoma keeps the momentum, I think the PCS gap will be narrow. Yuzuru better be doing lots of full run throughs of Seimei, because I think he needs to be doing very cleanish FP performances throughout the season. (And of course I'm also being selfish because I love the program) I'm certainly very excited!

And of course I don't buy the need for 3 quads at the olympics, it's not like 3974983 Boyang Jin's but with some supreme skating skills and presentation like some skating semi-gods will come out in 2 years. Most of the skaters that attempt 3 quads usually lack in several other aspects, Yuzuru is an exception. He should be worrying much more about the skaters that can consistenly land 2 quads and 3A AND have the skating quality because that's where the PCS will go to and PCS defines a ton of placements.

 

[shyne]

I just want to discuss again the need for 3 quads now that Skate America is over and Skate Canada is upon us. While I don't know about attempting three quads, a quad in the second half seems to be getting closer and closer to the norm for the top guys. 2 skaters landed theirs in Skate America (Max and Shoma) and I am sure there are others who have planned to do so (like Javi). It seems like for points sake, at least in the TES department, that is coming up to be the next "thing". Thoughts?

The field is getting more competitive these days. Just look at the Junior GP, Quads have become so common in the last few years that you can't even win a JGP event without successfully completing one now. When Yuzu won his Junior World and Junior GPF titles in 2010, he had no quad in his program. We will see many more skaters join the Senior circuit as we approaching 2018. And I really think for the next Olympics, 3 quads in FS will be a norm for men.
Right now Yuzu can win with 2 quads over someone with 3 quads and has room for small mistakes. He doesn’t need the 3rd quad to win, and if the 3rd quad attempt fails, his score will be much lower than a not-so-perfect skate with 2 quads. However, he has no control over the PCS of other skaters, if they skate a clean program, the second mark will go up. 3rd Quad is a must if Yuzu wants to defend his title in 2018.
Another thing I noticed is that in the past, when juniors turn seniors, no matter how great their skating skills and how mature their interpretations were, they always had lower PCS then skaters who competed in the senior circuit for many years, as if you need to show consistency before earning these PCS. And that’s starting to change. I’m not saying Shoma and Evgenia don’t deserve the PCS they got in SA. What I’m trying to say is that in the past, when juniors who dominated the junior circuit turn seniors, they are always underscored on the PCS and that’s changing. I think this is alarming with so many skaters with great programs in the junior circuit waiting to turn seniors in the next few years.

 

[gsyzf]

Another thing I noticed is that in the past, when juniors turn seniors, no matter how great their skating skills and how mature their interpretations were, they always had lower PCS then skaters who competed in the senior circuit for many years, as if you need to show consistency before earning these PCS. And that’s starting to change. I’m not saying Shoma and Evgenia don’t deserve the PCS they got in SA. What I’m trying to say is that in the past, when juniors who dominated the junior circuit turn seniors, they are always underscored on the PCS and that’s changing. I think this is alarming with so many skaters with great programs in the junior circuit waiting to turn seniors in the next few years.

I think in the past, juniors who turned senior got low PCS for two reasons. One is that their programs were much easier than senior skaters' programs. The other is that they were newbies and they need to show consistency to gain PCS. Now, even junior programs have similar technical difficulty as senior programs. E.g. the Russian junior ladies' programs are as difficult (maybe more difficult than) as senior ladies' programs. So when these junior skaters turn senior, they are not really underscored too much in the PCS, only a few points lower than the seniors due to their being newbies. (In the past, it was 10-15 points gap in the PCS.) The PCS gap will close when the newbies show consistency. When two skaters attempt programs with similar difficulty, the more all-round skater will get the higher PCS if they both skate well. The PCS gap between them would not be very big (definitely not a 10 points gap, more like 1-3 points) if they have similar reputation/consistency. An increase in program difficulty will increase the PCS.

Shoma's programs are not as difficult as Yuzuru's programs. So I don't think Shoma will get similar PCS as Yuzuru even if he is consistent. But his PCS is on par with senior skaters who attempt programs with similar difficulty, e.g. Max Arron, because he is relatively consistent. Shoma is a more all-round skater than Max Arron, so he got the higher PCS. But his PCS is not significantly higher than Max's, only 3 points higher. Evegenia's programs are as difficult, if not more difficult than the programs of many of the current senior ladies, so her PCS would be on par with the veteran skaters. Evegenia's PCS at SA was only 2 points lower than Gracie's and she had a fall.

 

[Eloyse]

I'm about the eurosports guys. Well, I guess next year, when Sota does a great senior debut, they will say something like 'as Yuzuru will retire after 2018, this mini Yuzu could be the new king of Japan's figure skating!!!'

I noticed that, Uno usually does 4-2 in the second half of the program MUCH BETTER than his opening 4T. This was the case in JO, as well as in SA. But Yuzu, as well as Fernandez who always falls on his second 4S, is the opposite. I find this pretty interesting.

 

[Eloyse]

And of course I don't buy the need for 3 quads at the olympics, it's not like 3974983 Boyang Jin's but with some supreme skating skills and presentation like some skating semi-gods will come out in 2 years. Most of the skaters that attempt 3 quads usually lack in several other aspects, Yuzuru is an exception. He should be worrying much more about the skaters that can consistenly land 2 quads and 3A AND have the skating quality because that's where the PCS will go to and PCS defines a ton of placements.

Boyang will try four quads in the fp and two quads in the sp this season. He has consistently landed 4lz and 4lz3t in practice and in national competitions by now. Yes, a two quad Yuzu is able to defeat him now, but what if Boyang goes for 2 quads in the short and five in the long in 2018. You know, it's not impossible for Boyang to do that. And when his tes reaches 110 plus, the judges will definitely be embarrassed to keep his PCS lower than 85, because PCS goes up with TES. So I do think Yuzu will need three quads in the fp to win his next Oly

 

[xibsuarz]

Boyang will try four quads in the fp and two quads in the sp this season. He has consistently landed 4lz and 4lz3t in practice and in national competitions by now. Yes, a two quad Yuzu is able to defeat him now, but what if Boyang goes for 2 quads in the short and five in the long in 2018. You know, it's not impossible for Boyang to do that. And when his tes reaches 110 plus, the judges will definitely be embarrassed to keep his PCS lower than 85, because PCS goes up with TES. So I do think Yuzu will need three quads in the fp to win his next Oly

I agree with that, and is very likely Boyang will try to improve his artistry for better PCS. Who knows, perhaps he will struggle with it, perhaps he won't. But Yuzu can't rely on the mistakes the rest of the field may make, champions hold the gold medal in their hands and it should depend on what he does, not on what others do or don't do.

I'm about the eurosports guys. Well, I guess next year, when Sota does a great senior debut, they will say something like 'as Yuzuru will retire after 2018, this mini Yuzu could be the new king of Japan's figure skating!!!'

I noticed that, Uno usually does 4-2 in the second half of the program MUCH BETTER than his opening 4T. This was the case in JO, as well as in SA. But Yuzu, as well as Fernandez who always falls on his second 4S, is the opposite. I find this pretty interesting.

Up until last season, when his 4S became more consistent than his 4T, it wasn't the case with Yuzu. He used to have a hard time with the 4S, his first quad, and then do a textbook 4T. But yeah, now is the other way around :hopelessness: But he was discussing it with Brian and said it was a matter of the entrance and the speed (or lack of, actually) going into them. And well, although his endurance has improved, it's still noticeable that he ends up pretty worn out after his programs, exhaustion plays a big factor there, too.

 

[Nemorml]

I'm about the eurosports guys. Well, I guess next year, when Sota does a great senior debut, they will say something like 'as Yuzuru will retire after 2018, this mini Yuzu could be the new king of Japan's figure skating!!!'

I noticed that, Uno usually does 4-2 in the second half of the program MUCH BETTER than his opening 4T. This was the case in JO, as well as in SA. But Yuzu, as well as Fernandez who always falls on his second 4S, is the opposite. I find this pretty interesting.

Don't take it to heart, Shoma is the next rising star of figure skating and Daisuke was the first they thought about when they saw Shoma of course, just that. I don't see similarities between Sota and Yuzuru though, I just don't see it. I see more between Cha Jun Hwan and Yuzuru.

I saw an interview with Shoma where said that the thing about the 2nd half quad is the timing. Yes, the legs are tired but the landing for him does not depend too much on how he's tired by that point, if he gets the timing right he'll land it. I also think it's interesting since I recall Yuzuru mentioning that sometimes he has problems with timing, especially the lutz last season. Maybe if he could get the timing right plus enough speed he might master the 2nd half quad. I hope it won't take too long ... Please. Seimei with a choreographed 2nd half fall would be such a pain for my heart.

Boyang will try four quads in the fp and two quads in the sp this season. He has consistently landed 4lz and 4lz3t in practice and in national competitions by now. Yes, a two quad Yuzu is able to defeat him now, but what if Boyang goes for 2 quads in the short and five in the long in 2018. You know, it's not impossible for Boyang to do that. And when his tes reaches 110 plus, the judges will definitely be embarrassed to keep his PCS lower than 85, because PCS goes up with TES. So I do think Yuzu will need three quads in the fp to win his next Oly

Sorry but no, I don't see 'it factor' in Boyang at all and honestly I think just a handful of people see artistic potential in him. And we all know how figure skating works, people can scream all they want about little jumping beans but 90% of the time judges will always go for the complete skaters, they are the ones that will keep themselves on top. Tech alone might give you 1 or 2 titles but semi-consistency is what keeps you on top and, gasp, even in the men's discipline. There's a reason of why Boyang was consistenly held down on juniors. I will not surprised if it also happens on seniors. Sorry if I'm being too forward but that's just my opinion. The chances of a skater with 4 quads being able to do consistenly great performances and build momentum is extremely little. Not to mention how a 4/5 quad program would probably be unbalanced. I worry about Boyang's transition to seniors actually. For 2018 I think Shoma is 3x a bigger threat since he will be getting the PCS love and is showing that he's also technically capable, even if his landing are dangerously low.

 

[Meoima]

My reation turned from this....:shocked:....to .........to "what about yuzu?, he's not retired nor dead, and as a matter of fact, does exist"

Why are you taking too serious words of the guys who keep botching his names from time to time? "and you name to me but I won't forget...Yazunori Hanyu..." And it's not just one or two time. Last season they also botched his name once or twice or so.

Please take my words, those commentators they sometimes say words you should never take serious, for example this is from Kurt Browning, he said something like Yuna Kim's 3Lz3T was more difficult than Mao's 3A2T because "it has more 0.5 revolution". :hopelessness: That's Kurt Browning, 4 time WC for you.

 

[cheerknithanson]

SLOW DOWN! I can only turn away for so long before so many updates come in.

 

[xibsuarz]

SLOW DOWN! I can only turn away for so long before so many updates come in.

Well, you know how it is in here, this thread moves too fast to catch up! I shouldn't have doubted our capability to reach 2000 before the GPF

 

[Eloyse]

I agree with that, and is very likely Boyang will try to improve his artistry for better PCS. Who knows, perhaps he will struggle with it, perhaps he won't. But Yuzu can't rely on the mistakes the rest of the field may make, champions hold the gold medal in their hands and it should depend on what he does, not on what others do or don't do.

This. Actually, I find Boyang's programs quite enjoyable. His style is very genuine and lively, and I do prefer this style to some mature but generic and manufactured artistry. His short program, the tango, is actually fine to my eyes. His big jumps are pure art in themselves. With time his PCS will certainly grow.

Don't take it to heart, Shoma is the next rising star of figure skating and Daisuke was the first they thought about when they saw Shoma of course, just that. I don't see similarities between Sota and Yuzuru though, I just don't see it. I see more between Cha Jun Hwan and Yuzuru.

I saw an interview with Shoma where said that the thing about the 2nd half quad is the timing. Yes, the legs are tired but the landing for him does not depend too much on how he's tired by that point, if he gets the timing right he'll land it. I also think it's interesting since I recall Yuzuru mentioning that sometimes he has problems with timing, especially the lutz last season. Maybe if he could get the timing right plus enough speed he might master the 2nd half quad. I hope it won't take too long ... Please. Seimei with a choreographed 2nd half fall would be such a pain for my heart.

Junhwan, Sota and Yuzu have similar body type, that is probably the reason why people say they are the next Yuzuru hanyu. But re technique and style, I really don't see much similarity between Sota and Yuzu.
PS. I like these boys as they are, not because I want to find replacement to fill a void. Okay I should stop digressing from topic

Re uno's quad, yes I did learn that he doesn't rely on strength. But I don't know why he is prone to mess up the timing of the first quad but find the perfect timing of the second quad. Both in JO and in SA he barely hanged to his opening quad. But that may be just coincidence. We will see in later competitions.

 

[Eloyse]

Why are you taking too serious words of the guys who keep botching his names from time to time? "and you name to me but I won't forget...Yazunori Hanyu..." And it's not just one or two time. Last season they also botched his name once or twice or so.

Please take my words, those commentators they sometimes say words you should never take serious, for example this is from Kurt Browning, he said something like Yuna Kim's 3Lz3T was more difficult than Mao's 3A2T because "it has more 0.5 revolution". :hopelessness: That's Kurt Browning, 4 time WC for you.

OMG 0.5 revolutions more that is fun

 

[AprilS]

Why are you taking too serious words of the guys who keep botching his names from time to time? "and you name to me but I won't forget...Yazunori Hanyu..." And it's not just one or two time. Last season they also botched his name once or twice or so.

Please take my words, those commentators they sometimes say words you should never take serious, for example this is from Kurt Browning, he said something like Yuna Kim's 3Lz3T was more difficult than Mao's 3A2T because "it has more 0.5 revolution". :hopelessness: That's Kurt Browning, 4 time WC for you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was Scott Hamilton? He never even competed a 3A and his hardest jump was a 3Lz-3T so of course he would say that! I'm sure he wasn't biased at all .

 

[shyne]

I think in the past, juniors who turned senior got low PCS for two reasons. One is that their programs were much easier than senior skaters' programs. The other is that they were newbies and they need to show consistency to gain PCS. Now, even junior programs have similar technical difficulty as senior programs. E.g. the Russian junior ladies' programs are as difficult (maybe more difficult than) as senior ladies' programs. So when these junior skaters turn senior, they are not really underscored too much in the PCS, only a few points lower than the seniors due to their being newbies. (In the past, it was 10-15 points gap in the PCS.) The PCS gap will close when the newbies show consistency. When two skaters attempt programs with similar difficulty, the more all-round skater will get the higher PCS if they both skate well. The PCS gap between them would not be very big (definitely not a 10 points gap, more like 1-3 points) if they have similar reputation/consistency. An increase in program difficulty will increase the PCS.

Shoma's programs are not as difficult as Yuzuru's programs. So I don't think Shoma will get similar PCS as Yuzuru even if he is consistent. But his PCS is on par with senior skaters who attempt programs with similar difficulty, e.g. Max Arron, because he is relatively consistent. Shoma is a more all-round skater than Max Arron, so he got the higher PCS. But his PCS is not significantly higher than Max's, only 3 points higher. Evegenia's programs are as difficult, if not more difficult than the programs of many of the current senior ladies, so her PCS would be on par with the veteran skaters. Evegenia's PCS at SA was only 2 points lower than Gracie's and she had a fall.

Junior ladies with programs as difficult if not more difficult than senior ladies existed for so many years. Comparing the PCS of Junior ladies who dominated the Jr circuit (Winning all GP events, JGP+J World titles) for their senior debut GP PCS: Mao（53.92）； Yuna （55.20）； Adelina（54.52）； Julia (57.43）；Elena （58.90)； Evegenia （68.93). Evegenia is special, but not "10+ points PCS than everyone else special". But I think the judges are doing the right thing. The second mark should reflect how someone skated and not how many years they have skated.

I agree with you even if Shoma's very consistent, his PCS can not reach Yuzu's. Yuzu and Patrick are in a league of their own in terms of PCS.
I'm more troubled with his StSq2 level at SCAC. But I'm sure Yuzu and his team will figure this out.

 

[FTnoona]

I wouldn't be too irked with the comments. It's just natural that young talent will come up and wow people. Hanyu is in the position of being chased and people will get excited at the prospect of some skaters catching up sooner or later. At the end of the day it will depend all on what Hanyu can produce in competition.

 

[shyne]

Why are you taking too serious words of the guys who keep botching his names from time to time? "and you name to me but I won't forget...Yazunori Hanyu..." And it's not just one or two time. Last season they also botched his name once or twice or so.

Please take my words, those commentators they sometimes say words you should never take serious, for example this is from Kurt Browning, he said something like Yuna Kim's 3Lz3T was more difficult than Mao's 3A2T because "it has more 0.5 revolution". :hopelessness: That's Kurt Browning, 4 time WC for you.

OMG
This one I will never forget!!

 

[Eloyse]

Sorry but no, I don't see 'it factor' in Boyang at all and honestly I think just a handful of people see artistic potential in him. And we all know how figure skating works, people can scream all they want about little jumping beans but 90% of the time judges will always go for the complete skaters, they are the ones that will keep themselves on top. Tech alone might give you 1 or 2 titles but semi-consistency is what keeps you on top and, gasp, even in the men's discipline. There's a reason of why Boyang was consistenly held down on juniors. I will not surprised if it also happens on seniors. Sorry if I'm being too forward but that's just my opinion. The chances of a skater with 4 quads being able to do consistenly great performances and build momentum is extremely little. Not to mention how a 4/5 quad program would probably be unbalanced. I worry about Boyang's transition to seniors actually. For 2018 I think Shoma is 3x a bigger threat since he will be getting the PCS love and is showing that he's also technically capable, even if his landing are dangerously low.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy Boyang as much as I do the reason why jumping beans never beat all round skaters in the previous olympics is that they did three quads at most. But Boyang is a different story. And, is his presentation so much inferior to Uno's? Or Nathen Chen's? Boyang's PCS and skating skill scores were in top three in last year's JGP and JWC if I remember correctly. His skating skill score was the highest among all five component scores. What I'm trying to say is that Boyang is not that lacking in basic skills and presentation compared to his peers, as many people tend to think. We will see what happens in the next few years

 

[shyne]

I'm about the eurosports guys. Well, I guess next year, when Sota does a great senior debut, they will say something like 'as Yuzuru will retire after 2018, this mini Yuzu could be the new king of Japan's figure skating!!!'

I noticed that, Uno usually does 4-2 in the second half of the program MUCH BETTER than his opening 4T. This was the case in JO, as well as in SA. But Yuzu, as well as Fernandez who always falls on his second 4S, is the opposite. I find this pretty interesting.

Shoma has only added the 2nd Quad to his FS this year, so basically we have only seen him done this in competitions twice. I think it's too early to say his 4-2 is much better than opening 4T at this point. Maybe he is more comfortable with the entry to the 2nd Quad? It's all my speculations at this point.
As for Sota. I do see a mini Yuzu in him, through his outfits though

 

[Meoima]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was Scott Hamilton? He never even competed a 3A and his hardest jump was a 3Lz-3T so of course he would say that! I'm sure he wasn't biased at all .

Oh yes sorry it might be Scott Hamilton. I remember it's either Scott or Kurt because it was too long ago, like 5 years already (in Olympic 2010). But yes even if it's Scott it's still such an "oh my God" comment. And you know Scott Hamilton is a very BIG name :hopelessness: I am still not sure if it's Scott or Kurt. That's why we shouldn't take their words too seriously most of the time. lol