Zagitova edges out Medvedeva for Oly Gold

[lappo]

Everytime somebody mentions Flames of Paris my mind goes automatically to Natalia Osipova...the ultimate Kitri for me! OT, has anyone ever skated to Flames? It's a bit of a pity that among so much choice people always choose the same three or fours...

 

[Alexz]

...and Ivan Vasiliev! :agree:

 

[lappo]

...and Ivan Vasiliev! :agree:

I'm team Sergey!

ETA: not that I don't appreciate Vasiliev, but he was the one who broke up with her so out of women solidarity...Still Ivan is great but Sergey...

 

[qwertyskates]

That was in response to qwertyskates' comments that Alina's arm movements were in the Russian ballet style, choreographed in a manner that you see for Russian prima ballerinas and she was successful in executing some movements like a Russian prima ballerina would. I know, the comparison is hilarious.




Yes, figure skating is a sport but figure skating also has an artistic side. Figure skaters are athletes but they also need to be artists.

I know Alina is not a ballerina. I don't expect her to move like a professional ballerina. I certainly don't expect her to move like Evgenia Obratsova. However, as you said, she was imitating and presenting an interpretation of ballet on skates. I expect some balletic quality to her arm movements- grace, delicacy, control, softness in the elbows, proper shape of the arms - which I did not find. These are very basic.

Do I think Alina deserved to win? Yes I do. I thought they could have given it to Evgenia if they wanted to but I thought Alina's win was justified. But she won for skating a difficult program successfully, not for successful intepretation of ballet on skates. She won for her athletic ability, not her artistry.

When I read your last post, I started to understand why I find your understanding of ballet extremely puzzling. This is also why i prefer not to have any further discourse.

There are anomalies in the claims you repeatedly post that Alina's arms are wrong because they are angular whereas ballet and flamenco arms are "soft, delicate, ease of flow".

Anyone who learns ballet knows that there are character port de bras that must be specially learned. In particular the Spanish port de bras for productions like DQ and Carmen are very different from what one learns in standard studio arm positions. I posted vidoes to show what they teach at the real Vaganova institute and pointed out that the elbows and wrists are "angular, "crooked", strong, rhythmic" for Spanish arm movements. I also find the other postings on ballet terms completely puzzling, but it is up to those who are interested to google and find out for themselves what is pas de bourree, pas couru, pas de bourree en couru. I don't even know what they have to do with Alina's program.

So in fact Alina is taught the correct arm movements for a feisty, dynamic Spanish prima ballerina, different from a Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty.

It is a wrong expectation that she should be soft, delicate, etc. like you insist. Alina's characterization with her stronger, angular, arm movements and wrist flicks are right. Danii's mother, Lyudmila Borisovna Shalashova, was a ballet dancer with the Bolshoi Theatre. She knows what is the right choreography for Kitri's arms.

It is unfair to Alina when she is doing something right to be accused of doing something wrong because audiences don't know any better and think that ballet should always look a certain soft, delicate way when different ballet characters need to perform differently, whether it's Kitri, Esmeralda or Giselle.

Finally, figure skating moves (constant bearing down on ice) are completely different from ballet moves (lots of leaps in the air). The use of different muscle groups for different movements means that the performance will be very different. Ballet uses the entire body's musculature, particularly the core, for every move, while figure skating depends mostly on the lower body. Some ballet positions can be held in a spiral, like ina bauer or charlotte, or a split jump like jete, but real ballet is absolutely different from figure skating since in figure skating, the body follows the skating.

A *semblance" of ballet can be performed, but it is very minimal ballet with poses and positions. It is wrong to expect Alina to perform or look like the REAL Kitri on stage. She can only do that if she trains in ballet for 8 years and brings her pointe shoes to the ice and start leaping instead of skating. Alina can bring *some* elements of Kitri, particularly with her arm movements and with the correct structure of music, a feeling of how a DQ pd2 is experienced with the climax at the end.

A ballerina trains for at least 8 years in ballet, a figure skater at least 8 years in figure skating, neither can do what the other does, though cross training is very beneficial for both.

What Proklova did is perform a very typical figure skating SP with the standard music and elements arrangements. She has many great qualities, elegance, dynamism, flexibility, musicality, jumps, etc. If she had performed and won the OGM with a backloaded FS like Alina the hate would have piled on as well, no doubt about it. It is because she performed according to typical expectations that it feels familiar and likeable.

Finally, I have a busy real life, and won't be around much to answer, I would prefer you do not refer to me in your posts, since I do not understand your type of ballet.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Baby Zags is already plotting a similar path to the top!

https://instagram.com/p/Bfz4-l3hkvt/

#LilSis

 

[Elucidus]

Baby Zags is already plotting a similar path to the top!

https://instagram.com/p/Bfz4-l3hkvt/

#LilSis

It's easy to see that she is extremely shy and she feels high level of discomfort. She doesn't want to answer journalists questions or even see them at all. As always adults doesn't care about children feelings and force them to do what is convenient to them. It's a shame, really.

 

[Fresca]

There are anomalies in the claims you repeatedly post that Alina's arms are wrong because they are angular whereas ballet and flamenco arms are "soft, delicate, ease of flow".

Anyone who learns ballet knows that there are character port de bras that must be specially learned. In particular the Spanish port de bras for productions like DQ and Carmen are very different from what one learns in standard studio arm positions. I posted vidoes to show what they teach at the real Vaganova institute and pointed out that the elbows and wrists are "angular, "crooked", strong, rhythmic" for Spanish arm movements.

So in fact Alina is taught the correct arm movements for a feisty, dynamic Spanish prima ballerina, different from a Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty.

It is a wrong expectation that she should be soft, delicate, etc. like you insist. Alina's characterization with her stronger, angular, arm movements and wrist flicks are right. Danii's mother, Lyudmila Borisovna Shalashova, was a ballet dancer with the Bolshoi Theatre. She knows what is the right choreography for Kitri's arms.

It is unfair to Alina when she is doing something right to be accused of doing something wrong because audiences don't know any better and think that ballet should always look a certain soft, delicate way when different ballet characters need to perform differently, whether it's Kitri, Esmeralda or Giselle.

Anyone who learns ballet knows and can see that the standard studio arm positions are incorporated into all character port de bras, including the Spanish port de bras for DQ and Carmen and you cannot do these special port de bras without being able to do the standard studio arm positions. If you cannot see how the standard port de bras is incorporated into the Spanish port de bras, I don't know what to say. Even if you can't see how the standard ballet port de bras is incorporated, you can see that Alina's arm movements don't look like what you posted in the Vaganova Spanish port de bras clip, or the clip I posted of Evgenia Obratsova, the prima ballerina dancing Kitri.

I also find the other postings on ballet terms completely puzzling, but it is up to those who are interested to google and find out for themselves what is pas de bourree, pas couru, pas de bourree en couru. I don't even know what they have to do with Alina's program.

Those clips explain the other ballet terms I used in my posts.

I posted that clip because you said that you don't like and don't understand ballets with bourrees. It confused me because the bourree is a basic step, one of the first things you learn and you can find it in nearly all if not all ballets. So I don't know what kind of ballet you like and practice that does not have bourrees.

A *semblance" of ballet can be performed, but it is very minimal ballet with poses and positions. It is wrong to expect Alina to perform or look like the REAL Kitri on stage. She can only do that if she trains in ballet for 8 years and brings her pointe shoes to the ice and start leaping instead of skating. Alina can bring *some* elements of Kitri, particularly with her arm movements and with the correct structure of music, a feeling of how a DQ pd2 is experienced with the climax at the end.

A ballerina trains for at least 8 years in ballet, a figure skater at least 8 years in figure skating, neither can do what the other does, though cross training is very beneficial for both.

What Proklova did is perform a very typical figure skating SP with the standard music and elements arrangements. She has many great qualities, elegance, dynamism, flexibility, musicality, jumps, etc. If she had performed and won the OGM with a backloaded FS like Alina the hate would have piled on as well, no doubt about it. It is because she performed according to typical expectations that it feels familiar and likeable.

There is no "semblance" of ballet with just poses and positions. It's how you get to those poses/positions, the movement between the poses/positions, where the ballet really happens. Those other ladies mentioned before - Mao, Yuna, Yulia, Gabriella, Alexandra - they are also figure skaters, not ballet dancers but they have balletic arm movements. If you cannot see the difference between the balletic quality of the arm movements of Alexandra and Alina, again I don't know what to say. It has nothing to do with backloading or the competition.

Finally, I have a busy real life, and won't be around much to answer, I would prefer you do not refer to me in your posts, since I do not understand your type of ballet.

Yes, likewise. I also don't understand your type of ballet.

 

[qwertyskates]

Anyone who learns ballet knows and can see that the standard studio arm positions are incorporated into all character port de bras, including the Spanish port de bras for DQ and Carmen and you cannot do these special port de bras without being able to do the standard studio arm positions. If you cannot see how the standard port de bras is incorporated into the Spanish port de bras, I don't know what to say. Even if you can't see how the standard ballet port de bras is incorporated, you can see that Alina's arm movements don't look like what you posted in the Vaganova Spanish port de bras clip, or the clip I posted of Evgenia Obratsova, the prima ballerina dancing Kitri.



Those clips explain the other ballet terms I used in my posts.

I posted that clip because you said that you don't like and don't understand ballets with bourrees. It confused me because the bourree is a basic step, one of the first things you learn and you can find it in nearly all if not all ballets. So I don't know what kind of ballet you like and practice that does not have bourrees.



There is no "semblance" of ballet with just poses and positions. It's how you get to those poses/positions, the movement between the poses/positions, where the ballet really happens. Those other ladies mentioned before - Mao, Yuna, Yulia, Gabriella, Alexandra - they are also figure skaters, not ballet dancers but they have balletic arm movements. If you cannot see the difference between the balletic quality of the arm movements of Alexandra and Alina, again I don't know what to say. It has nothing to do with backloading or the competition.



Yes, likewise. I also don't understand your type of ballet.

Let's see why I don't understand your type of ballet.

Actually, "pas de bourree" (3-step move) and "pas couru" (running step) are completely different steps and not interchangeable which you claimed.

Pas de bourree has many many variations, "pas de bourree en tournant" with turns, "pas de bourree pique" with sharp foot movement, "pas de bourree en couru (or suivi in Russian)" with running movement, "pas de bourree jete", etc.

Pas couru is running steps. They can be added to other steps for variations, but couru is NOT bourree nor vice versa like you claim. Couru is of course one of the simplest movements, tip-toe or en pointe running steps, and that is what a lot of people think ballet is about, but it isn't.

Don't take anybody's word for it. Here's a technical manual

Technical Manual and Dictionary of Classical Ballet by Gail Grant

Google book at pg 75 and it describes all the variations of p d bourree, including p d bourree en couru.

You are confusing "pas de bourree" with "pas couru", the "tippy toe" movement that is a ballet caricature. Yes, both are BASIC ballet 101 training.

I understand both very well, and my posts simply stated my dislike when people assume it's ballet because some "pas couru" (which you wrongly call "bourree") or tippy toe movements are done on skates.

Everyone with some dance training can easily do basic port de bras, 5 arm positions, including Alina, or some tip-toe running steps on ice. The skaters you mentioned have some basic arms. However, Alina has to perform Spanish port de bras of Kitri, well known in ballet as Character Port de Bras, lots of elbow and wrists movements, and you claimed that the Spanish Kitri arm movements are wrong because they are angular and not soft and delicate! It would be WRONG to portray feisty Kitri with the arms of say, Giselle or Odile, which is to you the "correct" ballet arms since those are "soft and delicate".

You can insist all you want, but the anomalies in your claims must be pointed out.

Ballet dancers move and look the way they do because of years of ballet training. The most distinctive look is one of total control of their bodies, strong musculature, all translated into carriage. This quality is seldom seen on figure skaters, who might be trained only in basic ballet, eg Nathan, but that is fine because they should be judged mostly on figure skating, and not ballet, as figure skating is not ballet.

Besides the arms, Alina brought DQ artistically by bringing some moments of the ballet, but most importantly, by staying true to the P d 2 composition and structure, with its Adagio front and famous exhilarating finale of jumps and fouettes, ending on a high note.

Most skaters, Proklova, Irina, gave a small spliced version, without staying true to how the P d 2 is structured or builds up.

Her critics of backloading are saying she should respect their expectations instead of following the music, which is to me not respecting the original intent of DQ.

 

[schizoanalyst]

OK. Get ready everyone for my nuclear hot take of the day. And like all good hot takes, I have to take it way too far.

Zagitova has *performed* Don Quixote just about better than any ballerina at any major company working today.

Because the effort is visible and the motions are imprecise. It grounds the performance and gives it personality not just boring, glassy perfection. I mean, Ulanova or Farrell are *not* as technically gifted as the best ballerinas today, not even close really, but they are far superior as performers. The fetishization of precision and technique has stamped out any mystery, sexiness, personality, complexity, or playfulness. Because it’s all technique and nothing more. We’ve gone full circle to when ballet was just goofy court dancing dismissed by serious thinkers as a boring, bizarre form with nonsensical, wild gesticulating, before it really became what we understood it could be due to people like Noverre. I fear the only hope is for ballet to shift towards emphasizing men who aren’t as concerned with that type of precision (more-so because the talent pool is smaller, making them less likely to be replaced, and people don’t fetish male precision in the same way) Stanton Welch’s exhilarating Clear way back in the early 2000s is an example of what I mean. In short, I'm rather happy Zagitova doesn't have the precise motions of a prima ballerina, at least by today's standards. Though this says more about my opinions of current ballet than Zagitova, I couldn't help but shooting off a rant lol.

 

[Fresca]

On bourree and couru

There's a difference in terminologies between what the different schools/teachers use and vernacular vs. formal terms. "Pas de bourree" is never referred to as just "bourree". I've never ever heard that. Not by teachers and not by dancers. I agree that the video is not "pas de bourree". It's "pas de bourree suivi" but usually, that is just referred to as "bourree" in the vernacular. I haven't heard the word "suivi" in a very long time. And "pas couru" is usually shortened to just "couru". I'm referring to "pas de bourree suivi" or "bourree" as the running step in 5th and "pas couru" or "couru" as the running step in 1st. Hope that clears that up.

Everyone with some dance training can easily do basic port de bras, 5 arm positions, including Alina, or some tip-toe running steps on ice. The skaters you mentioned have some basic arms. However, Alina has to perform Spanish port de bras of Kitri, well known in ballet as Character Port de Bras, lots of elbow and wrists movements, and you claimed that the Spanish Kitri arm movements are wrong because they are angular and not soft and delicate! It would be WRONG to portray feisty Kitri with the arms of say, Giselle or Odile, which is to you the "correct" ballet arms since those are "soft and delicate".

You can insist all you want, but the anomalies in your claims must be pointed out

Do you have any clips of Alina doing the basic arm positions? If Alina can do the basic port de bras, why doesn't she incorporate it into her Spanish port de bras as she should? These are honest questions. Would love to see her basic port de bras.

Yes, it would be wrong to portray Kitri with the arms of Giselle or Odile. Feisty Kitri should have energetic arms like the Kitri clip I posted which is different from the swan arms. I've always said I don't have a problem with the choreography - the elbow and wrist action from flamenco influence. I claimed that Alina's arms are wrong because they are flappy and uncontrolled. They are also wrong because even with the Spanish port de bras, the movement down and up from 5th position into and out of the front or side is very classic port de bras even if the movement is faster or more emphatic. Here is where I have an issue with the shape and the movement, where I think the shape of her port de bras is too bent at the elbow without the full extension and and she is lacking fluidity. I call that fluidity "softness". If you like, I can just say fluidity.

BTW, Alexandra is also doing the Kitri port de bras. She is not just doing the basic ballet port de bras.

Besides the arms, Alina brought DQ artistically by bringing some moments of the ballet, but most importantly, by staying true to the P d 2 composition and structure, with its Adagio front and famous exhilarating finale of jumps and fouettes, ending on a high note.

Most skaters, Proklova, Irina, gave a small spliced version, without staying true to how the P d 2 is structured or builds up.

Her critics of backloading are saying she should respect their expectations instead of following the music, which is to me not respecting the original intent of DQ.

I have no problems with the backloading. I agree with this.

Whole post.

Mind blown indeed. I've heard another former ballet dancer say Alina's arms in her FS look like she was fending off a swan attacking her for daring to imitate it in her SP and that's how I see it as well but YMMV...

 

[Mathman]

Zagitova has *performed* Don Quixote just about better than any ballerina at any major company working today.

Because the effort is visible and the motions are imprecise.

You would love my performances. Talk about visible effort and imprecise movements!

The exciting thing about Alina's "semblance of ballet dancing" is the tension she brings onto the ice. Will she be able to get through all those elements before the four minutes run out? All those jumps in that mile-a-minute second half? Yes! She even managed a do-over of the triple Lutz /triple loop, just when we thought all was lost!

Speaking of semblance of ballet moves and positions, what it the name of the move that Alexandra Proklova does at about 1:52 of this marvelous romp (linked above), where she stands on one skate and extends her other leg, knee bent, toe pointed, and does some cool movements with her free leg?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIreGUL0fds

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Speaking of semblance of ballet moves and positions, what it the name of the move that Alexandra Proklova does at about 1:52 of this marvelous romp (linked above), where she stands on one skate and extends her other leg, knee bent, toe pointed, and twirls the free leg in a couple of little circles?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIreGUL0fds

There might be a more technical term someone versed in ballet will give you but in my books it’s called the “happy horsey”

 

[chopinskate]

Mind blown indeed. I've heard another former ballet dancer say Alina's arms in her FS look like she was fending off a swan attacking her for daring to imitate it in her SP and that's how I see it as well but YMMV...

The takes right now are very hot indeed.

You would love my performances. Talk about visible effort and imprecise movements!

Mine would be effortless. Sitting on a chair, saying you won't do it, doesn't take effort.

 

[chopinskate]

post

What do you think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHjnZOuj3t4

 

[qwertyskates]

You would love my performances. Talk about visible effort and imprecise movements!

The exciting thing about Alina's "semblance of ballet dancing" is the tension she brings onto the ice. Will she be able to get through all those elements before the four minutes run out? All those jumps in that mile-a-minute second half? Yes! She even managed a do-over of the triple Lutz /triple loop, just when we thought all was lost!

Speaking of semblance of ballet moves and positions, what it the name of the move that Alexandra Proklova does at about 1:52 of this marvelous romp (linked above), where she stands on one skate and extends her other leg, knee bent, toe pointed, and does some cool movements with her free leg?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIreGUL0fds

Hi Mathman, I believe it's "frappe", very cute as done by Proklova. :agree:

I really, really like this DQ sp by Proklova too, she is an adorable Kitri, and technically very strong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVY9DxkSGWY

I believe that's how Starbucks came up with "frappucino".

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

What do you think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHjnZOuj3t4

I’m extremely curious to see how they’d do with a pair of knife boots strapped on his feet.

 

[chopinskate]

I’m extremely curious to see how he’d do with a pair of knife boots strapped on his feet.

? That was for the comment that "ballerinas are too technical and can't perform". Giselle Murphy brings both to her Odile.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

? That was for the comment that "ballerinas are too technical and can't perform". Giselle Murphy brings both to her Odile.

I know but on an unrelated note I’d like to see them perform with knife boots on.

 

[Mathman]

I’m extremely curious to see how they’d do with a pair of knife boots strapped on his feet.

This? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

 

[chopinskate]

I know but on an unrelated note I’d like to see them perform with knife boots on.

Oh, Gillian, whoops.

I have no comments on translating ballet to ice. I'd rather skaters just performed to the music, and well.