2015 Worlds Ladies Short Program March 26

[Alba]

Liza's SP from CBC (there's a minor glitch for a second at the 00:50 second mark, oops)

Thank you a lot!

 

[sabinfire]

Thank you a lot!

Kurt: "It doesn't matter how many triple axels Evgeni Plushenko landed, he never got a kiss when he got off the ice."

 

[Meoima]

Not quite. In this competition, they were somewhat critical of Kanako, who some felt should have placed above Satoko.
However, my point being, if Satoko jumped so horribly as you say, I'm sure there would have been some mention of it. They've always called jumps as they see it.

They also showered Kovtun with praise, who many people feel should never get the PCS he is getting.
Slow motion videos (plural) of Satoko's jumps everywhere can show you that her jumps are flawed in technique.

Why did I did the frame by frame screenshot? Because Satoko's fan call Kanako's jumping technique as flaw. Note that I am not a big fan of Kanako or something. But for Satoko's fans to call out Kanako's jumping technique just to defend Kanako = Pot. Kettle. Black!

With the same height Katen Chen and Midori Ito jump much much bigger, so being small is not an excuse for poor jumps.

Kanako rotates very fast, so people rarely notice her take-off, they sense that there is something not right about her jumps, but they couldn't tell because they only focus on the landing.

I can make frame by frame screenshot comparison to show you. Most ladies with okay jumps have just 1/4 pre-rotatation while with Satoko it's more than 3/4 or almost the whole first revolution. Liza (I have just screenshot her Flip by setting 0.25 in the slow motion) has just below 1/4.

 

[r1kubu]

Not quite. In this competition, they were somewhat critical of Kanako, who some felt should have placed above Satoko.

However, my point being, if Satoko jumped so horribly as you say, I'm sure there would have been some mention of it. They've always called jumps as they see it.

yes. one of british euro guys questioned Ashley's 3F and it seems judges agreed with the brit.
so being positive to anyone doesn't mean they're ignoring someone's failure, I think.

 

[Alba]

Kurt: "It doesn't matter how many triple axels Evgeni Plushenko landed, he never got a kiss when he got off the ice."

Carol: "Eat that!"

 

[Scovies]

IDK, I don't think Wagner needed to go to 4CC to prove herself to the international judges. She still achieved the fourth highest PCS, and that was with multiple errors. No doubt she would have been 31-32 on the PCS if she was clean. If Wagner came here and skated to win, she probably would have been in second right now.

True. Also, she had her GPF final result and a fantastic performance at Nationals. I don't think she needed 4CC, either; she's been there before and knows how much it can affect your preparations for worlds. She's certainly not old, but she does need to be more selective in how often she competes compared the teenagers.

 

[Globetrotter]

They also showered Kovtun with praise, who many people feel should never get the PCS he is getting.
Slow motion videos (plural) of Satoko's jumps everywhere can show you that her jumps are flawed in technique.

Why did I did the frame by frame screenshot? Because Satoko's fan call Kanako's jumping technique as flaw. Note that I am not a big fan of Kanako or something. But for Satoko's fans to call out Kanako's jumping technique just to defend Kanako = Pot. Kettle. Black!

With the same height Katen Chen and Midori Ito jump much much bigger, so being small is not an excuse for poor jumps.

Kanako rotates very fast, so people rarely notice her take-off, they sense that there is something not right about her jumps, but they couldn't tell because they only focus on the landing.

I can make frame by frame screenshot comparison to show you. Most ladies with okay jumps have just 1/4 pre-rotatation while with Satoko it's more than 3/4 or almost the whole first revolution. Liza (I have just screenshot her Flip by setting 0.25 in the slow motion) has just below 1/4.

Hi Meoima, I watched Sam Skwantch's jumpamatron on Satoko and also your frame by frame. I doubt that the tech panel has access to and the time to frame shot every move and it is true, Satoko does rotate very fast. Even on slo-mo, the 3Lz-3T looked only borderline and I am assuming that the tech panel gave her the benefit of the doubt. The 3F to me was not short on the landing but the pre-rotation does bother me and I agree it should be < but I guess that the tech panel simply didn't have the evidence within the time frame to justify giving a < since they were borderline. However, what I agree with you is that it should be mostly 0 GOEs, not 1 and 2.

That said, outside the jumps, I think it is very easy to underestimate Satoko whose bladework, steps and musicality is great. IMO, her TES should be lower, about 33-34 due to GOEs (not BV as it was evidently hard to spot < without your frame by frames), I do think her PCS should be higher as her SS and PE certainly should be as good as Gracie if not better. Overall, her scores should be about ~65.

 

[Scovies]

Liza's SP from CBC (there's a minor glitch for a second at the 00:50 second mark, oops)

Thanks for sharing, sabinfire! I loved Kurt's commentary. I've watched her program a few times now and my respect for her keeps growing. Such a gutsy performance.

 

[Meoima]

Hi Meoima, I watched Sam Skwantch's jumpamatron on Satoko and also your frame by frame. I doubt that the tech panel has access to and the time to frame shot every move and it is true, Satoko does rotate very fast. Even on slo-mo, the 3Lz-3T looked only borderline and I am assuming that the tech panel gave her the benefit of the doubt. The 3F to me was not short on the landing but the pre-rotation does bother me and I agree it should be < but I guess that the tech panel simply didn't have the evidence within the time frame to justify giving a < since they were borderline. However, what I agree with you is that it should be mostly 0 GOEs, not 1 and 2.
That said, outside the jumps, I think it is very easy to underestimate Satoko whose bladework, steps and musicality is great. IMO, her TES should be lower, about 33-34 due to GOEs (not BV as it was evidently hard to spot < without your frame by frames), I do think her PCS should be higher as her SS and PE certainly should be as good as Gracie if not better. Overall, her scores should be about ~65.

That is also my point right from the beginning. I often say I think Satoko is underscored in PCS as her SS and musicality are very great. So if they reward her more in PCS I'd have no problem. I also think Satoko should be higher than 60, but she should be below Kanako whose jumps I'd never call flawless.

The problem I have with the tech panel is mostly about the TES. They say Shin Amano is very strict so I expect more than that from him. He did call Mao's jumps many times mainly because of pre-rotation. Let's assume he was right about Mao's jumps I'd have no problem with it. Then why did he spare Satoko's jumps when it's more obvious to notice her flaws?

And I didn't capture those screenshots manually. I use Video to JPG converter and set option "every frame" to all skaters and the different in angle is obvious. But even without that, in the replay I already notice her pre-rotation toe pick already. And I think people in the tech panel should have noticed it better, as they're all specialist.

My conclusion is that the tech panel was too lenient, and Shin Amano is not strict and not even consistent. I don't know his reasons. Why he didn't call Satoko as he did to Mao? Maybe he spared Satoko because JSF couldn't afford to lose 3 spots at Worlds for ladies? When it was Mao's time, even though he was strict to her, they didn't have to worry about that 3 spots.

 

[Globetrotter]

The problem I have with the tech panel is mostly about the TES. They say Shin Amano is very strict so I expect more than that from him. He did call Mao's jumps many times mainly because of pre-rotation. Let's assume he was right about Mao's jumps I'd have no problem with it. Then why did he spare Satoko's jumps when it's more obvious to notice her flaws?

And I didn't capture those screenshots manually. I use Video to JPG converter and set option "every frame" to all skaters and the different in angle is obvious. But even without that, in the replay I already notice her pre-rotation toe pick already. And I think people in the tech panel should have noticed it better, as they're all specialist.

My conclusion is that the tech panel was too lenient, and Shin Amano is not strict and not even consistent. I don't know his reasons. Why he didn't call Satoko as he did to Mao? Maybe he spared Satoko because JSF couldn't afford to lose 3 spots at Worlds for ladies? When it was Mao's time, even though he was strict to her, they didn't have to worry about that 3 spots.

I shall give them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps in that short time frame they didn't really have our privilege of conversion and observation and watching every frame. Satoko also rotates much faster than Mao, so I guess it was harder to spot while for Mao, you can even see it in real time without the slow-mo. So I wouldn't fault them too much for letting go of what looks like borderline under their condition. What I disagree with is really in the GOE awarded for Satoko's jumps, they should be mostly 0 across the board. Otherwise, I am mostly ok for the BV although I think the 3F can arguably be dinged.

 

[hippomoomin]

I really don't like Rika's posture, but I like her much more than Satoko. Yes, Satoko moves her body well, but her level of musicality is not better than the other top lady skaters. Looking at her age and the fact Asians generally get growth spurt (vertically or horizontally) later, I won't be surprised if she loose her jumps in three years. Thinking even Liza had her down time, and Lip is coping with her issues. JSF may be promoting the wrong person.

 

[sabinfire]

I really don't like Rika's posture...

Not picking on your comment in particular, but I've heard this line about Rika's "posture" so many times and it's really strange. Is this ballet on ice? Should figure skaters practice their routines while balancing a book on their heads?

 

[skatefan17]

I'm not an intensely observant figure skating fan, and even I noticed she carries herself strangely. I don't think it should necessarily impact her scores, it's just distracting.

 

[Icey]

The British commentators also have almost nothing but praise for Kovtun. Just saying... they're positive to anyone.

With regard to Gracie, one of them said something to the effect that it used to be WHEN Gracie would fulfill her promise, now it was IF she would. Also, mentioned her distractions such as the
Taylor Swift episode. I guess he thinks one has to live a monastic life if one wants to get to the top.

 

[Scovies]

Not picking on your comment in particular, but I've heard this line about Rika's "posture" so many times and it's really strange. Is this ballet on ice? Should figure skaters practice their routines while balancing a book on their heads?

Skaters don't need to look like prima ballerinas to be aesthetically pleasing, but Rika does have some issues with hunched shoulders. She's gotten much better about it throughout the year and I'm happy to see the improvement, but that kind of thing does (and should!) affect PCS.

I'm sorry to be so USA-centric in my posts, but I think Ashley and Gracie are good examples of skaters who don't have a balletic aesthetic but still have nice posture, graceful arms, and a good level of polish on all their movements. Do they approach the beauty of Michelle or Sasha? No, but they make a point of extending their knees and pointing/turning out their toes, which is more than I can say for a lot of top skaters these days. Poor Megan Duhamel has caught a lot of flak around here recently, and a lot of it for BS reasons (because seriously, 1) she's lovely, and 2) she's in amazing physical shape), but her lack of extension and polish deserves the criticism it gets, no matter how awesome her triple lutz or throw quad is.

 

[begin]

Not picking on your comment in particular, but I've heard this line about Rika's "posture" so many times and it's really strange. Is this ballet on ice? Should figure skaters practice their routines while balancing a book on their heads?

It's not strange at all. Posture/arms/carriage are the basics of any movement. A hunch as bad as Hongo's is a very legitimate weakness in skating.

 

[Globetrotter]

It's not strange at all. Posture/arms/carriage are the basics of any movement. A hunch as bad as Hongo's is a very legitimate weakness in skating.

Hmm and it appears that style, carriage and unison are things that are considered in assessing the PE component of PCS. Bad posture = lower PE scores?

 

[sabinfire]

It's not strange at all. Posture/arms/carriage are the basics of any movement. A hunch as bad as Hongo's is a very legitimate weakness in skating.

People have different postures. There is no 'correct' way, unless you are using a posture that is seriously detrimental to your long-term physical health.

Care to elaborate on the "very legitimate weakness in figure skating" point? Is there a mark for posture, or a GOE awarded for this? Evidently, posture does not currently count for much (or at all) in figure skating, as Rika has been incredibly consistent/successful in competition this season... even a threat to the podium at Worlds right now.

As far as Ashley and Gracie having 'good posture and graceful arms'... well, how far has that gotten them when they can't execute the fundamental elements of figure skating? (There is nothing graceful about falling on the ice, popping jumps, bad landings, etc.) Those are of a much bigger concern to get corrected for the competitive figure skating sport.

 

[begin]

People have different postures. There is no 'correct' way, unless you are using a posture that is seriously detrimental to your long-term physical health.

Care to elaborate on the "very legitimate weakness in figure skating" point? Is there a mark for posture, or a GOE awarded for this? Evidently, posture does not currently count for much (or at all) in figure skating, as Rika has been incredibly consistent/successful in competition this season... even a threat to the podium at Worlds right now.

As far as Ashley and Gracie having 'good posture and graceful arms'... well, how far has that gotten them when they can't execute the fundamental elements of figure skating? (There is nothing graceful about falling on the ice, popping jumps, bad landings, etc.) Those are of a much bigger concern to get corrected for the competitive figure skating sport.

I really don't understand why you find requiring these skills so offending. Obviously nice posture isn't a necessity or reality in every person's life but figure skating doesn't serve every form in the world. There are actual 'artistic' standards to aim for. Maybe the system doesn't foster these basics but they're an important component of interpretation and the backbone of quality performances. Sure, there is probably some exceptional person in the world whose hunched backed wouldn't detract from their skating. But for Hongo and the majority, 'good posture' and 'good lines' are an important step to bring them to their best.

You are right though, in that the scores often don't reflect all this stuff. I don't know if you've noticed but the IJS doesn't align with a lot of people's ideas of good figure skating (which don't stop at what competition results say, either).

TL;DR the jumps are not everything. I'm sure a lot of people don't consider them the fundamental elements of figure skating.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The top 7 here should all be commended. They did very good jobs!

It's just too bad, though, that the sport isn't enforcing more musical and creative skating. We have Tuktamysheva doing a great show of jumping and even giving a rather evocative performance at times, but then doing a hideous flying sit spin, a forced layback, and unnecessary footwork movements that detract from the flow. There's no reason why her flying sit couldn't just be a single fast position with a nice back and straight free leg. Doing that well is difficult and it looks FAR better. Same with the layback. And the footwork sequence could instead be two separate sequences with distinct movements and speed, not just this one long series of random loops and rockers.

The whole picture needs to be in place for people to be fully transported and inspired. None of these performances are really on the level of watching a great singer or dancer or actor. It really could be, though. There's no reason why a million people on facebook shouldn't be posting about this wonderful Russian skater they just saw perform at the World Championships.