2018 Worlds Ladies Short Program

[kevinVchicago]

You know nothing about skating if you don't understand why Caro is scored the way she is.

Wow, okay. [emoji23]

 

[crazydreamer]

The message - skaters, don't kill yourselves on the ice, don't break your bones, don't spend days and nights training the most difficult jumps, unique combos and quads... grow old enough, become a woman, hire Lorry to get a slow elegant touching program and get your +3 for easy jumps and 10 for interpretation. Overall you will still get more points than the one under 20 with difficult TES.
Because music interpretation and mature body is what counts when we talk about Ladies figure skating. Noone cares that you can do the most difficult content late in the program. The judges and audience in goldenskate care for maturity not for achievements.
I feel sorry not only for Alina, I feel sorry for every single lady who has 3 lutz 3 t and gets left behind by DIVINE Kostner.
I am fine with Alina's low score today, I am in no way fine with Alina's clean jumps and spins getting lower GOE than Karo. Osmond scored 78 for a more difficult sp in the Olys. I don't get it.
If you're older, you can fall, underrotate, you still deserve to win because you are mature.
I really hope Karo leaves and her ridiculous scores will end here.

It's funny, you act like the judges made the technical score irrelevant in this SP, but when you look at the actual facts, there is less than a 1 pt total difference between 1st and 2nd at the moment, and also between the technical scores. So what you are actually arguing is that PCS should not exist and that in NO situation whatsoever should anyone be able to make up even a 1 pt difference in technical scores by being graceful and having good choreography.

Moreover, the judging balance between technical/performance elements has been completely, flagrantly the opposite of what you describe for at least three years, so until there is any kind of pattern to what you describe (in a single competition--this one is not over--let alone a season), the derisiveness in this post feels unwarranted and hyperbolic.

Finally, it is clear from the detailed scores that Alina could have held off Carolina's vastly superior choreography and performance simply by not struggling through her difficult 3-3. If it's all about "achievements" and "kill[ing] yourself on the ice," to the sacrifice of all else, well then, you actually have to achieve those jumps and make all that effort worth it in competition, or you can't complain....

 

[Ares]

Also: let me cheer for Loena Hendrickx from Belgium who's in top 10 after SP :thumbsup: :agree: And I was happy to find out that Dasa Grm made it through.

 

[kevinVchicago]

So what you are actually arguing is that PCS should not exist and that in NO situation whatsoever should anyone be able to make up even a 1 pt difference in technical scores by being graceful and having good choreography.

I feel like the root of a lot of misunderstanding between fans is that physical grace is often thought to be synonymous with artistry. I'm not sure what you think, but in my opinion physical grace is more technical than artistic.

Moreover, the judging balance between technical/performance elements has been completely, flagrantly the opposite of what you describe for at least three years, so until there is any kind of pattern to what you describe (in a single competition--this one is not over--let alone a season), the derisiveness in this post feels unwarranted and hyperbolic.

Although the trend may be more in favor of skaters with high TES as opposed to high PCS, there's a concurrent trend (I mean on the forum) which disparages artistry that differs stylistically from artistry typical of skaters such as Kostner. I'm thinking specifically of Medvedeva and Zagitova, although their styles differ from each other as well. I find this trend to be disturbing and strange, but I know that figure skating (like theater) is a conservative form from an artistic standpoint. (A cursory glance at the choreographers' music choices will be enough to prove that point.)

That being said, I think that the other forum member is referring specifically to Carolina. For some of us, her scores have been frustrating over the last two seasons, especially when extremely high PCS are given for seriously subpar performances. So, it may seem like hyperbole but from another point of view, it can feel like a never-ending riddle. Caro is also a huge sentimental favorite, so for those of us who feel she is overscored it can feel a bit like there's an avalanche of pressure to just shut up about it already. [emoji23]

Anyway, personally I respect her as an iconic legend of the sport, and I thought she gave her best performance of the last two seasons yesterday. Although Zagitova was better in my opinion, Caro was excellent. The tech was (at long last) in place, and that completed the picture for me.

 

[Ares]

Carolina should definitely be ahead and deserves her score, but as you see the home inflation was obvious. Alina's PCS who normally would have gotten OGM bonus went down, so did Katelyn's. And Satoko finally gets an UR!

Carolina with three major mistakes in the long will probably beat a clean but under-rotating Satoko, a clean-ish but not perfect Katelyn, and everyone else in the field squeaky clean except Alina.

Or maybe it had more to do with her lacking ''fire'' as to speak that was there in Pyeong Chang? She still was overmarked in PCS, higher than Satoko ... ?

Zagitova is a nice skater, but if you take aside her difficult jumps, one particularly beautiful spin and crammed transitions in my eyes she's actually in most PCS much more like ... Anne Line Gjersem (Norway) who only finished 33rd than like Satoko or Carolina when they are on. The difference is striking.

 

[Skater Boy]

I wonder if Osmond will withdraw. She apparently was seen getting treatment my friend said. Does anyoneknow how she is doing. It certainly doesn't sound good for a medal for her. Satoko won't want to lose that medal now. And any hope open for another medal is gone with Carolina in first. Even if she bombs they will hold her up especially in Italy so yet again a bunch of skaters are fighting for one medal. Sad indeed. Satoko looks good; Alina certainly wasn't as fluid as we have seen but still reasonable despite the error. I do give Caro credit for the 3F 3T but her transitions well leave a lot to be desired. The Chinese and Koreans not really a factor. But watch out for Bradie Tennell and Mirai. They really could shake things up. Looks good for Russia, Japan and maybe Canada and US for three spots. Like in pairs though the scores after the top two are very close.

 

[colormyworld240]

Or maybe it had more to do with her lacking ''fire'' as to speak that was there in Pyeong Chang? She still was overmarked in PCS, higher than Satoko ... ?

Zagitova is a nice skater, but if you take aside her difficult jumps, one particularly beautiful spin and crammed transitions in my eyes she's actually in most PCS much more like ... Anne Line Gjersem (Norway) who only finished 33rd than like Satoko or Carolina when they are on. The difference is striking.

I agree with the placements today, obviously Carolina was extraordinary. However, I think Alina does deserve her high PCS, at least for her performance in the Olympics, maybe not so much here but I don't think she would be ranked the same as Gjersem. Alina lacks excellent skating skills, but her transition mark should be very high. The last three criteria are quite subjective but I don't understand how you think she doesn't interpret or perform well; she does this program with plenty of emotion and the movements are in time with the music. Again, less so here than the Olympics. What do you suggest for better interpretation? The movements quick as they are match the pace of the music and the frantic theme of Black Swan.

 

[colormyworld240]

What she's going through? Poor girl? She's having the time of her life, getting all these assignments for doing the absolute least. What about what poor Polina, Stasya Gubanova, and Anna are going through?

I hope you're not speaking of Alina. She certainly does not get the assignments for doing the absolute least, as a matter of fact I think she is one of those that do the most. Eteri's girls train the highest number of hours of all Russian skaters and have the most strict diets. On top of that Alina is the only one living without parents for figure skating, which is no excuse or anything, but that is not easy or "doing the absolute least". Of course, all this is necessary to be the best in a competitive country. And yes it sucks that Polina and Anna have injuries, but Alina has also had injuries in the past. But that doesn't factor into if you do the most or least; just because you have injuries doesn't mean that you're doing "more". And of course it sucks for Gubanova, but that also doesn't mean she's doing "more" just because her fed was stupid to not give her a worlds spot. Gubanova not getting selected for junior worlds doesn't have anything to do with Alina at all, so I'm not sure why this comparison is even made.

 

[Lester]

I loved Konstantinova's performance (minus the two horrendous tanos), such speed, energy and performance quality. I'd say she's much more enjoyable to watch than Alina for instance (I like Alina but watching her skate is like hard work because she never holds any position and seems to think through each move). I heard from TAT that she rarely performs her SP cleanly but I hope to see more of her in the future, such a breath of fresh air.

Those tanos though. Not only do they not deserve + GOE but I wonder how any coach can let their student showcase such ugliness. They are almost worse than Sotskova's.

 

[VenusHalley]

Until ISU imposes negative GOE for ugly tanos we will see many many helicopter themed performances.

I like well done tanos which look like the skater grabs an invisible rope and gracefully spins on it... but helicopters belong to airport not on ice

 

[YagsFan]

Glad to see that some of you enjoyed Dasa Grm's skate. I've never seen her before, but was very impressed with her; especially her expression I kept track in my head of the number finishing below her until I was sure she'd make the cut. lol!

 

[[email protected]]

Completely off, by reading the internets, i just realized that Mishin should really hope Caro does not win.

Basically, in Russia, some coaches, such as Eteri and Mishin, get funded by state ($$$ and free ice time, for instance). So, unlike someone like Orser, who can have business relationships just fine with foreign skaters, Mishin can be in a rather weird situation as he is paid and supported by Russia, and then he coaches foreign skaters who can beat russian skaters. Actually there are some nasty comments already on this, on the line "we pay him with our taxes, and he coaches skaters who steal spots from our skaters".

Actually, Eteri is probably quite smart in not wanting to coach top foreign skater, patriotism aside.

Mishin is 77 years old. I don't think he cares about comments from whomever. The only real thing could be the direct restriction by the state. But no matter what some say, Russia is not that kind of country. Another thing is Caro is not just a skater. She is the last legend and she is an inconsistent legend. If she wins here there will be good positive vibes how superior Russian coaching school in ladies is.

And wins Caro or not, so far there are no worries about Russia's 3 spots even without Medvedeva.

 

[Mirunna]

The message - skaters, don't kill yourselves on the ice, don't break your bones, don't spend days and nights training the most difficult jumps, unique combos and quads... grow old enough, become a woman, hire Lorry to get a slow elegant touching program and get your +3 for easy jumps and 10 for interpretation. Overall you will still get more points than the one under 20 with difficult TES.
Because music interpretation and mature body is what counts when we talk about Ladies figure skating. Noone cares that you can do the most difficult content late in the program. The judges and audience in goldenskate care for maturity not for achievements.
I feel sorry not only for Alina, I feel sorry for every single lady who has 3 lutz 3 t and gets left behind by DIVINE Kostner.
I am fine with Alina's low score today, I am in no way fine with Alina's clean jumps and spins getting lower GOE than Karo. Osmond scored 78 for a more difficult sp in the Olys. I don't get it.
If you're older, you can fall, underrotate, you still deserve to win because you are mature.
I really hope Karo leaves and her ridiculous scores will end here.

I read this post multiple times and I still can't believe it. Let me break it:

"skaters, don't kill yourselves on the ice, don't break your bones" - I fail to find something wrong with this.
"don't spend days and nights training the most difficult jumps, unique combos and quads... grow old enough, become a woman" - same as above. What is the correct advice? Train days and nights, starve yourself for a very short term success, delay puberty as much as possible and try to squeeze quads after quads. And also, did I mention starving yourself? You will be useless as an athlete after 20 years old anyway so destroy your body now and win some medals now before you are yesterday's story?. Also, your post is not correct - when Caro was Alina's age, she was landing every combo possible, including 3Lz-3Loop. Look it up if you don't believe me. I can't wait to see Alina landing 3-3 combos at 31 years of age.
"hire Lorry to get a slow elegant touching program and get your +3 for easy jumps and 10 for interpretation". I fail to see how 3F-3T, 3L and 2A are easy jumps. Medvedeva broke world records with this layout.
"Because music interpretation and mature body is what counts when we talk about Ladies figure skating. Noone cares that you can do the most difficult content late in the program. The judges and audience in goldenskate care for maturity not for achievements." - PCS is 1/2 of the total score. This is the sport, it's simple as it is. It is not only be a jumping contest. It's not aboute "mature bodies". It's about getting better by improving yourself as a skater and performer, which comes with time. Carolina was winning medals when Alina was born. Her longevity allowed her to develop to the skater she is today, and the is masterful at what she does best. And she is rewarded for it. PCS is not (or should not be) related to the difficulty of the jumps performed.

To me, Carolina's career should be an example for all the young ladies currently competing. She shows that: you don't need to be anorexic to land the jumps, you need good technique. She is the living proof since she is landing 3-3 at 31 years old. Second, the love she has for the sport is inspiring - she shows were resilience and never giving up gets you. A bad season (or a couple of bad seasons) / bad Olympics are not the end of the world. She also inspires skaters to work and improve on stroking / skating skills: many, many young Russian ladies have pointed out Kostner for that particular qualities and want to improve on that aspect as well.
How is Julia's story more inspiring, for example? An amazing talent forced into early retirement following an eating disorder? Is that a positive message?

 

[FSGMT]

I'm joining the discussion late, but I just want to confirm that live in the Arena Alina's loop definitely looked under-rotated, and the video replay just confirms it. So, if there was someone overscored it was doubtlessly her.

 

[Jaana]

Feeling very happy for our Viveca L., a clean sp & PB, WOW!!!

Kostner was fantastic, that was a true artistic performance and faultless, too! Zagitova was great also, but it was unfortunate for her that she had to skate immediately after Kostner. The word art did not come into my mind at all as I watched Zagitova´s performance, it felt small.

The technical panel was harsh, but that is the way it should be at every competition, because that is fair towards those skaters who are able to rotate all their jumps, etc.

All in all I would say this was a great competition with very few falls, suprising after the Olympics. Hopefully the men will manage that, too...

You are right when you say Alina is not holding positions long enough. She is 15! Come on!

That is the fault of the choreographer, IMO.

 

[Globetrotter]

I agree with the placements today, obviously Carolina was extraordinary. However, I think Alina does deserve her high PCS, at least for her performance in the Olympics, maybe not so much here but I don't think she would be ranked the same as Gjersem. Alina lacks excellent skating skills, but her transition mark should be very high. The last three criteria are quite subjective but I don't understand how you think she doesn't interpret or perform well; she does this program with plenty of emotion and the movements are in time with the music. Again, less so here than the Olympics. What do you suggest for better interpretation? The movements quick as they are match the pace of the music and the frantic theme of Black Swan.

Not really. She performs movements but it is obvious she does not really feel the music and is literally skating through rather than to the music. In Pyeongchang, she was at least getting her timing right. Here after missing the combo, her timing was a bit off and she was visibly lagging and "catching up" to the music instead and her transitions were a lot more rushed as a result. As such, the sheer quantity of transition should not translate to high scores due to poorer quality. Sorry but I don't see how rushed movements and skating through the music deserves high IN and CO marks. At least in Pyeongchang, she was in sync. That she still scored higher PCS than an exquisite interpretation from Satoko or to a lesser extent, Kaetlyn is in my mind really confusing.

 

[Globetrotter]

Mishin is 77 years old. I don't think he cares about comments from whomever. The only real thing could be the direct restriction by the state. But no matter what some say, Russia is not that kind of country. Another thing is Caro is not just a skater. She is the last legend and she is an inconsistent legend. If she wins here there will be good positive vibes how superior Russian coaching school in ladies is.

And wins Caro or not, so far there are no worries about Russia's 3 spots even without Medvedeva.

I doubt that Russia as a whole will really mind since CaroK probably is paying on her own rather than the Russian State. And if we look back overall, I do sense that the Russian audience and even the Russian skaters themselves do like CaroK's classical style and lines. And Russian judges certainly were willing to score her high. If anything, she is a good case example of how proper basic technique is what allows a skater to be have competitive longevity.

 

[Lester]

Not really. She performs movements but it is obvious she does not really feel the music and is literally skating through rather than to the music. In Pyeongchang, she was at least getting her timing right. Here after missing the combo, her timing was a bit off and she was visibly lagging and "catching up" to the music instead and her transitions were a lot more rushed as a result. As such, the sheer quantity of transition should not translate to high scores due to poorer quality. Sorry but I don't see how rushed movements and skating through the music deserves high IN and CO marks. At least in Pyeongchang, she was in sync. That she still scored higher PCS than an exquisite interpretation from Satoko or to a lesser extent, Kaetlyn is in my mind really confusing.

Maybe if her programs were less crammed with stuff and the choreo was allowed to breathe she could showcase some real musical movement. For now it is a rush to complete everything.

 

[Ares]

I read this post multiple times and I still can't believe it. Let me break it:

"skaters, don't kill yourselves on the ice, don't break your bones" - I fail to find something wrong with this.
"don't spend days and nights training the most difficult jumps, unique combos and quads... grow old enough, become a woman" - same as above. What is the correct advice? Train days and nights, starve yourself for a very short term success, delay puberty as much as possible and try to squeeze quads after quads. And also, did I mention starving yourself? You will be useless as an athlete after 20 years old anyway so destroy your body now and win some medals now before you are yesterday's story?. Also, your post is not correct - when Caro was Alina's age, she was landing every combo possible, including 3Lz-3Loop. Look it up if you don't believe me. I can't wait to see Alina landing 3-3 combos at 31 years of age.
"hire Lorry to get a slow elegant touching program and get your +3 for easy jumps and 10 for interpretation". I fail to see how 3F-3T, 3L and 2A are easy jumps. Medvedeva broke world records with this layout.
"Because music interpretation and mature body is what counts when we talk about Ladies figure skating. Noone cares that you can do the most difficult content late in the program. The judges and audience in goldenskate care for maturity not for achievements." - PCS is 1/2 of the total score. This is the sport, it's simple as it is. It is not only be a jumping contest. It's not aboute "mature bodies". It's about getting better by improving yourself as a skater and performer, which comes with time. Carolina was winning medals when Alina was born. Her longevity allowed her to develop to the skater she is today, and the is masterful at what she does best. And she is rewarded for it. PCS is not (or should not be) related to the difficulty of the jumps performed.

To me, Carolina's career should be an example for all the young ladies currently competing. She shows that: you don't need to be anorexic to land the jumps, you need good technique. She is the living proof since she is landing 3-3 at 31 years old. Second, the love she has for the sport is inspiring - she shows were resilience and never giving up gets you. A bad season (or a couple of bad seasons) / bad Olympics are not the end of the world. She also inspires skaters to work and improve on stroking / skating skills: many, many young Russian ladies have pointed out Kostner for that particular qualities and want to improve on that aspect as well.
How is Julia's story more inspiring, for example? An amazing talent forced into early retirement following an eating disorder? Is that a positive message?

That part "I am fine with Alina's low score" made me giggle and I stopped reading that codswallop. 79+ is low? Lol.

I agree with everything written by you in this reply.

Some people apparently lost their mind, but then ... ISU definitely helps in losing your sanity. Their brainwashing sadly works (+ some dishonest commentators).

 

[Globetrotter]

That part "I am fine with Alina's low score" made me giggle and I stopped reading that codswallop. 79+ is low? Lol.

I agree with everything written by you in this reply.

Well, there are a couple of vocal minorities on this forum that are adding colours to our mundane existence