2022 U.S. Nationals: Men's Short Program

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So...transition Mark's are judged based on how many each does? They keep track of the number a skater is doing and is supposed to award the one who does the most the highest number or something? From a judge's explanation on how he awarded transition marks, my understanding was that a skater was merely judged against his own piece of music, making sure transitions fit and that they were being done when the music called for them.

Also, when both skate cleanly, Yuzuru typically scores a little more in PCS anyway, doesn't he? IMO, there isn't that drastic of a difference in PCS amongst the top skaters of the world. Just gonna be honest with my thoughts here. I think it is made a bigger deal than it is because it's really the only area where Yuzuru has an advantage over Nathan and some are unhappy the gap there isn't bigger simply because Nathan has such a huge advantage over everyone else in his consistency and TES.

A lot of things go into transitions, including the quality of a transition.

For example, this is a great quality exit transition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUeIvl9uWc#t=57s
And this is a mediocre quality exit transition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUeIvl9uWc#t=1m25s

Honestly though given how Chen lands his jumps, it's not THAT hard for him to throw in a spread eagle or a double three for the heck of it. Like that 4F, he could have added anything to the end of it. I feel like he's just trolling people who emphasize jump exit transitions, even though they have little value in the current system and the key transitions are entry. Far too many skaters "cover up" bad landings with hasty/poorly executed transitions, which are seemingly added as an afterthought just to rack up more points, so I'm actually glad they changed the rules.

I swear, if I had Nathan's ability, after I landed my quads, I would literally grab my free foot, raise it up like a spiral, then maintaining the RBO edge do a duo of RBO-RFI-RBO brackets, into a falling leaf, and flash a + 5 with my hands to the audience/judges, just to shut people up.

 

[LiamForeman]

Yes, but it meant the US men didn't get 3 instant spots at those Worlds, you guys.

I mean, that's just unforgivable.

It doesn't matter that Vincent redeemed himself and easily got the 3rd spot at Nebelhorn with stellar performances.
It doesn't matter that he has had 4 pretty much clean short programs this season.
It doesn't matter that he's the only person to win a competition against Nathan Chen since the 2018 Olympics.

What everyone needs to be focusing on is the SP failure that happened 10 months.

Why are people praising him!?!?! Augh!

I personally am willing to give a skater some BOTD that their performance at a world level competition during the Covid crisis and being off the ice for months might not be an accurate reflection of their competitive ability for the rest of their career. I understand that some feel much differently, but that is really just their own issue/s. Good luck to Vincent!

 

[badknees]

No but Vincent failing to make the freeskate meant that the US men didn't immediately get the spot at those Worlds.

People NEED to remember his SP at 2021 Worlds until the end of time, no matter how well he skates in the course of his career!!!!

While we're at it, can we please also dwell on how in 2018 Worlds Vincent failed to do well enough to secure 3 spots, and the US team had to be saved by a certain beloved skater -- who constantly got hosed throughout his career, mind you!

It's essential that nobody forgets about Zhou's past failures, and shouldn't get hung up on how well he's been doing this season.



(p.s. Every jumping pass in Vincent's SP deserved a < call and negative GOE, and the tech panel/judges are clearly out to lunch.)
(p.p.s. #JusticeForMax)

Does this also mean that people should ignore everything Nathan has ever done and just remember his failure at the 2018 Olympics?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Does this also mean that people should ignore everything Nathan has ever done and just remember his failure at the 2018 Olympics?

Absolutely! Never mind his 3 world titles and brilliant, record-setting skates over the years. Or the fact that he won the LP in the 2018 Olympics.

We need to definitely all focus on the bad and tear him down for something that occurred 4 whole years ago.

 

[pianistliz]

So...transition marks are judged based on how many each does? They keep track of the number a skater is doing and is supposed to award the one who does the most the highest number or something? From a judge's explanation on how he awarded transition marks, my understanding was that a skater was merely judged against his own piece of music, making sure transitions fit and that they were being done when the music called for them.

Also, when both skate cleanly, Yuzuru typically scores a little more in PCS anyway, doesn't he? IMO, there isn't that drastic of a difference in PCS amongst the top skaters of the world. Just gonna be honest with my thoughts here. I think it is made a bigger deal than it is because it's really the only area where Yuzuru has an advantage over Nathan and some are unhappy the gap there isn't bigger simply because Nathan has such a huge advantage over everyone else in his consistency and TES.

Well, usfigureskating.org describes the Transition mark as "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movement and holds that link all elements." I was thinking that sounds like the more varied and intricate moves you include in the program, the better, since it's all about showing off your skill, and varied/intricate footwork certainly shows off skill and take more practice than crossovers. I also thought the choreography of Eteri's girls was known for including as many positions and movements as possible throughout their programs to help get them high PCS. I may be mistaken, that's just how I always understood it.
I also have lots of thoughts about GOEs but don't feel like getting into it right now. Nathan did awesome today, and while I personally feel he could work on a couple things, he is fantastic both technically and artistically. La Boheme is one of my favorite SPs of his, I'm glad he brought it back, and it was a privilege to watch so many guys slay it today!

 

[SaDa]

I'm not a Vincent fan, but I think people are being way too harsh on him. Yes, he screwed up...but he went and earned the third spot back. His skating, overall, has improved this year, so clearly he's working hard and putting in effort to prove himself to everyone. Let's just be glad we have such a strong US men's team, guys, and not fight, yeah?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm not a Vincent fan, but I think people are being way too harsh on him. Yes, he screwed up...but he went and earned the third spot back. His skating, overall, has improved this year, so clearly he's working hard and putting in effort to prove himself to everyone. Let's just be glad we have such a strong US men's team, guys, and not fight, yeah?

Hah this was all said tongue-in-cheek SaDa. I'm very proud of Vincent and glad he's continuing to show up the naysayers.

 

[mrrice]

It's already on the front page here in Ca.

Chen wins short program at US figure skating championhips

 

[Dpbthomas1]

Yeah, I thought none of the medalists were clean in 2014.

I definitely remember a competition where Yuzu fell on one jump and then stumbled on a couple of others.
?? Maybe the 2019 4CC - where Jason was in 1st after SP and Yuzuru in 2nd?

 

[cl2]

Well, usfigureskating.org describes the Transition mark as "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movement and holds that link all elements." I was thinking that sounds like the more varied and intricate moves you include in the program, the better, since it's all about showing off your skill, and varied/intricate footwork certainly shows off skill and take more practice than crossovers. I also thought the choreography of Eteri's girls was known for including as many positions and movements as possible throughout their programs to help get them high PCS. I may be mistaken, that's just how I always understood it.
I also have lots of thoughts about GOEs but don't feel like getting into it right now. Nathan did awesome today, and while I personally feel he could work on a couple things, he is fantastic both technically and artistically. La Boheme is one of my favorite SPs of his, I'm glad he brought it back, and it was a privilege to watch so many guys slay it today!

Yes, the Transition mark is broken down into four sub-criteria, Continuity, Variety, Difficulty, Quality. (CVDQ is how I memorize it, rolls off the tongue smoothly.)

Crossovers are transitions, but not very difficult. Yet, if you do GORGEOUS crossovers, it will still have a positive impact on your Transition mark via the Quality criteria.

Split jumps are more difficult, but if you do 5 split jumps in your program and nothing else, you miss out on the Variety criteria. Additionally, if your 5 split jumps are poorly done, that's also a ding on the Quality. And if you constantly "zone out" of your program or telegraph when going into elements, you could lose the Continuity criteria.

Difficult transitions are more than choreographic moves (split jumps, spirals, spread edges, etc.) Difficult transitions also include difficult steps and turns (counters, rockers, twizzles, etc.) and multi-directional, not just your dominant rotational direction. Difficult steps and turns are often overlooked by audiences, because they are not "showy", but judges are trained to watch out for those as well.

 

[pianistliz]

Yes, the Transition mark is broken down into four sub-criteria, Continuity, Variety, Difficulty, Quality. (CVDQ is how I memorize it, rolls off the tongue smoothly.)

Crossovers are transitions, but not very difficult. Yet, if you do GORGEOUS crossovers, it will still have a positive impact on your Transition mark via the Quality criteria.

Split jumps are more difficult, but if you do 5 split jumps in your program and nothing else, you miss out on the Variety criteria. Additionally, if your 5 split jumps are poorly done, that's also a ding on the Quality. And if you constantly "zone out" of your program or telegraph when going into elements, you could lose the Continuity criteria.

Difficult transitions are more than choreographic moves (split jumps, spirals, spread edges, etc.) Difficult transitions also include difficult steps and turns (counters, rockers, twizzles, etc.) and multi-directional, not just your dominant rotational direction. Difficult steps and turns are often overlooked by audiences, because they are not "showy", but judges are trained to watch out for those as well.

Thanks for the detail!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, the Transition mark is broken down into four sub-criteria, Continuity, Variety, Difficulty, Quality. (CVDQ is how I memorize it, rolls off the tongue smoothly.)

Crossovers are transitions, but not very difficult. Yet, if you do GORGEOUS crossovers, it will still have a positive impact on your Transition mark via the Quality criteria.

Split jumps are more difficult, but if you do 5 split jumps in your program and nothing else, you miss out on the Variety criteria. Additionally, if your 5 split jumps are poorly done, that's also a ding on the Quality. And if you constantly "zone out" of your program or telegraph when going into elements, you could lose the Continuity criteria.

Difficult transitions are more than choreographic moves (split jumps, spirals, spread edges, etc.) Difficult transitions also include difficult steps and turns (counters, rockers, twizzles, etc.) and multi-directional, not just your dominant rotational direction. Difficult steps and turns are often overlooked by audiences, because they are not "showy", but judges are trained to watch out for those as well.

Thanks for this! Far too many people think transitions is a numbers game or only focus on what happens before and after jumps. Yes more transitions are great but ones that are purposeful, creative, done well (on secure, clear, deep edges) and not just done for the heck of it are much more effective and judge-friendly.

 

[cl2]

Thanks for this! Far too many people think transitions is a numbers game or only focus on what happens before and after jumps. Yes more transitions are great but ones that are purposeful, creative, done well (on secure, clear, deep edges) and not just done for the heck of it are much more effective and judge-friendly.

Yep. Though, the purposefulness and "not just for the heck of it" part is more likely to be factored into the Composition or Performance marks instead.

 

[skatesofgold]

I definitely remember a competition where Yuzu fell on one jump and then stumbled on a couple of others.
?? Maybe the 2019 4CC - where Jason was in 1st after SP and Yuzuru in 2nd?

So I looked at the protocols from the men's free during the 2014 Olympics and Yuzu had negative GOE on three jumps, including the full -3 on his 4S at the very beginning. Patrick Chan also had negative GOE on three jumps. while Denis Ten had negative GOE on two.

 

[Greengemmonster]

I swear, if I had Nathan's ability, after I landed my quads, I would literally grab my free foot, raise it up like a spiral, then maintaining the RBO edge do a duo of RBO-RFI-RBO brackets, into a falling leaf, and flash a + 5 with my hands to the audience/judges, just to shut people up.

I almost died imagining Nathan do an Eteri/Danni G leg grab/kick!!!

I would pay all the money to see it!!!!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I almost died imagining Nathan do an Eteri/Danni G leg grab/kick!!!

I would pay all the money to see it!!!!

Nothing says "Look at me I'm in complete control of my exit edge, and deserve even more marks for this jump" than grabbing your free foot with the opposite hand and pointlessly yanking it up for 0.05 seconds in a Biellmann position! Get that GOE gurl!

 

[Mathman]

I think that to the average fan a simple smooth exit edge held for an extra second or two is the mmost impressive demononstration of "I.ve got this!" Any embellishmernts jiust look like balance checks to save the landing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think that to the average fan a simple smooth exit edge held for an extra second or two is the mmost impressive demononstration of "I.ve got this!" Any embellishmernts jiust look like balance checks to save the landing.

I think it's kind of odd to laud a spread eagle as an exit transition. It's probably the only transition I can think of where it's actually considered harder for putting your free foot down on a landing. Yes it can look very lovely (like Hanyu's 4S) and impressive after a big element (like Malinin's 4Z today or Chen's 4Z at Worlds), but you're literally putting your other foot down and transferring weight onto it, instead of staying on your landing foot. There have been quite a few times I've seen skaters "save" a jump landing or stabilize themselves by doing an outside spread eagle or besti squat... and it's like, good coverup, but everyone knows what you did there.

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

This thread might've devolved faster than the Russian Nationals ones... impressive.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I wish I could see the world through the eyes of judge #7, perfection everywhere.