Define Lambiel’s coaching style

[Anna K.]

I'm well aware what Stephane has done over the decades. You're conflating choreography with skating skills, individual style and body movement that is frequently identifiable from skater to skater. A song is not a singer, nor does it control the identifiable tone of a voice. A program is not a skater nor does it control the identifiable style of skating in an individual.

Unfortunately you may be right. My knowledge about skating is minimal.
Would you, please, explain to me the difference? When I see a routine, how can I avoid conflating them?

 

[Skater Boy]

moving along while your student is performing is actually just showing how invested a coach is in the well-being of his students.... the coach simply wants the student to do so well and goes through the routine with the student... it's far from being narcissistic.. it's the opposite.

Please tell me this is a joke. Because you are saying things about a coach that you do not know personally. He is not a narcissist, and many coaches dance along and move with their students performances other than Lambiel. Every coach is different and I have seen/know coaches/choreographers that move more than Lambiel when watching skater perform, it doesn't make them a bad person/coach. So please enough of this nonsense.

I am trying to be clear but failing Lambiel was NOT swaying to the music during a performance It was in the back before Shomo went out with his group. I tried to make it clear in prep for comments like this but failed. I didnt say he was a bad person. He had that look that my music teacher had when he sang with our group. People in the audience said that teacher looked like he wanted to sing and take over the stage. Anyways it was just an observation. I should have guessed I would be lambasted. to be clear he was NOT NOT NOT dancing swaying moving to the music, to anyones program. he even did an on land jump. It is natural for athletes now coaches trying to relive their glory days.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I am trying to be clear but failing Lambiel was NOT swaying to the music during a performance It was in the back before Shomo went out with his group. I tried to make it clear in prep for comments like this but failed. I didnt say he was a bad person. He had that look that my music teacher had when he sang with our group. People in the audience said that teacher looked like he wanted to sing and take over the stage. Anyways it was just an observation. I should have guessed I would be lambasted. to be clear he was NOT NOT NOT dancing swaying moving to the music, to anyones program. he even did an on land jump. It is natural for athletes now coaches trying to relive their glory days.

It's how they deal with nerves and it's harmless.

 

[rabidline]

I am trying to be clear but failing Lambiel was NOT swaying to the music during a performance It was in the back before Shomo went out with his group. I tried to make it clear in prep for comments like this but failed. I didnt say he was a bad person. He had that look that my music teacher had when he sang with our group. People in the audience said that teacher looked like he wanted to sing and take over the stage. Anyways it was just an observation. I should have guessed I would be lambasted. to be clear he was NOT NOT NOT dancing swaying moving to the music, to anyones program. he even did an on land jump. It is natural for athletes now coaches trying to relive their glory days.

A 15-second backstage footage that only aired on CBC where you can't even see Lambiel's expression clearly?
Here, I'll help with the video.

 

[Arigato]

Looks like Stephane is trying to do a jump done by a dancer in South Korea. Badly.

 

[Anna K.]

Looks like Stephane is trying to do a jump done by a dancer in South Korea. Badly.

Hey, what's the point of making snippy remarks if you don't want to engage in discussion?
I asked you a question above and you failed to answer. So, you still have not convinced me that you know how to tell apart choreography from skating skills, individual style and body movement that is frequently identifiable from skater to skater.
Excuse me, but is your knowledge about figure skating actually much worse than mine?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I loved Lambiel as choreographer for Kolyada with his 2018-19 Muse sp. I think he worked with him in 2017-18 too (and whilst I liked that sp didn't like the FP that year - unsure who choreographed what though).

 

[Anna K.]

It's truly sad that we still miss closer examination of Lambiel's choreography style in this thread, including the impact on his students and other pros and cons. He is one of those coaches who has such so I secretly expected it to be in the center of attention in this thread.

Yes, of course I know that there are more important things going on right now...

 

[rabidline]

It's truly sad that we still miss closer examination of Lambiel's choreography style in this thread, including the impact on his students and other pros and cons. He is one of those coaches who has such so I secretly expected it to be in the center of attention in this thread.

Yes, of course I know that there are more important things going on right now...

Uh... I don't think I'm the best person of this because I'm a fairly new FS fan and has no background in dancing or skating but I will try? If I get some things wrong feel free to fact-check ahahah.

Like other choreographers, I think Stephane is capable of creating great programs and also duds. A previous comment here gave the opinion that his programs are outdated, and I can see where that comes from, because some of his latest and most visible programs for his students have been for warhorse music or old/vintage music, even though that's obviously not the entirety of what he has choreographed.

I think Stephane's choreographic language is very distinct and unique to himself. That adds to the "outdated" impression, because Stephane himself last competed a little more than a decade ago, and seeing the same movements now can make the viewers remember those days when compared to other choreographic styles that came into prominence after his retirement. But it can also be perceived as him having a solid identity as a choreographer that doesn't change but instead adapts to the current system. It's hard to explain it but I think him being a recently retired skater who competed at the very top (I know it's been 12 years, it's still recent okay) made him more "present" in his choreographic works compared to former skaters-turned-choreographers who didn't reach his level when they competed as skaters, but it also works against him, because Stephane's choreographed programs will always be compared to... Stephane. Unlike Benoit Richaud or Daniil Gleikhenhauz, who also competed as skaters but were never that prominent.

Shoma actually gave an interesting here when asked about the difference between Stephane's choreography with others (30:10 onwards, turn the English captions on):

"Pretty much almost all skaters would say this, that of course they would be able to deliver a good performance with coach Stephane Lambiel's choreography, but when the choreo is performed by Stephane himself, it is really amazing. When someone else does it, they would feel that it is very difficult, so in order for me to catch up, I will try my best to deliver something as close as possible."

On one hand, I think it's great that Stephane has an unique style as a choreographer, but on the other hand I understand the criticism of "He's choreographing for himself instead of for his skaters." Because with a style this visually distinct, it's easily recognizable as his style and not all skaters will adapt naturally to it. As a Shoma fan I actually think Stephane's choreographic language is a natural enemy of Shoma's raw musicality, because Stephane sometimes will choreograph movements that "cut" through the music, making it sound "less" than it is, instead of movements that "amplify" the music, making it sound "more" than it is. I think the latter showcases Shoma's best qualities as a skater better. But, as a fan who loves to see Shoma grow, I enjoy watching him struggle and try his best to present Stephane's choreography, because I appreciate when skaters know that they're bad at doing a certain choreographic style but they do it nonetheless because that's how I think they can grow, through trial and error.

Shoma's Bolero, especially, is such a difficult program: the poses/choreography are made in a way that visually it would look better with someone with a better body proportions than Shoma, and of course the program itself have to facilitate a 5 quads + 2 3A layout but also somehow be a compelling program. It was helpful for Shoma to win his second Olympic individual medal, but its degree of completion as a program is not there yet for me (Shoma himself has also said something similar to this in post-competition interviews). I don't even know if it's going to be complete at Worlds, but even if it's not, it's been a good challenge.

Not to say Stephane doesn't try to tailor his choreography to skaters, I just think he doesn't do it to the extent of someone like Shae-Lynn Bourne does, really tailoring every individual program to highlight skaters' strengths and hide their weaknesses. With Stephane I feel there is less compromise in terms of style.

Some of my favorite programs from Stephane, when he does classical with Tomoe Kawabata's Blue Danube SP, and Satoko Miyahara's Gnosienne/Metamorphosis EX (later turned to SP). Also for something less classical, Tatsuki Machida's F.U.Y.A. SP is really fun and Koshiro Shimada's Adios SP is great. Stephane also contributed to my favorite program of Papadakis/Cizeron, their Rachel Yamagata FD which I thought was beautiful and full of warmth. Speaking of warmth, a sentimental favorite is of course Shoma's La vie en Rose EX, which is a good example of someone who didn't follow Stephane's choreography to a T but managed to express the program well nonetheless in my opinion. As you can see from the examples, Stephane has quite a wide range of music selections he has choreographed for, but also a distinct style that is only his in all of them. He's definitely a fun choreographer to have in the mix.

Also: I just realized I didn't give a FS example hahaha. But I love Deniss' R&J FS and Tomoe Kawabata's Yumeji's Theme/Sikuriadas FS.

 

[icetug]

Also: I just realized I didn't give a FS example hahaha. But I love Deniss' R&J FS and Tomoe Kawabata's Yumeji's Theme/Sikuriadas FS.

Generally Stephane's choreos for SP are better / better executed /better received by fans. People like Misha's Muse SP but not exactly Presley FS. Camden's Oblivion SP gave him the junior world record, The Last Emperor FS turned out to be too difficult.
I have a feeling that Stephane prefers creating choreo for SP rather than for FS. Actually he choreographed only two Deniss' FS: "The Four Seasons" in 2016 and "The Lotus Feet" in 2019, the other were co-choreographed (e.g. Kateryna Shalkina helped with R&J) or created by other choreographers.

 

[rabidline]

Generally Stephane's choreos for SP are better / better executed /better received by fans. People like Misha's Muse SP but not exactly Presley FS. Camden's Oblivion SP gave him the junior world record, The Last Emperor FS turned out to be too difficult.
I have a feeling that Stephane prefers creating choreo for SP rather than for FS. Actually he choreographed only two Deniss' FS: "The Four Seasons" in 2016 and "The Lotus Feet" in 2019, the other were co-choreographed (e.g. Kateryna Shalkina helped with R&J) or created by other choreographers.

Thank you for the clarification! It's an interesting pattern.

 

[Anna K.]

I think Stephane's choreographic language is very distinct and unique to himself. That adds to the "outdated" impression, because Stephane himself last competed a little more than a decade ago, and seeing the same movements now can make the viewers remember those days when compared to other choreographic styles that came into prominence after his retirement. But it can also be perceived as him having a solid identity as a choreographer that doesn't change but instead adapts to the current system. It's hard to explain it but I think him being a recently retired skater who competed at the very top (I know it's been 12 years, it's still recent okay) made him more "present" in his choreographic works compared to former skaters-turned-choreographers who didn't reach his level when they competed as skaters, but it also works against him, because Stephane's choreographed programs will always be compared to... Stephane. Unlike Benoit Richaud or Daniil Gleikhenhauz, who also competed as skaters but were never that prominent.

Thank you for your post!
I hope I will return to it more than twice since there are many interesting thoughts and equally interesting links (and many things are distracting me offline right now so I can't go through it like it deserves), but as about Stephane being compared to other choreographers,

from my perspective (which has its limits so pls members of forum public, don't be shy to add to it) there are two types of choreographers: those who focus on the story and those who explore figure skating. Stephane is the second type. He developed as a choreographer experimenting what he could do on the ice as a skater. However, he is different from, in comparison, Mishin, who is also second type but explores figure skating on academic level using scientific methods. Also Mishin is famous for his focus on jumping while Stephane's focus has always been footwork and spins but both discovered new technical heights in chosen fields.
Hence this is a very good question: are these achievements dated or insufficient today because FS keeps developing or they feel dated or insufficient because they are not implemented by skaters as strong as Plushenko was for Mishin and as Stephane was when he skated himself?

To continue with the comparison, there was a time period when Mishin's other students looked very "plushy". I remember when a young skater (Voronov?) first debuted and I kind of said "oh, he copies Plushenko's style". A Russian friend I was watching the event with then turned to me and said: "It's not Plushenko's style, it's Mishin's." Then it hit me that it might take more than one person to create a famous individual skater's style - and also, that the skater might actually look "plushy" because Mishinn was trying to keep the technical difficulty level that Plushenko was always generously rewarded for (as we remember, this included hand and body movements).

Generally Stephane's choreos for SP are better / better executed /better received by fans. People like Misha's Muse SP but not exactly Presley FS. Camden's Oblivion SP gave him the junior world record, The Last Emperor FS turned out to be too difficult.
I have a feeling that Stephane prefers creating choreo for SP rather than for FS. Actually he choreographed only two Deniss' FS: "The Four Seasons" in 2016 and "The Lotus Feet" in 2019, the other were co-choreographed (e.g. Kateryna Shalkina helped with R&J) or created by other choreographers.

This may also be one of the effects of Stephane's choreography being very demanding technically. So, he can't really unleash himself in FS without making it too complicated for the skater and that's why he is less interested.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I'm well aware what Stephane has done over the decades. You're conflating choreography with skating skills, individual style and body movement that is frequently identifiable from skater to skater. A song is not a singer, nor does it control the identifiable tone of a voice. A program is not a skater nor does it control the identifiable style of skating in an individual.

I have noted that but not only with Stéphane. Yuzuru Hanyu DID get some postures from Brian Orser, I have noticed it. When the coach has been a style-defining sort of skater, his most gifted students will replicate some of his postures and moves. I have noted this in ballet too. I can see that without being a very strong jumper, Deniss Vasiljevs is a wonderful skater with an exceptional sense of motion. I see nothing wrong in his "catching" Stéphane's style, and to this we must add as Anna K. wrote, that Stéphane is also Deniss' choreograph, with a very personal style, while Brian Orser never choreographed, nor employed his own old choreographs for Yuzuru Hanyu's programs.

 

[Arigato]

I have noted that but not only with Stéphane. Yuzuru Hanyu DID get some postures from Brian Orser, I have noticed it. When the coach has been a style-defining sort of skater, his most gifted students will replicate some of his postures and moves. I have noted this in ballet too. I can see that without being a very strong jumper, Deniss Vasiljevs is a wonderful skater with an exceptional sense of motion. I see nothing wrong in his "catching" Stéphane's style, and to this we must add as Anna K. wrote, that Stéphane is also Deniss' choreograph, with a very personal style, while Brian Orser never choreographed, nor employed his own old choreographs for Yuzuru Hanyu's programs.

The expression "mini-stephane" conveys something completely different in meaning than "get some postures." Further, it's common knowledge Stephane does choreo for Deniss which is why Johnny Weir brought it all up to begin with. If I have to repeat this until someone gets it, I will - Johnny Weir brought this up on air as he was watching Deniss skate. Do you understand? If people have a problem with that, take it up with Johnny. Stephane and Johnny have been friends for years and Johnny brought it up because he thought Deniss may finally be breaking free from Stephane's hold on him by developing his own personal style. That was seen as a positive for Deniss by Johnny, and I agree with him. I see nothing wrong with what Johnny said and if it were so bad, I hardly think it would have been said on air for the world to hear. That includes Stephane's ears.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

This conversation has got very interesting... but extremely confusing, so I'm going to make my (potentially) final remarks.

- Lambiel has a lot to learn as a coach.
- Lambiel is certainly on the right track as a coach.
- Lambiel seems to care a lot for his students and how he can support them.
- Lambiel influences their style within his choreography, which is sometimes hit and miss like the majority of the choreographers.
- Lambiel really takes coaching seriously and really wants to invest into his students wellbeing.
- Lambiel as a skater seemed to have great skating ability, and he is passing this on to his skaters.
- Lambiel may work better with men - although this is unknown for now as he might produce a top women's skater.
- Lambiel may need to focus on improving the jumping aspect of his school - although again unknown due to it being down to skaters as well.


Not much more I want to say at this point.

 

[Anna K.]

This conversation has got very interesting... but extremely confusing, so I'm going to make my (potentially) final remarks.

- Lambiel has a lot to learn as a coach.
- Lambiel is certainly on the right track as a coach.
- Lambiel seems to care a lot for his students and how he can support them.
- Lambiel influences their style within his choreography, which is sometimes hit and miss like the majority of the choreographers.
- Lambiel really takes coaching seriously and really wants to invest into his students wellbeing.
- Lambiel as a skater seemed to have great skating ability, and he is passing this on to his skaters.
- Lambiel may work better with men - although this is unknown for now as he might produce a top women's skater.
- Lambiel may need to focus on improving the jumping aspect of his school - although again unknown due to it being down to skaters as well.


Not much more I want to say at this point.

Thank you for the summary!

To some of your statements, there is little or nothing to add. To others, especially the "may" statements and regarding what have been his choreographic hits or misses for specific skaters, there may be a lot. I hope that the conversation will continue in this thread so that you may come up with more to say later on.

About him coaching Ladies, I can't instantly name any program that Lambiel would have choreographed for female skaters except his Soldier of Love program for Diana Nikitina (unfortunately only the footage from Euros 2018 is available, in which she ruined all jumps) and this program has always made me wish he did more.

I have noted that but not only with Stéphane. Yuzuru Hanyu DID get some postures from Brian Orser, I have noticed it. When the coach has been a style-defining sort of skater, his most gifted students will replicate some of his postures and moves. I have noted this in ballet too. I can see that without being a very strong jumper, Deniss Vasiljevs is a wonderful skater with an exceptional sense of motion. I see nothing wrong in his "catching" Stéphane's style, and to this we must add as Anna K. wrote, that Stéphane is also Deniss' choreograph, with a very personal style, while Brian Orser never choreographed, nor employed his own old choreographs for Yuzuru Hanyu's programs.

This is very interesting but the most interesting part is sliding off-topic. I will rather quote this to the classical ballet thread because of parallels with ballet (if Lambiel gets mentioned again then I guess I will re-quote it back ).

 

[icetug]

About him coaching Ladies, I can't instantly name any program that Lambiel would have choreographed for female skaters except his Soldier of Love program for Diana Nikitina (unfortunately only the footage from Euros 2018 is available, in which she ruined all jumps) and this program has always made me wish he did more.

Stephane choreographed for Matilda Algotsson and Alexia Paganini when they were his students: Matilda FS (2019/20 season) Alexia FS (2020/21 season)

 

[TT_Fin]

Stephane choreographed for Matilda Algotsson and Alexia Paganini when they were his. students: Matilda FS (2019/20 season) Alexia FS (2020/21 season)

Viveca Lindfors' Frozen some years ago was choreographed by him, too. It was season 2016-2017, I found an old article from October 2016 about Finnish FS ladies and it was mentioned on it. I remembered it, but had just to check. Viveca gave up and turned back to her previous season's program later, I don't know why she gave up Frozen, maybe she just did not get inside it as well as she had wanted.

 

[Anna K.]

It was very interesting to see more of Stephane's choreos for Ladies, although in Alexia's case, she had such a disastrous skate that it was hard to decipher what the choreography was meant to be. Because of falls, she was running late and most of her moves were out of sync with the music - which only proves that being in sync with music is crucial for Lambiel's choreography. Needless to say that it also makes the program more complicated for the skater.

This made me curious about how Stephane dealt with similar situations when skating his own choreography himself. Here in his SP during WC 2007 he fell on 3A at the beginning of the program and lost pretty significant amount of time. After that, he skipped some bits and continued with the following element in sync with music like nothing at all. Which I guess was easy for him because he had this vision of choreography in his head and could easily correct it or improvise, if necessary. I suppose it could be time-consuming to transfer this vision to somebody else's head. His collaboration with Alexia was very brief, so it could be simply that there was not enough time for this to happen.

Matilda on her part had a clean skate in sync with music but she was very tense and clearly nervous about her jumps so the choreography didn't really work there either.

So, how might Lambiel's choreo look if skated by a top level female skater? Here (how could I forget ) he did choreography for Satoko Miyahara's SP previous season and
here is an exhibition from 2017 skated by Carolina Kostner so this might be his vision about it.

 

[icetug]

This made me curious about how Stephane dealt with similar situations when skating his own choreography himself. Here in his SP during WC 2007

I'm quite sure it was Salome Brunner (who can be seen in kiss & cry, together with Stephane's coach, Peter Grutter) who choreographed Stephane's programs when he was competing. Salome has been still creating choreos for multiple skaters, including Deniss (great Bloodstream), Matilda (I love La vie en rose created for her) and the Bodenstein siblings.