2018 NHK Ladies Short Program

[rikaquegira]

IMO i haven't seen a 38-39 PCS skater yet, since this is basically perfection. I haven't seen perfection yet.
But i would say that Satoko is 36-37 PCS skater (and 30-36 TES skater)

I know. I said 38~39 because that's what other top level skaters are getting and they are very far from perfection. Satoko is a little closer.

 

[Danny T]

So there was a few skaters I missed her and there (@ annoying co-worker: next time run your own gel genius it's a Friday's night :curse and I finally caught up fully with the ladies' SP.

Never been a fan of Leonova TBH (2012 podium, Morozov influence, etc.) but seeing her go clean after struggling for so many years, wow, I was truly touched. Her visible relief and happiness at the end of her skate helped too. This is truly a magical season for the veteran skaters huh

Angela Wang didn't have a perfect skate this time around either, but it is always nice to see improvements from the previous event. I do think she had more attack here compared to Helsinki too. Music choice is personally kind of snoozy, but she was somewhat selling it to me. Onwards and upwards!

Rika ;;; As I already said, 3A was a bit of a benefit of the doubt. Not outright blind tech panel per se, but it could have been worse. I'm mainly sad she looked really upset after the programme, and also while waiting for her score. Again, personally Claire de Lune is snoozy for me (even my beloved Mao made it a little bit more bearable) but after the fall she really delivered the programme. Good combo, and I love the lutz :luv17: Now, don't waste more good 3A in practice gurl

Kailani was really energetic, I enjoy the programme. The snake costume is cool (@ Lysacek take note). So was the combo, like damn gurl.

For the rest I think I'm still sticking with my live impressions. Except some tiny things (Satoko's lutz edge is at least a !, might have been e; Eunsoo was kinda rushed through her choreography?). Looking forward to tomorrow

 

[[email protected]]

Satoko was the only Japanese lady held up in the scores. Her 3Lz was ! and the 3T was probably UR. The +3s for the jumps you could argue against but you could also say she does check 3 bullets: good body position, creative entry, good takeoff and landing. With that said, she did get 35PCS when Liza got 32 which is fairly generous score to Elizaveta imo. So as always, I’ll say “it evens out” in the end? Because Satoko is a 38~39PCS skater but she never gets that kind of score.

About the other ladies, Rika was scored fairly low in PCS and her 3A was indeed called UR. Mai Mihara also got a UR call and her PCS was as low as always(lower than Liza’s even!!!).

So, I woud not say “it’s Japan”.

Eunsoo Lim definitely could’ve got a higher score though, but she’s underscored anywhere and the crazy call on her 3Lz was given by the non-Japanese tech panel so...

I do agree that the judging was bad but it’s not because “it’s Japan”, it’s just because, you know, ISU...

I understand that you are a fan of Rika, then sorry, but still she was overscored in TES. Her jumps are OK, although her free leg on the landing could be higher. But axel aside her having 3.53 GOE vs. Liza's 2.89 is very unfair to me - Liza's jumps are of better quality.

This time she was less involved in the program than during the challenger and she fell which disrupted the performance. Then her pcs vs. Liza who skated her best this season may be fair, may be too high.

Mai....she does not get these types of scores in NA or Europe somehow. That's why I said "it's Japan" (I could have added to Lim lowballed Sotskova and Craine). Of course, it is just my private opinion.

And, of course, Satoko with jump GOE (axel aside) higher than Liza was ridiculously overscored.

 

[largeman]

Wuzrobbed!

 

[elektra blue]

Alena LEONOVA: this was a nice surprise, I like this girl’s resilience and I always enjoy her programs even when they are odd (to be nice ) like her harley queen. She was clean and made it to the final groop, so kudos to her.

Rika KIHIRA: this girl is great, she has a very strong technic (her 3lutz was magnificent) and she is strong both technically and artistically. She just needs to be more consistent

Kailani CRAINE: I have to say I like this dramatic version of her, also she looks very improved on the tech side, her combo was beautiful and effortless. I still don’t understand the score

Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA: this was probably the best skate of her life and it was beautiful to watch. The 3a was as magnificent as the 3lutz

Satoko MIYAHARA: brilliant as usual, but I don’t understand why she changed her costume, this one doesn’t flatter her at all

 

[DSQ]

Masha

all her videos are either blocked by YouTube or the sound is off... what am I to do?

I know! I'm suffering.

I could film the screen with my phone? xD I’ve got it on demand on Eurosport.

 

[Mrs. P]

Dropped by to say Eunsoo was so underscored in PCS - she should have broken 70 and been neck and neck with Mai

Um, the margin between the two is like .5 point. I guess the margin could have been tighter, but it's still tight!

I think people are really underestimating Mai's abilities here. She has really good skating skills, nice glide, soft knees, good coverage. She's also quite musical. I think Eunsoo is a very impressive performer, but her overall skating skills are not as good.

 

[SXTN]

THIS HERE is probably my new favorite choreographical detail in all short programs this season. I love it.

 

[yume]

Um, the margin between the two is like .5 point. I guess the margin could have been tighter, but it's still tight!

I think people are really underestimating Mai's abilities here. She has really good skating skills, nice glide, soft knees, good coverage. She's also quite musical. I think Eunsoo is a very impressive performer, but her overall skating skills are not as good.

Skating-wise Mai is better IMO. But it's not surprising that many posters think that Eunsoo deserved better marks than Mai. People love skaters with expressive faces.

 

[rikaquegira]

I understand that you are a fan of Rika, then sorry, but still she was overscored in TES. Her jumps are OK, although her free leg on the landing could be higher. But axel aside her having 3.53 GOE vs. Liza's 2.89 is very unfair to me - Liza's jumps are of better quality.

This time she was less involved in the program than during the challenger and she fell which disrupted the performance. Then her pcs vs. Liza who skated her best this season may be fair, may be too high.

Mai....she does not get these types of scores in NA or Europe somehow. That's why I said "it's Japan" (I could have added to Lim lowballed Sotskova and Craine). Of course, it is just my private opinion.

And, of course, Satoko with jump GOE (axel aside) higher than Liza was ridiculously overscored.

I’m not understanding what you’re saying.

“But axel aside her having 3.53 GOE vs. Liza's 2.89 is very unfair to me - Liza's jumps are of better quality.”

What element are you talking about?


“This time she was less involved in the program than during the challenger and she fell which disrupted the performance.”

You’re talking about Rika, right? The Challenger was Ondrej Nepela right? Rika fell in the 3A there as well. She had slightly lower PCS there, 31.12
I thought the fall at NHK was worse than the one at ONT, at ONT it was less disruptive. Either way, honestly I don’t think it’s that disruptive since she keeps on with the performance as if nothing happened. Of course, it should take away PCS marks and I think it did, in both events.

About Liza’s PCS, we have to remember there are five different components. Elizaveta’s SS marks for instance, an 8.21, might be just fine in isolation, but Satoko, who has some of the best SS of not only this event but the entire field, was awarded an 8.79. Mai Mihara got the exact same score as Elizaveta’s for that component, that to me is strange to look at because watching their performances Mai has much better edges, knee bend, flow and speed than Liza. Rika got 7.89 for SS, almost the same as Eunsoo’s 7.86.
So, just looking at one single component there’s a lot of confusion to me. As I said, judging here was bad, I totally agree.


“Mai....she does not get these types of scores in NA or Europe somehow. That's why I said "it's Japan" (I could have added to Lim lowballed Sotskova and Craine). Of course, it is just my private opinion”

What is “these types of scores”? Mai got 70.94 in Nebelhorn(Germany) Challenger, 39.06 TES and 31.88 PCS. Here she got 70.38, 37.70 TES and 32.68 PCS. The difference is almost nothing. She got slightly higher PCS with an UR on the 3T but that’s not really any anomaly because that UR didn’t have any impact in her performance imo.

I don’t think Satoko was “ridiculously overscored” in TES, her jumps can possibly check bullets 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. The 2 may be a stretch... But there would still be left four other bullets. So if you think bullet 5 is also a stretch there would still be left three bullets. And that’s the GOE she got for her jumps, mostly +3s(there was one insane judge who gave her 3Lz3T a +4 and that judge is from Taipei not Japan).
The rest of her technical elements y’all know is perfection though. [emoji23]


Liza on the other hand was indeed underscored in TES. Why her 3Lz got mostly 3s??? I know the air position is not great but that’s only one bullet. I’d give her at least +4. The 3T3T was also amazing and got some +2s and just two 4s.... *

Anyway, sorry for the long post. In the end we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I appreciate your respectful discussion. [emoji120]

 

[[email protected]]

I’m not understanding what you’re saying.

“But axel aside her having 3.53 GOE vs. Liza's 2.89 is very unfair to me - Liza's jumps are of better quality.”

What element are you talking about?

. [emoji120]

I talk about combined GOE on combo and stand alone triple jump. Both Rika and Satoko have it higher than Liza and I don't agree with it.

For the last two seasons I keep saying that Rika is the most promising Japanese skater. And it is not about just 3A. Today was not her best performance - it was more like skating from one element to another. At the same time, Eunsoo Lim shined. And judges did not appreciate that imo.

Overscored and underscored is meaningless unless we compare the skaters. And here once again I think that the scores of Japanese skaters are too high vs. non-Japanese except Leonova who was treated relatively fairly.

And, of course, any score can be justified by bullets even what we saw today in men: I mean Shoma vs. Vincent

 

[yume]

I don’t think Satoko was “ridiculously overscored” in TES, her jumps can possibly check bullets 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. The 2 may be a stretch... But there would still be left four other bullets. So if you think bullet 5 is also a stretch there would still be left three bullets. And that’s the GOE she got for her jumps, mostly +3s(there was one insane judge who gave her 3Lz3T a +4 and that judge is from Taipei not Japan).
The rest of her technical elements y’all know is perfection though. [emoji23]

]

I don't think that her jumps check all these bullets. But if yes, then there should be more difference between her and those who not only check all these bullets but have good height and distance too.

 

[Tolstoj]

Satoko was the only Japanese lady held up in the scores. Her 3Lz was ! and the 3T was probably UR. The +3s for the jumps you could argue against but you could also say she does check 3 bullets: good body position, creative entry, good takeoff and landing. With that said, she did get 35PCS when Liza got 32 which is fairly generous score to Elizaveta imo. So as always, I’ll say “it evens out” in the end? Because Satoko is a 38~39PCS skater but she never gets that kind of score.

Even if you take those 2-3 points from Liza's PCS (though you have to give her credit she tried to perform more here than at Skate Canada, the interpretation was there, she added some little movement) she should have lead with a far bigger margin here, and it's not just because of Japan cause i've seen this nonsense already at Skate America, here it's only more noticeable because they have to push their home skaters more.

Good body position has to be from take-off to landing, Satoko's landing on the lutz is very weird with that free leg. The take-off is also all wrong with:

- massive prerotation (it should affect the body position also)
- change of edge (it was a flutz, and that's unusual cause she used to jump her lutz from an outside edge)
- full blade assist on the first jump (the lutz is supposed to be a toe jump)
- underrotations? (i'd have to check it again, the flutz looks UR to me)

At best Miyahara's jumps are a +1 for the creative / unexpected entry, +2 is already confusing (you'd have to give her the good body position), +3/+4 is just stupid, especially +4 is an actual mistake by the judge cause to get that, you must have "good height and distance".

For some judge a jump with an edge call is a 0, sometimes even -1.

I won't discuss the scores much cause all federations push their skaters, i thought Alina was also very overscored last week (69 with that SP with a 3-1 was also nonsense), but when you look back to back Liza's jumps and Satoko's jumps and you look at the protocols and you see Satoko's combos getting higher GOE than Liza's combo, i'd like to know if those judges really know the rules.

Kudos to British Eurosport, this season more than the past they're getting more and more honest.

 

[Zora]

If Satoko's jumps don't deserve 0 GOE, how does a 0 GOE jump even look like? Do these jumps even exist or is every normal jump a +2 or +3 and only jumps with small mistakes like a wrong edge deserve 0 GOE?

 

[zounger]

Eunsoo LIM has one of the best SP this season, if not the best.

 

[moriel]

If Satoko's jumps don't deserve 0 GOE, how does a 0 GOE jump even look like? Do these jumps even exist or is every normal jump a +2 or +3 and only jumps with small mistakes like a wrong edge deserve 0 GOE?

There are several ways of having a 0 GOE jump.
For example, one can have 0 GOE for a jump that is kinda small, the skater lands it but the body positions and the flow are not great either, the jump doesnt match the music, there is no difficult entry or exit. No mistakes
Or you can have 0 GOE with some checked bullets but also some mistakes - for example, extremely long setup on a nice big jump (this is where Liza's 0's for her 3A at Skate Canada came from, very likely)

 

[Ophelia]

Miyahara is exquisite. Her skating is exquisite. Her SP is exquisite. Her music is exquisite.

That outfit however...too 90s bridal. She should go back to her original dress.

 

[oatmella]

Eunsoo’s score is a bit too low!

Thought Rika did great despite the one mistake.

And Liza’s truly effortless-looking 3A - wow!

 

[Tolstoj]

If Satoko's jumps don't deserve 0 GOE, how does a 0 GOE jump even look like? Do these jumps even exist or is every normal jump a +2 or +3 and only jumps with small mistakes like a wrong edge deserve 0 GOE?

Miyahara's jumps should be 0 (when they're fully rotated) to me:

- no very good body position from takeoff to landing (see above)
- no very good height and distance (her jumps are objectively small and short)

- creative / unexpected entry -> +1

and i'd give a -1 for the prerotation since there is no clear rule on how to penalize that, but it is there, so it should affect the grade of execution.

 

[gmyers]

Tuktamysheva needs good North American proper programs for higher PCS. Yeah mishin hired David Wilson and then what? ALL IN THE GARBAGE