2022 4CCs: Pairs - Thoughts?

[gsk8]

USA's Lu and Mitrofanov: 'It means everything'

USA’s Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov skated to victory for the Pairs’ title at the 2022 Four Continent Figure Skating Championships on Saturday in Tallinn, Estonia. Teammates Emily Chan and Spencer Howe […]

www.goldenskate.com

I was so missing the Chinese teams

A big congratulations to all six teams, four of which made their debut at this event.

Lu/Mitrafanov have a nice throw triple Lutz!

Even with the fall on the triple toes, they had the cleanest skate of all six teams. What are your thoughts on the Pairs' event?

 

[4everchan]

underwhelming event without any of the top teams unfortunately. Looking forward to next year's when it's not an Olympic year aka depleted 4cc field

 

[slider11]

I agree that Lui and Mitrofanov have lots of potential but I worry about their lack of musicality and his feet during lifts. I also wonder if Nate Bartholomay is done. He looked pretty dejected in the KnC. His free skate at Nationals with Felicia Zhang was so epic-sad that it might be the pinnacle of his amateur career. I was very sad when Felicia and he broke their partnership the next year. They could be the US #1 at this point.

 

[Bord]

I agree that Lui and Mitrofanov have lots of potential but I worry about their lack of musicality and his feet during lifts. I also wonder if Nate Bartholomay is done. He looked pretty dejected in the KnC. His free skate at Nationals with Felicia Zhang was so epic-sad that it might be the pinnacle of his amateur career. I was very sad when Felicia and he broke their partnership the next year. They could be the US #1 at this point.

lu and mitrofanov - in my opinion - lack chemistry, the spark. they are well trained but not connected. howe and chan - a different issue. he has charisma and your eye is drawn to him over her. his skating skills look stronger than hers. i hope she can catch up.

 

[ladyjane]

I've just been watching the Pairs event, and although it was just six couples I for one enjoyed it. Particularly because the Pairs were pretty close to each other. I didn't mind that it was a North American show down. Funnily, the three pairs who skated cleanish (without falls), all turned one or more of their jumps into doubles. Sticking to the triples, even with a fall payed off tonight!

I thought Lori-Ann and Thierry skated so much better than in the SP. Sure, they had one of those double experiences but the programme as a whole looked pretty good. I also have to confess that Thierry's smile is awesome!

Deanna wasn't very pleased with herself after her and Maxime's programme (she did the double thing as well), and indeed I've seen them do better along the season, but it still was a pretty good outing. Those lifts are really great. And they did manage to raise to 4th place with it.

Katie and Nathan weren't at their best. Both made mistakes, and regrettably they took you a bit out of the programme. Sadly for them, there was both a double and a fall.

For me Emily and Spencer were the stars this evening. They had a fall on one throw (and it looked pretty nasty too) and a step out on the other, but the whole programme was just beautiful. I don't know what it was exactly, but they were just so into it. Yay!

I felt sorry for Evelyn and Trennt. No major mishaps (except for doing doubles) and some struggling with a lift, but they really can do better. But, the low levels really cost them. Trennt was really unhappy about the performance. Still a bronze for them, but I'm sure they had hoped for more.

Audrey and Misha were the deserved winners, despite also experiencing a fall with one of the SBS jumps (the toes). I was looking forward to seeing their 3S-eu-3S but the last jump turned into a double after all. Still, they definitely were the best this evening, just a little less inspiring than in their SP yesterday.

 

[moonvine]

What a fun event with so many SB and PBs!!
I am so happy for Katie! She looked so happy.
I wish Deanna had been able to medal.
What a great day for the American pairs!

 

[readernick]

The SP was great. Most of the pairs were clean and the issues were just with the quality of certain elements. Most of the teams were happy after the SP. It was actually one of the most enjoyable events of the season despite the lack of high-level pairs.

The FS was another thing all together. M/F , the lowest placing team, did better in the FS than the SP. However, they were the only team who looked somewhat happy after their skate. There were a lot of quality issues, SBS issues, and one rather rough fall on a throw. It wasn't nearly as enjoyable. However, I do think the top 2 teams here have some potential to become quite competitive in the next few years. I , also, think the rest of the teams are showing improvement from their earlier competitions so it isn't all doom and gloom.

 

[moonvine]

I'm watching the NBC broadcast, which for some reason has Ashley Wagner and some other guy (not Terry Gannon, someone else)

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I agree that Lui and Mitrofanov have lots of potential but I worry about their lack of musicality and his feet during lifts. I also wonder if Nate Bartholomay is done. He looked pretty dejected in the KnC. His free skate at Nationals with Felicia Zhang was so epic-sad that it might be the pinnacle of his amateur career. I was very sad when Felicia and he broke their partnership the next year. They could be the US #1 at this point.

Jim Peterson has had a knack for preparing his teams for big competitions, even teams with not a ton of huge talent. That hasn't been the case recently because he relocated, and he's in the process of rebuilding in Canton, MI, with his coaching partner, Amanda Evora. Jim produced a pairs skating video instruction series recently, with the help of others, including Robin Szolkowy (Plazas/ Fernandez served as the pair demonstrating pairs moves). I don't have the link immediately available. I hope Jim becomes very active on the senior scene again soon with more good pairs teams. He was responsible for pairing McIsaac/Sadusky, and they looked good together, until their experience in Colorado led to them being split up. Jim is also responsible for Katie McBeath pairing with Nate Bartholomay.

Regarding Nate, I think it is simply that his body is wearing down. One of the reasons he and Deanna split was because he had an injury that required surgery. Nate, more often than not these days, tends to have trouble getting around on his jump revolutions. It's not for lack of skill or training. His body is just not the same, regardless of his will.

Felicia Zhang had the desire to attend school, so she was never going to continue competing this many years. Nate just simply appears to love figure skating. Had Felicia and Nate remained partners, I believe there was a ceiling as to how far they could have risen in U.S. senior pairs. They didn't have explosive power, speed, or huge weapons. There is no way they would have been on top as a pairs team in the U.S. for this quad. Some skaters (such as Zhang) achieve their Olympic goal, and they're happy with that and they move on.

Nate was always going to need another partner, and he gained an excellent one in Deanna. After Deanna moved on, he was very lucky to meet and match up well with Katie, on-and-off the ice. It's nice that they are the couple on the ice who open the Meddling documentary. They did a great job with the intro cameo.

Also, don't worry about Lu/Mitrofanov. They are in good hands with their coaches. No pairs team is completely perfect at every aspect of pairs skating. Not even the technically exemplary Russians. Every team has weaknesses to improve upon.

 

[moonvine]

I agree that Lui and Mitrofanov have lots of potential but I worry about their lack of musicality and his feet during lifts. I also wonder if Nate Bartholomay is done. He looked pretty dejected in the KnC. His free skate at Nationals with Felicia Zhang was so epic-sad that it might be the pinnacle of his amateur career. I was very sad when Felicia and he broke their partnership the next year. They could be the US #1 at this point.

I don’t know. It’s my understanding that he and Katie are dating and she seems very happy. Then again he might retire and help her find another partner, who knows?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm watching the NBC broadcast, which for some reason has Ashley Wagner and some other guy (not Terry Gannon, someone else)

Are you referring to the E! broadcasts that Peacock posted in addition to the live feeds without commentary? I thought the female commentator's voice sounded familiar, but I couldn't readily identify. I only checked out a little bit of the E! for the pairs sp, and then I switched back to the live feed because it didn't break up the broadcast with commercials.

In the sp, I thought that Chan/Howe were a bit stronger than Walsh/Michaud. Of course, W/M skated clean, but C/H are a better matched team, and they have a better look on the ice, in addition to having much more overall potential in pairs. At the least, the sp score between W/M and C/H should have been even tighter. W/M's lifts are not great looking. The only reason I can see that they are scored high on lifts is because Trennt is a great pairs guy, and he's extremely steady and smooth with his footwork. He simply needs a partner who can better match his skills and his physicality. This is not to be dismissive of Evelyn. I think she could do well with a taller partner.

Meanwhile, why didn't W/M bring their competitive grit with them throughout the full season? I'm not impressed by their victimized, entitled attitude and their obvious lack of sportsmanship. If Canada had not lost so many top pairs teams for various reasons, W/M would not have been in contention for this Olympics in the first place. They need to sort their priorities, give thanks for their blessings, and seriously look at the writing on the ice regarding their future together as a viable competitive team at the highest level. I can't see them improving much more together. Even a fit and confident Deanna/Maxime have more potential to continue improving together as a pairs team. Deanna seemed a bit tight and nervous in both programs at 4CCs -- she and Maxime could have performed better. But who knows whether they are nursing aches and pains, or maybe Deanna was feeling the stress of the travel, and anxiety surrounding her first major international competition representing Canada. Autumn Classic is a small, Canadian-based preseason competition, regardless of being a senior B international event.

In the fp at 2022 4CCs, all the teams looked tired and appeared to struggle as a result. Perhaps the long flight over was beginning to be felt by the time the fp rolled around. Lu/Mitrofanov were the best in this very small field. I guess Trennt was upset by his errors, but he and Evelyn both had miscues in the fp. In the kiss-n-cry, Trennt appeared devastated knowing that they would be passed by Chan/Howe. Honestly, C/H have better skills, and would have been even farther ahead in the standings had they skated the way they can. So much for Purkiss suggesting W/M could win 4CCs. W/M are fortunate to make the podium on the strength of their clean sp skate. Part of the issue for Deanna/Maxime, could be political protocol and rep having them rated behind W/M -- added to D&M's own competitive nerves, of course.

I agree with @readernick's excellent assessment of this event. I had been planning to point out too how the last place team, Matte/Ferland had the best fp skate, but they didn't move up because of the problems they had in the sp, while everyone else skated relatively clean in the sp.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don’t know. It’s my understanding that he and Katie are dating and she seems very happy. Then again he might retire and help her find another partner, who knows?

Yes, we'll see what happens. I think Nate simply loves figure skating. Perhaps he will end up coaching if he retires after this season. Nate will be 33 in May of this year. Katie is currently 27. I'm not sure Katie would be interested in finding another partner to skate with. Perhaps Nate can eke out one more season. It would be nice to see them further develop their partnership, since Katie is still growing her skills as a pairs skater. They don't get much distance on their throws, and often not great height either. They are very well matched, and enjoyable to watch when they have a good performance going.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Trennt was really unhappy about the performance. Still a bronze for them, but I'm sure they had hoped for more.

Skate Canada always tends to make it clear they want to beat U.S. skaters, especially in pairs, but also in every discipline they can. I've heard some rumblings about Canadian fans hoping Schizas can beat the U.S. ladies. And there's always quotes from coaches like Bruno Marcotte and Alison Purkiss about beating U.S. teams.

Marcotte is thrilled that he coaches the Japanese pair, Miura/Kihara, who were behind two U.S. pairs teams at 2021 Worlds, But now, due to M/K's consistency and the popularity they have with fans who enjoy seeing Japan fielding a competitive pair for the first time at the Olympics, Marcotte is all gung-ho happy and in his feelings. He's surely looking forward to coaching a team who are poised to possibly beat the U.S. teams this time around at Olympics and Worlds. Meanwhile, all the guff about M/K being competitive with Russian and Chinese pairs teams, is overdone

 

[moonvine]

Yes, we'll see what happens. I think Nate simply loves figure skating. Perhaps he will end up coaching if he retires after this season. Nate will be 33 in May of this year. Katie is currently 27. I'm not sure Katie would be interested in finding another partner to skate with. Perhaps Nate can eke out one more season. It would be nice to see them further develop their partnership, since Katie is still growing her skills as a pairs skater. They don't get much distance on their throws, and often not great height either. They are very well matched, and enjoyable to watch when they have a good performance going.

I no longer attempt to guess. I would have said Chris and Alexa would never have dissolved their (skating) partnership and yet it has seemed to work out for Chris, Alexa, Brandon AND all the pair teams Chris is now coaching.

 

[honey_badger]

Are you referring to the E! broadcasts that Peacock posted in addition to the live feeds without commentary? I thought the female commentator's voice sounded familiar, but I couldn't readily identify. I only checked out a little bit of the E! for the pairs sp, and then I switched back to the live feed because it didn't break up the broadcast with commercials.

In the sp, I thought that Chan/Howe were a bit stronger than Walsh/Michaud. Of course, W/M skated clean, but C/H are a better matched team, and they have a better look on the ice, in addition to having much more overall potential in pairs. At the least, the sp score between W/M and C/H should have been even tighter. W/M's lifts are not great looking. The only reason I can see that they are scored high on lifts is because Trennt is a great pairs guy, and he's extremely steady and smooth with his footwork. He simply needs a partner who can better match his skills and his physicality. This is not to be dismissive of Evelyn. I think she could do well with a taller partner.

Meanwhile, why didn't W/M bring their competitive grit with them throughout the full season? I'm not impressed by their victimized, entitled attitude and their obvious lack of sportsmanship. If Canada had not lost so many top pairs teams for various reasons, W/M would not have been in contention for this Olympics in the first place. They need to sort their priorities, give thanks for their blessings, and seriously look at the writing on the ice regarding their future together as a viable competitive team at the highest level. I can't see them improving much more together. Even a fit and confident Deanna/Maxime have more potential to continue improving together as a pairs team. Deanna seemed a bit tight and nervous in both programs at 4CCs -- she and Maxime could have performed better. But who knows whether they are nursing aches and pains, or maybe Deanna was feeling the stress of the travel, and anxiety surrounding her first major international competition representing Canada. Autumn Classic is a small, Canadian-based preseason competition, regardless of being a senior B international event.

In the fp at 2022 4CCs, all the teams looked tired and appeared to struggle as a result. Perhaps the long flight over was beginning to be felt by the time the fp rolled around. Lu/Mitrofanov were the best in this very small field. I guess Trennt was upset by his errors, but he and Evelyn both had miscues in the fp. In the kiss-n-cry, Trennt appeared devastated knowing that they would be passed by Chan/Howe. Honestly, C/H have better skills, and would have been even farther ahead in the standings had they skated the way they can. So much for Purkiss suggesting W/M could win 4CCs. W/M are fortunate to make the podium on the strength of their clean sp skate. Part of the issue for Deanna/Maxime, could be political protocol and rep having them rated behind W/M -- added to D&M's own competitive nerves, of course.

I agree with @readernick's excellent assessment of this event. I had been planning to point out too how the last place team, Matte/Ferland had the best fp skate, but they didn't move up because of the problems they had in the sp, while everyone else skated relatively clean in the sp.

I'm seriously baffled with your way of thinking.

Really, Walsh/Michaud are the ones with entitled attitude? Not the team, that turned up out of the blue, nine months before the Olympics, to compete for spots, that had already been secured by other teams? Not the team, that received blatant backing by Scate Canada, before they even competed once? Not the team, that expected themselves to be named in the Olympic team, based on what they did three and four months ago?

Really, Walsh/Michaud are the ones with obvious lack of sportsmanship? Perhaps, you think Radford doing choreos for Walsh/Michaud and suddenly deciding to compete directly against them, is a sporty behaviour? For me, it is the definition of unfair play. How would you feel, if someone who was supposedly helping you, suddenly becomes your competitor? I would feel betrayed and metaphorically speaking, backstabbed.

All the above, without even touching other much more serious moral matters, regarding James' behaviour in the past.

 

[chuckm]

Walsh Michaud skated clean? Maybe in the SP, but the FS was another matter. Their combo jump was 2t+2t, and their 3s was <. They did two of the easier throws (3lo and 3t) and the 3lo wasn't cleanly landed. Then there was the final lift, which went wrong and ended prematurely, earning only 3.83 points while the two previous lifts received 7.7 and 8.28 points. Their performances here were cleaner than their GP performances, but not by that much.

I think Trennt was distraught not because Chan / Howe beat them, but because he had messed up the lift, and they had failed to win the competition, which was no doubt what Skate Canada expected them to do. IMO, they had little chance to win against Lu / Mitrofanov simply because L/M have harder elements (3s-eu-2s, and 3zTh) and a much better throw twist lift, they have consistently scored well at their earlier competitions this year (64+ SP and 120+ FS in the GP) and they won Golden Spin, where W/M finished 9th.

I think W/M are mismatched. Evelyn grew a lot this year, and she looks too big for Trennt. Maybe he has lots of strength, but it did fail him with that final lift---and a failed lift can be dangerous to the girl.

 

[4everchan]

I do not think Skate Canada expected them to win this. Where did you read this?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Not the team, that turned up out of the blue, nine months before the Olympics, to compete for spots, that had already been secured by other teams?

Are you serious? No spot for the Olympics is ever 'secured' until it actually happens. Had James/Radford not shown they are a well-matched pairing with the ability to improve over their first season as new partners, Skate Canada would likely not have been as enthusiastic about supporting them for the Olympic assignment amidst their issues with COVID and resultant lack of training time which affected their ability to compete with full strength at Cdn Nationals.

Meanwhile, if you, W/M and their supporters feel that W/M had the Olympics spot in pairs for Canada 'secured,' then that's where the real problem begins. W/M should have come out at the beginning of the season with a fighting attitude, rather than with a victimized, 'woe is us' attitude. They shouldn't expect that doing well at their Nationals, but not doing well at all during the first half of the season entitled them to a 'secure' spot on the Olympic team.

Vanessa and Eric did not "turn up out of the blue," either. They are champion pairs veterans with their former partners. If Skate Canada had depth in their pairs discipline, then SC officials may not have been as eager to support J/R in a comeback bid as new partners. IMO, Skate Canada fully support the J/R pairing or it never would have happened for them competitively representing Canada. They had SC's backing prior to Vanessa requesting her release from France. Believe it or not. Also, understand that competing for Canada with Eric was NOT Vanessa's idea. The opportunity was presented to her by Eric, after he had discussed it with Skate Canada first.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

All the above, without even touching other much more serious moral matters, regarding James' behaviour in the past.

Can you please elaborate on what 'moral matters' you are speaking of in relation to Vanessa James? You do not have the right to question Vanessa's morality in this era of #MeToo, simply because her former partner was mixed up in alleged reprehensible behavior toward minors at their former rink in Florida. All of the adults at that rink who handle the rink's management, hold a large measure of responsibility for the questionable activities which allegedly occurred at that rink. Vanessa was not directly involved in the incident, and she should not have to answer for her partner's actions. Plus, there are still many questions about exactly what happened, the specific motivations, and the chronology of events. These questions are bound to never be answered, so what we are left with is the SafeSport outcome in the absence of investigative transparency. We are also left with finger-pointing attitudes, rumor, gossip, and policing on skating forums by fans who were not involved and who do not have complete knowledge of what occurred.

Therefore, you should be specific about what 'serious moral matters' you are negatively attempting to target Vanessa with in relation to her 'behavior in the past.' None of this type of negativity has anything to do with James/Radford's partnership, nor with their competitive talents, nor with their Olympic selection to represent Canada.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

failed to win the competition, which was no doubt what Skate Canada expected them to do

I do not think Skate Canada expected them to win this. Where did you read this?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/figure-skating-duo-didn-t-make-olympic-team-coach-says-they-ll-come-back-stronger-1.6310062

In the above article, W/M's coach, Allison Purkiss, indicates her belief that W/M could possibly win 4CCs. The sentiment was awkwardly paraphrased by the writer of the article, so it is not clear what Purkiss' exact words were about W/M's chances to win at 4CCs:

"Purkiss is confident that Walsh-Michaud will have many more opportunities to claim a victory at the Four Continents figure skating championship next week."

I have not seen any mention of Skate Canada 'expecting' W/M to win 4CCs. I do think it is clear that Skate Canada continues to fully back W/M as Canadian pairs competitors, despite their poor showing competitively last fall, and despite the uncalled for media and social media outbursts about SC's Olympics selections post Cdn Nationals. It is clear to me that SC officials shut down the whining from W/M's camp, as well as the public and social media comments on W/M's behalf by Meagan Duhamel, and by Liz Manley and other former Canadian skaters.