4CC from the Perspective of an Outsider

[Daniel1998]

Before I start talking about controversial things that are surely going to lead to name-calling and some bitter back and forth, I'd like to congratulate Nathan Chen on an outstanding performance to win 4CC, as well as Hanyu and Uno for medaling.

For reference later on, here are the component scores from the free program.
Hanyu: 94.34= 9.46/9.25/9.54/9.46/9.46
Chan: 92.58= 9.25/9.18/9.14/9.29/9.43
Uno: 91.08= 9.11/8.96/9.04/9.18/9.25
Chen: 88.86= 9.00/8.75/8.89/8.93/8.86
Jin: 77.44= 8.04/7.43/7.64/7.82/7.79

I watched the free program with a friend who knows little about figure skating, but I explained to him beforehand how the system and scoring works. As he watched, he pointed out Chan and Hanyu as the best skaters in his eyes, with Uno a clear third and Chen and Jin further behind. He was also blown away by Nathan Chen's technical ability and Hanyu's technical quality.

When all the scores came up, he asked me about the component scores and for me to explain why:
1. There was only a four point gap between Chan and Chen's component scores;
2. Uno was so close to Chan and Hanyu;
3. Why Chen and Jin were 11 points apart.

He didn't ask those questions bitterly- he was genuinely curious. I couldn't really give him a valid answer to any of those questions, and I ended up just saying, "oh, when you do your technical stuff really well, you tend to get high artistic and skating skills marks as well." He was silent for a minute and said, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, how do your skating skills get better if you land jumps?" I couldn't really argue with that, so I said nothing, but he pressed me: "why do you watch a sport that judges like this?" I told him I watched to appreciate the skating and admire the performances, regardless of the scores and the controversies.

He accepted that answer, but is figure skating sending the wrong message, especially to new fans? There's been a problem with the way PCS has been judged for years now, but is the problem growing, and are there changes that need to be made? The quad revolution has had an amazing impact on the sport and I've been for the most part able to accept the PCS problem as a result, but I felt a bit embarrassed today to not have any legitimate response to the questions my friend had about why the judging was like this for a sport I love.

I didn't mean to harp on Chen or anything- I think he's super talented and what he's doing is unbelievable, and he seems like a down-to-earth guy. I was just a bit flustered at my inability to answer my friend's questions and wondered what you guys were thinking about the event and the sport as a whole.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think Chen's PCS will go down if another skater does level 4 elements plus 5 quads with a much better program. Right now Chen is getting the benefit of nobody knowing if anyone can do a much better program with that tech content. He's a result of a more than a decade long judging system where top names with high tech get higher PCS because of their tech. Jason and even Grant's higher PCS over men with much higher TES is an improvement from what we got in the past. I mean even when quads weren't everything we had someone with Lysaceck and Plushenko choreography getting the highest PCS with the exception of Lambiel in Vancouver but I don't know how much of hat was trying to make up for his lackluster skate. Remember when Joubert received higher PCS than Buttle at 2008 Worlds?

 

[beki]

Sometimes I have to take breaks from the sport. I'm talking entire seasons. It's worse if I get super invested in specific skaters and they don't do well. Or questionable judging annoys me, or skaters I don't like start winning so much I can't avoid them.

 

[Barb]

Before I start talking about controversial things that are surely going to lead to name-calling and some bitter back and forth, I'd like to congratulate Nathan Chen on an outstanding performance to win 4CC, as well as Hanyu and Uno for medaling.

For reference later on, here are the component scores from the free program.
Hanyu: 94.34= 9.46/9.25/9.54/9.46/9.46
Chan: 92.58= 9.25/9.18/9.14/9.29/9.43
Uno: 91.08= 9.11/8.96/9.04/9.18/9.25
Chen: 88.86= 9.00/8.75/8.89/8.93/8.86
Jin: 77.44= 8.04/7.43/7.64/7.82/7.79

I watched the free program with a friend who knows little about figure skating, but I explained to him beforehand how the system and scoring works. As he watched, he pointed out Chan and Hanyu as the best skaters in his eyes, with Uno a clear third and Chen and Jin further behind. He was also blown away by Nathan Chen's technical ability and Hanyu's technical quality.

When all the scores came up, he asked me about the component scores and for me to explain why:
1. There was only a four point gap between Chan and Chen's component scores;
2. Uno was so close to Chan and Hanyu;
3. Why Chen and Jin were 11 points apart.

He didn't ask those questions bitterly- he was genuinely curious. I couldn't really give him a valid answer to any of those questions, and I ended up just saying, "oh, when you do your technical stuff really well, you tend to get high artistic and skating skills marks as well." He was silent for a minute and said, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, how do your skating skills get better if you land jumps?" I couldn't really argue with that, so I said nothing, but he pressed me: "why do you watch a sport that judges like this?" I told him I watched to appreciate the skating and admire the performances, regardless of the scores and the controversies.

He accepted that answer, but is figure skating sending the wrong message, especially to new fans? There's been a problem with the way PCS has been judged for years now, but is the problem growing, and are there changes that need to be made? The quad revolution has had an amazing impact on the sport and I've been for the most part able to accept the PCS problem as a result, but I felt a bit embarrassed today to not have any legitimate response to the questions my friend had about why the judging was like this for a sport I love.

I didn't mean to harp on Chen or anything- I think he's super talented and what he's doing is unbelievable, and he seems like a down-to-earth guy. I was just a bit flustered at my inability to answer my friend's questions and wondered what you guys were thinking about the event and the sport as a whole.

People are noticing it more because now Yuzu is the affected. I am not happy with this neither but just look at what thread in the section of 4cc has more pages, men. People get really excited about all this quad fest. The ISU knows, they see all the hype in Japan with Yuzu, Javi in Spain and Nathan in USA.

 

[largeman]

Sometimes I have to take breaks from the sport. I'm talking entire seasons. It's worse if I get super invested in specific skaters and they don't do well. Or questionable judging annoys me, or skaters I don't like start winning so much I can't avoid them.

I understand what you mean.. in my case, I'm not even excited about watching the ladies at this year's worlds, so I've been getting myself more invested in Men and also more familiar and educated in Pairs.

In my personal opinion, currently the elements and TES are scored quite fairly and reasonably in Men's. Today you see Yuzuru getting over +19 points of GOE because his elements are executed so well, versus Nathan getting only +9 but wins higher TES overall because of his higher BV. In Ladies', high GOEs are awarded to jumps that have really questionable technique but maybe some shiny and distracting bells and whistles attached. When it comes to PCS, it may be a bit of a black box in both disciplines... But at the end of the day I like to see good jumps and well executed elements rewarded, and that's happening in Men's more than in Ladies'.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I understand what you mean.. in my case, I'm not even excited about watching the ladies at this year's worlds, so I've been getting myself more invested in Men and also more familiar and educated in Pairs.

In my personal opinion, currently the elements and TES are scored quite fairly and reasonably in Men's. Today you see Yuzuru getting over +19 points of GOE because his elements are executed so well, versus Nathan getting only +9 but wins higher TES overall because of his higher BV. In Ladies', high GOEs are awarded to jumps that have really questionable technique but maybe some shiny and distracting bells and whistles attached. When it comes to PCS, it may be a bit of a black box in both disciplines... But at the end of the day I like to see good jumps and well executed elements rewarded, and that's happening in Men's more than in Ladies'.

This is exactly how I feel. Ladies is the discipline I'm least excited about though I do enjoy Pogorilaya, Satoko (though she has real jumping issues that are ignored), Kostner, and Karen Chen's SP (though this girl is going to give me a heart attack and I don't know if she'll ever bring it plus she may have issues with her 3/3 even when she does land it).

 

[Krislite]

You mean you actually tried to understand and explain PCS in terms of the technical handbook guidelines?

Look, PCS is correlated with skating skills plus quality of executed elements. The truth is PCS and TES are strongly correlated.

PCS = TES +/- skating skills +/- reputation +/- politics

The weights can differ per the skater, whether they're new or established, and their federation (whether they're powerful or a non-entity), but that's it. Nothing else to it.

Don't read into the magnitude of the differences in points, as there's no real meaning to them.

So skaters, please land your jumps first. Then land them consistently. Then land them well. Then add some flair, spark and speed if you still have energy left. PCS will follow.

P.S.: the rules are different for the ladies. Land your jumps first, then add some Tanos. Add more Tanos (both arms are even better), until every jump is covered. Then add some flair, spark and speed...

 

[Daniel1998]

PCS = TES +/- skating skills +/- reputation +/- politics

But this is exactly what my friend thought was ridiculous. We may be used to the current judging system from experience, having followed the sport for a while, but I only realized today how absurd it must sound to newcomers that the scores aren't given via the technical handbook guidelines but through things like politics and reputation.

 

[sabinfire]

I am not happy with this neither but just look at what thread in the section of 4cc has more pages, men. People get really excited about all this quad fest.

I'm a ladies fan, but I've only really watched the men at 4CC, because the ladies field was weak. It's not a fair comparison, there weren't any big names in ladies at 4CC.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

One can argue that the PCS guidelines themselves can justify the current PCS. A lot of the terminology used is really up for the judges' discretion. The issue is that people want PCS to be a system that will match a lay person's first impression of a performance like the way judging at World Pros and other made for tv events were, which of course would result in one's personal favorite skaters to get higher PCS.

 

[nolangoh]

I understand what you mean.. in my case, I'm not even excited about watching the ladies at this year's worlds, so I've been getting myself more invested in Men and also more familiar and educated in Pairs.

In my personal opinion, currently the elements and TES are scored quite fairly and reasonably in Men's. Today you see Yuzuru getting over +19 points of GOE because his elements are executed so well, versus Nathan getting only +9 but wins higher TES overall because of his higher BV. In Ladies', high GOEs are awarded to jumps that have really questionable technique but maybe some shiny and distracting bells and whistles attached. When it comes to PCS, it may be a bit of a black box in both disciplines... But at the end of the day I like to see good jumps and well executed elements rewarded, and that's happening in Men's more than in Ladies'.

I am the same...and it is just sad because Ladies used to be where all the spotlights are on. I started watching figure skating as a pro-Ladies-figure-skating fan, but now I just turn my focus on Dance and Pairs because that is where the magic is happening...

 

[Krislite]

But this is exactly what my friend thought was ridiculous. We may be used to the current judging system from experience, having followed the sport for a while, but I only realized today how absurd it must sound to newcomers that the scores aren't given via the technical handbook guidelines but through things like politics and reputation.

Even if you stripped the judges of national bias, I don't think it's really possible to score exactly according to the guidebook given the constraints judges have. They will not all be familiar with every skater, hence the influence of reputation. They do not have time to evaluate the program properly (just a few seconds to punch in each of the component scores), hence the strong correlation of the five components with each other. Truly, only skating skills and transitions can be evaluated quickly, so those components drive the remaining components. And what colors the judges' impressions of skating skills and transitions? That's right, the quality of the executed elements.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I watched 2016 Worlds with a bunch of my fellow lawyer friends they all seemed to enjoy the sport and understood PCS was correlated and influenced by TES. Then I showed them the PCS guidelines and definitions and understood how one could easily argue with any sort of score even if it matched or didn't match the judges just because we see how vague a lot of the terminology is. Plus, we're used to judges having discretionary power and coming up with wildly different conclusions even when looking at the same black letter law.

I sort of think your friend's question about why wasn't the PCS differential bigger between Chen and Chan/Hanyu and why was Uno's scores so close to Hanyu/Chan's and then why was there an 11 point difference between Chen and Jin seems to be questions skating fans would ask rather than a new person who wouldn't understand what is a good and what is a bad point differential in PCS is. I'm honestly sort of doubting some of this story. I apologize if it's completely true, but this seems like a skating fan who is unhappy with Chen's scores and how close Uno is getting to the "superior" men.

 

[shyne]

You mean you actually tried to understand and explain PCS in terms of the technical handbook guidelines?

Look, PCS is correlated with skating skills plus quality of executed elements. The truth is PCS and TES are strongly correlated.

PCS = TES +/- skating skills +/- reputation +/- politics

The weights can differ per the skater, whether they're new or established, and their federation (whether they're powerful or a non-entity), but that's it. Nothing else to it.
..

Couldn't have said it better.
PCS are suppose to judge 5 different areas of skating. They are related, but they should not be batched together like they are now.

 

[GGFan]

I watched 2016 Worlds with a bunch of my fellow lawyer friends they all seemed to enjoy the sport and understood PCS was correlated and influenced by TES. Then I showed them the PCS guidelines and definitions and understood how one could easily argue with any sort of score even if it matched or didn't match the judges just because we see how vague a lot of the terminology is. Plus, we're used to judges having discretionary power and coming up with wildly different conclusions even when looking at the same black letter law.

Exactly! Add the time pressure and the amount of factors the judges are asked to assess and the system makes perfect sense.

 

[shine]

Before I start talking about controversial things that are surely going to lead to name-calling and some bitter back and forth, I'd like to congratulate Nathan Chen on an outstanding performance to win 4CC, as well as Hanyu and Uno for medaling.

For reference later on, here are the component scores from the free program.
Hanyu: 94.34= 9.46/9.25/9.54/9.46/9.46
Chan: 92.58= 9.25/9.18/9.14/9.29/9.43
Uno: 91.08= 9.11/8.96/9.04/9.18/9.25
Chen: 88.86= 9.00/8.75/8.89/8.93/8.86
Jin: 77.44= 8.04/7.43/7.64/7.82/7.79

I watched the free program with a friend who knows little about figure skating, but I explained to him beforehand how the system and scoring works. As he watched, he pointed out Chan and Hanyu as the best skaters in his eyes, with Uno a clear third and Chen and Jin further behind. He was also blown away by Nathan Chen's technical ability and Hanyu's technical quality.

When all the scores came up, he asked me about the component scores and for me to explain why:
1. There was only a four point gap between Chan and Chen's component scores;
2. Uno was so close to Chan and Hanyu;
3. Why Chen and Jin were 11 points apart.

He didn't ask those questions bitterly- he was genuinely curious. I couldn't really give him a valid answer to any of those questions, and I ended up just saying, "oh, when you do your technical stuff really well, you tend to get high artistic and skating skills marks as well." He was silent for a minute and said, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, how do your skating skills get better if you land jumps?" I couldn't really argue with that, so I said nothing, but he pressed me: "why do you watch a sport that judges like this?" I told him I watched to appreciate the skating and admire the performances, regardless of the scores and the controversies.

He accepted that answer, but is figure skating sending the wrong message, especially to new fans? There's been a problem with the way PCS has been judged for years now, but is the problem growing, and are there changes that need to be made? The quad revolution has had an amazing impact on the sport and I've been for the most part able to accept the PCS problem as a result, but I felt a bit embarrassed today to not have any legitimate response to the questions my friend had about why the judging was like this for a sport I love.

I didn't mean to harp on Chen or anything- I think he's super talented and what he's doing is unbelievable, and he seems like a down-to-earth guy. I was just a bit flustered at my inability to answer my friend's questions and wondered what you guys were thinking about the event and the sport as a whole.

How would a person who knows little about figures skating know that Chan and Hanyu are the best skaters followed by Uno? Sounds like something someone who has been reading the boards a lot would say. I would expect someone who knows little about figure skating to be impressed mostly by the quads.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

How would a person who knows little about figures skating know that Chan and Hanyu are the best skaters followed by Uno? Sounds like something someone who has been reading the boards a lot would say. I would expect someone who knows little about figure skating to be impressed mostly by the quads.

Thank goodness you said it. To me, this story is really fishy. If it's true, I'm sure there was a lot of editorializing going on as he was watching it shading how he was perceiving things. How does he know how to evaluate skating skills, transitions, what to look for in choreography (multi-directional skating, one-foot skating), etc.?

 

[skatinggold]

PCS is so subjective. You might like something and I might not like. You might think something is great which I think isn't. That's why there are 9 judge in a competition. It's a sport, jumps matter. I think most of the judges are more knowledgable than posters in this forum and the audiences.

 

[Daniel1998]

I watched 2016 Worlds with a bunch of my fellow lawyer friends they all seemed to enjoy the sport and understood PCS was correlated and influenced by TES. Then I showed them the PCS guidelines and definitions and understood how one could easily argue with any sort of score even if it matched or didn't match the judges just because we see how vague a lot of the terminology is. Plus, we're used to judges having discretionary power and coming up with wildly different conclusions even when looking at the same black letter law.

I sort of think your friend's question about why wasn't the PCS differential bigger between Chen and Chan/Hanyu and why was Uno's scores so close to Hanyu/Chan's and then why was there an 11 point difference between Chen and Jin seems to be questions skating fans would ask rather than a new person who wouldn't understand what is a good and what is a bad point differential in PCS is. I'm honestly sort of doubting some of this story. I apologize if it's completely true, but this seems like a skating fan who is unhappy with Chen's scores and how close Uno is getting to the "superior" men.

I purposely asked him to watch with me because he's a very numbers oriented person in general. He wasn't so keen on watching skating until I offered him the possibility of being able to analyze numbers and scores. I get that you may not trust some of what I said, though- the average person wouldn't be so sharp.
I'm also a big Uno fan, so I twitched a bit when he asked why his scores were so high. lol

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I purposely asked him to watch with me because he's a very numbers oriented person in general. He wasn't so keen on watching skating until I offered him the possibility of being able to analyze numbers and scores. I get that you may not trust some of what I said, though- the average person wouldn't be so sharp.
I'm also a big Uno fan, so I twitched a bit when he asked why his scores were so high. lol

Thank you for the response. It makes more sense to me now. I think with the way IJS was first sold to all of us 13 years ago, people really thought we'd see 20-30 point differentials in PCS between the top skaters, and of course we now know that 6-10 point PCS difference (that's a triple jump) is the most one can hope for though we have exceptions, like Boyang Jin's perfect performance receiving 17 points less in PCS to Patrick Chan at last year's 4CC. Of course, Patrick had to skate well to get that. Chan also nearly made up the 15 point base value deficit all in GOE.