4CC from the Perspective of an Outsider

[back2black]

The issue is that figure skating is the best combination of competitive sports and arts element, which are represented respectively on technical score and PCS

art is subjective, so will be PCS

would you ask questions like "is Van Gogh a better painter than Monet? "
would you give music a rating while listening to them?
do you need a score to know if a piece of painting or music is beautiful or not?

PCS is doing the impossible task of quantifying beauty which can't be numbered in the first place so it will not be accurate and all-convincing

still there are components can be seen and discussed

chan's transition and posture
hanyu's energy and execution

in a way they have become the standard, the measurement

for me, masculinity in a program is also important regarding male figure skating

at last, figure skating is still a business,like every pro-sports, not some charity event, ISU is like a big company, they need to sell their best product to as much as ppl possible

 

[Tahuu]

Before I start talking about controversial things that are surely going to lead to name-calling and some bitter back and forth, I'd like to congratulate Nathan Chen on an outstanding performance to win 4CC, as well as Hanyu and Uno for medaling.

For reference later on, here are the component scores from the free program.
Hanyu: 94.34= 9.46/9.25/9.54/9.46/9.46
Chan: 92.58= 9.25/9.18/9.14/9.29/9.43
Uno: 91.08= 9.11/8.96/9.04/9.18/9.25
Chen: 88.86= 9.00/8.75/8.89/8.93/8.86
Jin: 77.44= 8.04/7.43/7.64/7.82/7.79

I watched the free program with a friend who knows little about figure skating, but I explained to him beforehand how the system and scoring works. As he watched, he pointed out Chan and Hanyu as the best skaters in his eyes, with Uno a clear third and Chen and Jin further behind. He was also blown away by Nathan Chen's technical ability and Hanyu's technical quality.

When all the scores came up, he asked me about the component scores and for me to explain why:
1. There was only a four point gap between Chan and Chen's component scores;
2. Uno was so close to Chan and Hanyu;
3. Why Chen and Jin were 11 points apart.

He didn't ask those questions bitterly- he was genuinely curious. I couldn't really give him a valid answer to any of those questions, and I ended up just saying, "oh, when you do your technical stuff really well, you tend to get high artistic and skating skills marks as well." He was silent for a minute and said, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, how do your skating skills get better if you land jumps?" I couldn't really argue with that, so I said nothing, but he pressed me: "why do you watch a sport that judges like this?" I told him I watched to appreciate the skating and admire the performances, regardless of the scores and the controversies.

He accepted that answer, but is figure skating sending the wrong message, especially to new fans? There's been a problem with the way PCS has been judged for years now, but is the problem growing, and are there changes that need to be made? The quad revolution has had an amazing impact on the sport and I've been for the most part able to accept the PCS problem as a result, but I felt a bit embarrassed today to not have any legitimate response to the questions my friend had about why the judging was like this for a sport I love.

I didn't mean to harp on Chen or anything- I think he's super talented and what he's doing is unbelievable, and he seems like a down-to-earth guy. I was just a bit flustered at my inability to answer my friend's questions and wondered what you guys were thinking about the event and the sport as a whole.

Why didn't you tell your fictional friend, sister, mother or roommate that the judges indeed gave higher PCS to Yuzuru? It's so predictable and tiring to bickering over your fave's loss on his rising opponent's "inflated" PCS.

To those insisting that Nathan's PCS is inflated: Don't lie to yourself in public thinking you are better than trained judges. You better sing your "inflated PCS" lullaby in your bed so that you could kid yourself and have a better sleep.

 

[ranran]

Yeah, but Nathan isn't Rika Hongo. I'm just having trouble how someone who doesn't know anything about skating to even understand what those PCS categories mean to even provide an "accurate" score would know what a good point differential is and what is a bad one. It's just going by feeling. I think one can argue Nathan Chen's skating skills are top tier, even if they aren't on the level of Chan or Yuzuru's. His transitions in the LP aren't as strong as theirs either, but it's not as if Uno or the other men are much better. Reading PCS, transitions is very broadly defined as well.

It's sort of like when people think skating skills is only speed, but if you read the guidelines, you'll realize why some slower skaters actually deserve high SS marks and higher than some faster skaters.

I watch 4CC FS live with my staff and she didn't watch figure skating before but after watching all men with me she said Nathan seems stiff, mechanical or not low on his feet (her own way of describing~) while when Patrick skated despite his flaw she keep saying how beautiful and low movement are and that Yuzuru is low but seems a little bit guarded(later I told her that low is actually edge quality). When I showed her the protocol and explained what PCS is she gets it and frown looking at the PCS order. I'm just saying some people are very observant regardless if they know some particular sport or not. Don't underestimate people who don't follow the sport but knows what they are seeing. You might be surprise how many bright mind out there who could comprehend certain things just by a few glance.

 

[Mango]

Why are we attacking the OP instead of countering their points if we disagree with them?

 

[Barb]

I'm a ladies fan, but I've only really watched the men at 4CC, because the ladies field was weak. It's not a fair comparison, there weren't any big names in ladies at 4CC.

Well, so use GPF like example.

I disagree. Back when I knew a little about figure skating, I could not tell the difference between a triple and a quad. The only jumps I could distinguish was the axel because of it's take-off. Fluidity of a skate was the most obvious to a layman's eyes.

My sisters never know the difference between a type of triple to another or triple to quadruple, but they are always impressed with quads, whithout to know that they are seeing quads. The most of the times a quad is higher and last more, so, I guess is because of that. And I remember the first time my sister saw to Mao doing the 3a she was so impressed and she just said, why she jumps different?, I was like.. What do you mean?....., and she did not know explain it but her expession of amaze was with the 3a.

 

[teeannroo]

Completely agree. It took me a while to understand all the jumps and quads and triples looked the same to me. What drew me I was the aura and the grace that the skaters skated with, not the jumps, and I hope that won't be forgotten in the men's discipline as it continues to grow

 

[Osmond4gold]

Coming from my friends,..."Come on bud, it's Hockey Day in Canada...why are you so focusing on that skating stuff".

 

[Daniel1998]

Why are we attacking the OP instead of countering their points if we disagree with them?

Actually the response has been far more positive than I'd anticipated.

 

[Daniel1998]

"Come on bud, it's Hockey Day in Canada...why are you so focusing on that skating stuff".

Actually, he's a bigger curling fan than he is a hockey fan.

 

[OniBan]

honestly, you are lucky your friend cared.

here are a few reactions from my friends

1) all of it is boring
2) we don't get the difference between the jumps so how would we know what is good or not? was that a double or a quint?
3) that guy has a very nice butt

same here. with my (non skating fan friends) it's always : omg I can't stop looking at that butt

=___=

 

[Barb]

Actually, he's a bigger curling fan than he is a hockey fan.

:yawn:

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Daniel, I really admire your bravery for posting this, given how obvious it would be that the response would be "meh meh, that's not even true".

Truly, only skating skills and transitions can be evaluated quickly, so those components drive the remaining components. And what colors the judges' impressions of skating skills and transitions? That's right, the quality of the executed elements.

Uhm if SS and TR can apparently be evaluated quickly, why is it still unrelated stuff that 'colors' that impression of them? And what has the height of a jump (as an aspect of quality) to do with SS? If a judge can't differentiate between these 2 things, maybe they shouldn't judge.

Thank goodness you said it. To me, this story is really fishy. If it's true, I'm sure there was a lot of editorializing going on as he was watching it shading how he was perceiving things. How does he know how to evaluate skating skills, transitions, what to look for in choreography (multi-directional skating, one-foot skating), etc.?

What kind of high ranking education do I have to have to be able to deduce for myself that skating fast is probably good, and that skating on one foot is more difficult then on both? Or was the point that a 'normal' person couldn't tell the difference between one- and two-foot skating?

I'm not going to even try mention my own experiences with non FS fans, since I sadly didn't tape it, collect their signatures as proof of previous Figure Skating virginity or can provide eye-witnesses. But maybe 'normal' people are simply not all that dumb.

If a skater does a transition into a triple loop. And Hanyu does a transition into a quad loop. Don't you think Hanyu deserves a MUCH much higher score. in transitions. Because he did a transition into a harder element.

If one skater skates with skate and power and lands triples. And another skates with speed and power and land quads. Doesn't the person who skated with skate and power landing quads. Deserve higher skating skills, because they can skate with speed and power AND land harder elements. Its difficult to skate with speed and power and land hard elements. Easier to skate with speed and power and land doubles.

In transitions in general. Something tells me Nathan Chan could probably easily do transitions into triples. Considering he lands quads so easily. So should a skater really be getting huge PCS for doing transitions into easy elements? Shouldn't there be some leadway. for a skater who is going out and doing what no man has ever done before. 5 quads? Since this is well a sport?

As for the first part: yes, doing a spread eagle into a 4Lo is more difficult than into a 3Lo. And that is evaluated in GOE, because a 4Lo has a higher range for that than a 3Lo, and that spread eagle into it is considered for GOE. Yuzu gets a higher reward for doing that spread eagle into his 4Lo than another skater does for a spread eagle into a 3Lo, without it being taken into consideration in the PCS. So he is being rewarded for it in TES.

As for the rest: you can turn all of that around. Two skaters jump quads. One skater has a lot of transitions, the other skater has not. Doesn't the first skater have it way more difficult to land his quads? Yes, he does. But if we raise PCS just because there are quads in there, the first skater will automatically lose out on the reward he should be getting for more transitions (at least partly). Because this is a two-way street. Doing more quads makes transitions more difficult. But doing more transitions also makes quads more difficult. (Doing more transitions/choreo also makes triples more difficult, but I guess I better don't go there) Yet for whatever reason, you are stuck on only rewarding one of them. Why?
(And when I say transition here, I do not mainly mean the ones into and out of jumps. I mean that stuff that theoretically happens during the rest of the program.)

Yes, quad jumps are much harder than triples, they make the rest of the program more difficult. Which is why they are having a way higher BV. If that is the only factor anyway, only hand out BV and get rid of GOE & PCS.

And for the beloved "this is a sport argument": Yes. It is Figure skating - part of the athletic aspect here are blade/edge control, balance, generating/varying/controlling speed... does none of that sound in the least, well, sport-like? Even if you reduce Figure skating just down to the sport aspect, than it is still not only about the jumps.

 

[bekalc]

Daniel, I really admire your bravery for posting this, given how obvious it would be that the response would be "meh meh, that's not even true".



Uhm if SS and TR can apparently be evaluated quickly, why is it still unrelated stuff that 'colors' that impression of them? And what has the height of a jump (as an aspect of quality) to do with SS? If a judge can't differentiate between these 2 things, maybe they shouldn't judge.





What kind of high ranking education do I have to have to be able to deduce for myself that skating fast is probably good, and that skating on one foot is more difficult then on both? Or was the point that a 'normal' person couldn't tell the difference between one- and two-foot skating?

I'm not going to even try mention my own experiences with non FS fans, since I sadly didn't tape it, collect their signatures as proof of previous Figure Skating virginity or can provide eye-witnesses. But maybe 'normal' people are simply not all that dumb.



As for the first part: yes, doing a spread eagle into a 4Lo is more difficult than into a 3Lo. And that is evaluated in GOE, because a 4Lo has a higher range for that than a 3Lo, and that spread eagle into it is considered for GOE. Yuzu gets a higher reward for doing that spread eagle into his 4Lo than another skater does for a spread eagle into a 3Lo, without it being taken into consideration in the PCS. So he is being rewarded for it in TES.

As for the rest: you can turn all of that around. Two skaters jump quads. One skater has a lot of transitions, the other skater has not. Doesn't the first skater have it way more difficult to land his quads? Yes, he does. But if we raise PCS just because there are quads in there, the first skater will automatically lose out on the reward he should be getting for more transitions (at least partly). Because this is a two-way street. Doing more quads makes transitions more difficult. But doing more transitions also makes quads more difficult. (Doing more transitions/choreo also makes triples more difficult, but I guess I better don't go there) Yet for whatever reason, you are stuck on only rewarding one of them. Why?
(And when I say transition here, I do not mainly mean the ones into and out of jumps. I mean that stuff that theoretically happens during the rest of the program.)

Yes, quad jumps are much harder than triples, they make the rest of the program more difficult. Which is why they are having a way higher BV. If that is the only factor anyway, only hand out BV and get rid of GOE & PCS.

And for the beloved "this is a sport argument": Yes. It is Figure skating - part of the athletic aspect here are blade/edge control, balance, generating/varying/controlling speed... does none of that sound in the least, well, sport-like? Even if you reduce Figure skating just down to the sport aspect, than it is still not only about the jumps.

Yes its sport like. And what most people woud disagree with is the idea that Chen doesn't have good skating skills. He does-look at the easy he does level four footwork. I don't think any of the men doing huge amount of quads are doing lots of transitions in and out of their quads. The quads take to much energy.

But the point is that if Hanyu was doing only triples, he would be chocked full of them. People were saying when Chen was a novice he was doing tons. So I don't think its wise to over reward someone who is doing way easier programs.

 

[somnius96]

I don't know about others, but i've shown skating videos to some of my friends who have no idea about the sport and they can hardly spot the difference between a quad and a triple, they have to be told most of the time. What they have taken away is usually related to the performance of the skater and how pleasing they are to watch. From what i've seen a person who watches for the first time is usually more impressed by moves in the field (like shomas cantiliver or hanyus ina bauer), even fast spins or the height of a jump, rather than someone doing a quad lutz or loop, since they have no idea what those are.

 

[Krislite]

Uhm if SS and TR can apparently be evaluated quickly, why is it still unrelated stuff that 'colors' that impression of them? And what has the height of a jump (as an aspect of quality) to do with SS? If a judge can't differentiate between these 2 things, maybe they shouldn't judge.

But the PCS distinction was noted by the judges in the event. Chen wasn't even in the top 3 for program components despite skating last and having the highest TES, and Hanyu had more than double the GOE points than Chen. People are really arguing over a much narrower point, which is what that marginal difference should be among the top skaters. With the factoring by 2 and PCS being roughly just 50% of a program's total score, you'd have to have a fairly big spread of PCS scores to make a difference.

General inflation of PCS and a maximum of 10 means compression of PCS variance among the top. Lower variance means it becomes less and less of a determining factor in competition. The only way out is to increase the top end and refactor, say 0 to 12 and factor by 1.7 (instead of 2). But is there any reason to think that PCS wouldn't creep up again?

 

[shine]

Daniel, I really admire your bravery for posting this, given how obvious it would be that the response would be "meh meh, that's not even true".



Uhm if SS and TR can apparently be evaluated quickly, why is it still unrelated stuff that 'colors' that impression of them? And what has the height of a jump (as an aspect of quality) to do with SS? If a judge can't differentiate between these 2 things, maybe they shouldn't judge.



What kind of high ranking education do I have to have to be able to deduce for myself that skating fast is probably good, and that skating on one foot is more difficult then on both? Or was the point that a 'normal' person couldn't tell the difference between one- and two-foot skating?

You don't need a high ranking education to be able to deduce something like that when it's SPELLED OUT on paper for you. But if you are watching it as it happens as a person who's completely new to figure skating, you probably wouldn't even notice or pay attention to the amount of one foot vs two foot skating. Also, if you just read the boards without watching or knowing anything about figure skating, you'd probably get the impression that Chen is some kind of truck driver with no grace or SS, when in contrary he's a pretty exceptional skater for his age in his own right even without the quads. In fact, that's what he was always known for before the quads came along, and he has made strides in presentation since those days too. Sure, he may not be at Chan or Hanyu's level overall, but is the difference so stark that a first time watcher can pin point and articulate so distinctly? I highly doubt it.

 

[slider11]

The difference in the way technical and performance scores are given is very frustrating to me. I appreciate and applaud Chen, Hanyu and Jin with their quads and outstanding technical scores. Well deserved. On the flip, Patrick Chan and Jason Brown do not deserve those high technical marks when they don't land those quads. BUT, I don't agree that the techno-experts come any where close in expression and performance to the P.Chan/Brown group. So why are those performance skills so close to Chan/Brown? Ok, I guess you have to have good skating skills to land jumps. But look at the way that Patrick skims over the ice with such a flow and the way that Jason projects to the audience. I wish the ISU would have a candid conversation with judges and provide further guidance to correct this. It ultimately may not make a difference in rankings as the quad-kings are dominating but it would be an acknowledgement that good skating is more than jumps.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Yes its sport like. And what most people woud disagree with is the idea that Chen doesn't have good skating skills. He does-look at the easy he does level four footwork. I don't think any of the men doing huge amount of quads are doing lots of transitions in and out of their quads. The quads take to much energy.

But the point is that if Hanyu was doing only triples, he would be chocked full of them. People were saying when Chen was a novice he was doing tons. So I don't think its wise to over reward someone who is doing way easier programs.

Nathan does have good skating skills, but there is a reason this is a scale, not black and white. His SS are good, not very good and not great. The fact that he does more quads than Patrick Chan doesn't change anything about the SS difference that is also there. And moreso, SS need to be rewarded throughout the whole program, because it is constant work throughout a whole program to show them off. Not just in the last 30 sec, not just 'oh, we know you have good SS in general, you just get the points despite not showing them off right now'. You don't do 1 quad and get the BV for 4 either, right? Skating skills includes 'mastery of one foot skating'. If there is no one foot skating, there is none, no matter how many quads there are. And yes, if you just compare to Patrick/Yuzu, Nathan has very little one foot skating. That is an athletic aspect of this sport and needs to be evaluated. Instead of having the PCS category SS being BV number 2 in disguise. And this isn't even touching transition, the actually really troublesome category.
And I don't get it - you specifically mentioned Yuzus spread eagle 4Lo. Now 'no men has a lot of transition into their quads'? No, that's wrong. Yuzu for example does. His SP is chock full with transitions, as you partly mentioned yourself before I'm also not sure what 'overrewarding a way easier program is supposed to be'. So again, transitions don't do anything for you in terms of adding to program difficulty?

But the PCS distinction was noted by the judges in the event. Chen wasn't even in the top 3 for program components despite skating last and having the highest TES, and Hanyu had more than double the GOE points than Chen. People are really arguing over a much narrower point, which is what that marginal difference should be among the top skaters. With the factoring by 2 and PCS being roughly just 50% of a program's total score, you'd have to have a fairly big spread of PCS scores to make a difference.

General inflation of PCS and a maximum of 10 means compression of PCS variance among the top. Lower variance means it becomes less and less of a determining factor in competition. The only way out is to increase the top end and refactor, say 0 to 12 and factor by 1.7 (instead of 2). But is there any reason to think that PCS wouldn't creep up again?

For me, you are still excusing the problem with the problem itself. The top guys are being scored too crowded at the top to give credit to the actual differences that are there. There. That's the point. That is not an explanation for anything, that is a problem.
Also, marginal difference? Everyone who lands quads is a top guy in PCS? IMO, you make it sound as if people should only look at higher or lower, and not at margins. But you can make the argument that, as mentioned several times in the 4CC LP thread, Nathan being closer to Patrick/Yuzuru than to Boyang is wrong. But this is supposed to be a non issue just because generally the order is right? And obviously, in this case the PCS range to differentiate is there. After all, there are 11 points between Nathan and Boyang.

 

[bekalc]

Nathan does have good skating skills, but there is a reason this is a scale, not black and white. His SS are good, not very good and not great. The fact that he does more quads than Patrick Chan doesn't change anything about the SS difference that is also there. And moreso, SS need to be rewarded throughout the whole program, because it is constant work throughout a whole program to show them off. Not just in the last 30 sec, not just 'oh, we know you have good SS in general, you just get the points despite not showing them off right now'. You don't do 1 quad and get the BV for 4 either, right? Skating skills includes 'mastery of one foot skating'. If there is no one foot skating, there is none, no matter how many quads there are. And yes, if you just compare to Patrick/Yuzu, Nathan has very little one foot skating. That is an athletic aspect of this sport and needs to be evaluated. Instead of having the PCS category SS being BV number 2 in disguise. And this isn't even touching transition, the actually really troublesome category.
And I don't get it - you specifically mentioned Yuzus spread eagle 4Lo. Now 'no men has a lot of transition into their quads'? No, that's wrong. Yuzu for example does. His SP is chock full with transitions, as you partly mentioned yourself before I'm also not sure what 'overrewarding a way easier program is supposed to be'. So again, transitions don't do anything for you in terms of adding to program difficulty?



For me, you are still excusing the problem with the problem itself. The top guys are being scored too crowded at the top to give credit to the actual differences that are there. There. That's the point. That is not an explanation for anything, that is a problem.
Also, marginal difference? Everyone who lands quads is a top guy in PCS? IMO, you make it sound as if people should only look at higher or lower, and not at margins. But you can make the argument that, as mentioned several times in the 4CC LP thread, Nathan being closer to Patrick/Yuzuru than to Boyang is wrong. But this is supposed to be a non issue just because generally the order is right? And obviously, in this case the PCS range to differentiate is there. After all, there are 11 points between Nathan and Boyang.

Hanyu's short program has transitions. But the long not as much. Chen's short program has more content too. Once again 5 quads takes a lot mentally and physically.

 

[andromache]

Boyang's performance was a mess - no way a mostly clean skate like Nathan's should score PCS-wise like Boyang's. Falls, mistakes, etc. ruin the performance, interpretation, choreography. Elements don't happen in a vacuum that is somehow separate from the rest of the program. Mistakes kind of ruin the artistic impact, right?

Had Boyang skated cleanly, I suspect his PCS would've been much closer to Nathan's.