4CC from the Perspective of an Outsider

[Daniel1998]

Thank you for the response. It makes more sense to me now. I think with the way IJS was first sold to all of us 13 years ago, people really thought we'd see 20-30 point differentials in PCS between the top skaters, and of course we now know that 6-10 point PCS difference (that's a triple jump) is the most one can hope for.

Yes, I think the longer a system is held in place, the more its flaws are highlighted and the more we think we need change. This is a difficult sport to get right all the time.

 

[alvina9894]

How would a person who knows little about figures skating know that Chan and Hanyu are the best skaters followed by Uno? Sounds like something someone who has been reading the boards a lot would say. I would expect someone who knows little about figure skating to be impressed mostly by the quads.

I disagree. Back when I knew a little about figure skating, I could not tell the difference between a triple and a quad. The only jumps I could distinguish was the axel because of it's take-off. Fluidity of a skate was the most obvious to a layman's eyes.

 

[4everchan]

honestly, you are lucky your friend cared.

here are a few reactions from my friends

1) all of it is boring
2) we don't get the difference between the jumps so how would we know what is good or not? was that a double or a quint?
3) that guy has a very nice butt

 

[bekalc]

But this is exactly what my friend thought was ridiculous. We may be used to the current judging system from experience, having followed the sport for a while, but I only realized today how absurd it must sound to newcomers that the scores aren't given via the technical handbook guidelines but through things like politics and reputation.

If a skater does a transition into a triple loop. And Hanyu does a transition into a quad loop. Don't you think Hanyu deserves a MUCH much higher score. in transitions. Because he did a transition into a harder element.

If one skater skates with skate and power and lands triples. And another skates with speed and power and land quads. Doesn't the person who skated with skate and power landing quads. Deserve higher skating skills, because they can skate with speed and power AND land harder elements. Its difficult to skate with speed and power and land hard elements. Easier to skate with speed and power and land doubles.

In transitions in general. Something tells me Nathan Chan could probably easily do transitions into triples. Considering he lands quads so easily. So should a skater really be getting huge PCS for doing transitions into easy elements? Shouldn't there be some leadway. for a skater who is going out and doing what no man has ever done before. 5 quads? Since this is well a sport?

 

[Krislite]

Yes, I think the longer a system is held in place, the more its flaws are highlighted and the more we think we need change. This is a difficult sport to get right all the time.

In the past with 6.0, the scores were utterly inscrutable because we only got one number for presentation and one number for technical merit.

Now we give people five numbers in PCS and a GOE score for every element in TES, and people are still not happy. I don't think it will ever change.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Yes, I think the longer a system is held in place, the more its flaws are highlighted and the more we think we need change. This is a difficult sport to get right all the time.

Do you think it's because the system is designed for all levels, including the lowest of the low not even in seniors, where PCS in the 1.0s-3.0s may be more common is why senior competitors don't often get scores lower than 5.0? At a senior level 4CC/Euros/Worlds, we don't really see skaters ranked 24th-16th get PCS scores lower than 5, which means the better than average skaters usually get scores in the 6-8s, which means the top skaters who have showcased better skills otherwise they wouldn't be top skaters can't don't usually get transition scores or interpretation scores in the 6.0s or lower even if one could argue they deserve them.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

In transitions in general. Something tells me Nathan Chan could probably easily do transitions into triples. Considering he lands quads so easily. So should a skater really be getting huge PCS for doing transitions into easy elements? Shouldn't there be some leadway. for a skater who is going out and doing what no man has ever done before. 5 quads? Since this is well a sport?

Nathan Chen's Novice level LP was full of choreography and displayed incredible skating skills for that age (even compared to some senior men now), so I don't doubt he's capable of much better programs if he wasn't doing 5 quads and level 4 spins and footwork. The fact that Chen does level 4 footwork and does it with high quality is also a showcase for his skating skills and is an example of TES and PCS being correlated.

 

[Interspectator]

I think it's possible for beginner observers to spot difference in Skating skills right away.
My dad doesn't like figureskating much, but he glanced at Rika and Gracie while passing through a room where I was watching and said right away that Gracie's skating is good I think she'll win, and Rika, is she injured? she's going slow. I remember that Gracie was having an off day and Rika did her program okay, but he still spotted a difference in skating quality.

 

[sarama]

We all knew Nathan's PCS would skyrocket along with his TES, but still it's disappointing, because Nathan is an excellent skater who won't be encouraged to improve in PCS by these scores, which is a shame:confused2:

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Yeah, but Nathan isn't Rika Hongo. I'm just having trouble how someone who doesn't know anything about skating to even understand what those PCS categories mean to even provide an "accurate" score would know what a good point differential is and what is a bad one. It's just going by feeling. I think one can argue Nathan Chen's skating skills are top tier, even if they aren't on the level of Chan or Yuzuru's. His transitions in the LP aren't as strong as theirs either, but it's not as if Uno or the other men are much better. Reading PCS, transitions is very broadly defined as well.

It's sort of like when people think skating skills is only speed, but if you read the guidelines, you'll realize why some slower skaters actually deserve high SS marks and higher than some faster skaters.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

We all knew Nathan's PCS would skyrocket along with his TES, but still it's disappointing, because Nathan is an excellent skater who won't be encouraged to improve in PCS by these scores, which is a shame:confused2:

Well, he is going to improve. The best competitors always look to improve. He wouldn't have gone to Marina Zoueva if he didn't want to improve. I think skating fans can be very short-sighted when it comes to skaters and what they work on and how they want to develop.

 

[sarama]

Well, he is going to improve. The best competitors always look to improve. He wouldn't have gone to Marina Zoueva if he didn't want to improve. I think skating fans can be very short-sighted when it comes to skaters and what they work on and how they want to develop.

You are right, but he won't be as motivated

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

You are right, but he won't be as motivated

Well, neither of us know him to make an assessment on how motivated he is. I guess you're right in that it'd be safe to say if he was receiving 7.0s for PCS then he'd be more motivated...or frustrated with the sport and think it's a sham since many could see the judges using PCS to hold down a skater and make them wait their turn which many fans accuse judges of doing oftentimes.

 

[Krislite]

We all knew Nathan's PCS would skyrocket along with his TES, but still it's disappointing, because Nathan is an excellent skater who won't be encouraged to improve in PCS by these scores, which is a shame:confused2:

He scored behind Hanyu, Shoma, and Patrick Chan in PCS, and just barely higher than Jason Brown who has no quads. Why would he not be motivated to improve?

 

[bekalc]

You are right, but he won't be as motivated

Why wouldn't he be motivated? I remember last year everyone was saying Hanyu was unbeatable? And now look at what we have this year. There's no guarantee for Nathan that next year Hanyu won't be throwing in quad lutz in the long?

I would imagine Nathan would be very motivated to improve and not hand over free points to Hanyu. I think right now though he's focusing on first getting someone consistent with 5 freaking quads.

And you know something I appreciate about Nathan. Is Nathan's tech content is something he clearly can do. He's not going out there ands planning on quad falls to win points. He's throwing content he's mastered. I appreciate that. It's refreshing compared to the likes of a lot of other top men.

 

[gourry]

How would a person who knows little about figures skating know that Chan and Hanyu are the best skaters followed by Uno? Sounds like something someone who has been reading the boards a lot would say. I would expect someone who knows little about figure skating to be impressed mostly by the quads.

I think I can say a little about this. I watch figure skating with my hubby sometimes, and he knows nothing about this sports. When he sees jumps, he wouldn't be able to tell if it is a really smallish quad or huge triple let alone what kind of jump it is except Axel. If I don't tell him, most of the times he wouldn't know if it was a quad. So doing quads itself is not really noticeable or the most impressive thing for him. (Of course impressive quads will impress him.) But he can tell if someone is fast or not. Or if someone moves better than others. For example, he couldn't pinpoint what it was, but found Patrick Chan very fluid.
By the way he likes Ashley Wagner the most among US ladies. So I think performance side is the easiest part to notice for new audience. That and not falling.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think I can say a little about this. I watch figure skating with my hubby sometimes, and he knows nothing about this sports. When he sees jumps, he wouldn't be able to tell if it is a really smallish quad or huge triple let alone what kind of jump it is except Axel. If I don't tell him, most of the times he wouldn't know if it was a quad. So doing quads itself is not really noticeable or the most impressive thing for him. (Of course impressive quads will impress him.) But he can tell if someone is fast or not. Or if someone moves better than others. And he likes Ashley Wagner the most among US ladies. So I think performance side is the easiest part to notice for new audience. That and not falling.

And I'm sure if it was up to him, Ashley would receive the highest SS, transition, and choreography scores, right? If we're all worried about new viewer perception, then we can't argue that she wouldn't deserve them if she has the highest approval from such viewers. It seems people want to revamp the scoring system and use supposed non-fan friends' opinions to get the results they want as justification.

Maybe we'll all be happy if Vanessa Riley taught all the judges:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt0QKNCoqA

 

[Violet Bliss]

I purposely asked him to watch with me because he's a very numbers oriented person in general. He wasn't so keen on watching skating until I offered him the possibility of being able to analyze numbers and scores. I get that you may not trust some of what I said, though- the average person wouldn't be so sharp.
I'm also a big Uno fan, so I twitched a bit when he asked why his scores were so high. lol

To casual fans of figure skating who watch a competition, there are only two scores, Technical and Presentation, the same as always from the 6.0 era. They have very little technical knowledge to differentiate different jumps, even the numbers of revolutions, let alone about correct and cheated take off and landing, etc. Presentation OTOH means artistry, i.e. how a performance appeals to them. The 4CC videographer is probably a very good representative casual fan. I figure they probably just trust the TES given but have strong beliefs on PCS/presentation marks based on their own perception and enjoyment of the performances.

You must have done a very good job of explaining the scoring to your friend who also happens to be a very keen and perceptive observer of the performances. I am really impressed with his assessments of these skaters being so in line with those of the knowledgeable skating fans, as well as the judges as far as ranking is concerned. It is the degrees of differences between skaters that have stirred protests and debates about the system. Kudos to your friend for the eye for artistry and fine skills and being so immediately tuned in about the nuances. It also concerns me about how figure skating is viewed and judged by the general public if such controversial scoring can be so readily observed and perceived by a discerning newbie.

 

[largeman]

3) that guy has a very nice butt

I thought Max Aaron wasn't at 4CC this year.
You're referring to their reactions from a previous competition, right

 

[4everchan]

I thought Max Aaron wasn't at 4CC this year.
You're referring to their reactions from a previous competition, right

there are so many nice butts in figure skating LOL....

but no this was from canadian nationals