Ladies' SP
- Thread starter MikiAndoFan#1
- Start date
I just don't get why the scores have to go up as time goes for the sake of breaking records. In my opinion, Yuna has much better performances in the past and same with Mao. However, the scores weren't so high back then, which really shows how subjective this system is. :sheesh: Records shouldn't be so easily broken even by the same skater.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
can't agree more! The judging is not consistant for the girls in SP, which is really doing damage to this sport.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
That really bugs me too. She is such a fierce skater and her jumps are definitely among the best. I wonder whether this anything to do that she doesn't have a strong skating federation behind her.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
The Koreans thought the Gold was a given for Yu-Na, so she signed her endorsement deals BEFORE the Olympics... but they have reserved the rights to take away those endorsement deals if she doesn't produce the OGM. So it is different... instead of that money being a possibility upon winning (Mao and Miki's case), Yu-Na already has it and will lose it if she doesn't. That's a HUGE difference mentally.
I love that side by side comparison because now I am convinced that what I saw between the two was not a 5 point difference. Much of the program was exactly the same as far as layout, order of elements, etc. How bizarre. The 3/3 combo was better than the 3/2 combo, but that's not been argued. The question is how much better. In fact, I believe Joannie's triple lutz was a little wonky in her combo but she still got a +1..... strange. Mao at least then deserved a +1 for her 3/2 combo. It was perfectly acceptable and well done.
The laybacks are about the same at the end of the day - what one lacks the other has and vice versa.
The spiral sequences - Mao's a little more difficult considering her edge change came with a hold in a diff. position with no wobble at all.. it was very secure. The shape and size of the seq. were pretty much the same for both girls so speed was not a discernable factor. The ice coverage was about the same, the positions similar. I would give Mao the edge on line for that one.
The rest of the jumps and spins were pretty much the same - not enough difference either way for a big point discrepancy.
Footwork for Mao was definitely more difficult and full - already reflected in the marks.
Basically the same program..... oh the horror..... I think skating will kill itself if programs continue to be designed this way - THE SAME. It's like watching the compulsory dance... yikes.....
The laybacks are about the same at the end of the day - what one lacks the other has and vice versa.
The spiral sequences - Mao's a little more difficult considering her edge change came with a hold in a diff. position with no wobble at all.. it was very secure. The shape and size of the seq. were pretty much the same for both girls so speed was not a discernable factor. The ice coverage was about the same, the positions similar. I would give Mao the edge on line for that one.
The rest of the jumps and spins were pretty much the same - not enough difference either way for a big point discrepancy.
Footwork for Mao was definitely more difficult and full - already reflected in the marks.
Basically the same program..... oh the horror..... I think skating will kill itself if programs continue to be designed this way - THE SAME. It's like watching the compulsory dance... yikes.....
OK I'm sorry if my tone's a little frustrated and strained, but I had to say this so many times today that it gives me a headache: GOE is not given based on how well a judge thinks a jump is. This is totally subjective. As part of making CoP more "objective", judges were given a checklist. This is there for anyone to see, even Mao.
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets
1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure
There's detailed discussion here:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?31255-Stojko-opposes-the-ladies-result/page14
Personally, I thought Mao's combo should've received greater GOE, but I guess it comes down to that potentially-URed 2Toe. One poster noted that it's much more difficult to get high GOEs for combinations because both jumps must be of exceptional quality. I'm not sure. We don't always agree with the judges.
But that checklist is subjective as well. If it weren't subjective, why do different judges give different GOE? It's all subjective, just because it comes in "checklist form" doesn't make it less subjective. It's still based on assumptions and estimates. Sort of like economics...(I get to say that because I was an econ major 
)
)But that checklist is subjective as well. If it weren't subjective, why do different judges give different GOE? It's all subjective, just because it comes in "checklist form" doesn't make it less subjective. It's still based on assumptions and estimates. Sort of like economics...(I get to say that because I was an econ major
Yes, I know. That's why I put objectivity in parentheses, as I believe there's no such thing as objectivity
. I'm just saying this is what the rules say. GOE is not just based on "oh that's a good jump." There are certain qualities that judges are asked to look for. This takes it a step closer to objectivity. Exactly how close it is is another matter of contention. I just don't like seeing people put out GOE figures without an explanation of what exactly was so great about that jump or knowledge of what the judges are actually asked to look for. That's all I don't believe Yuna will lose $8 million if she doesn't win a OGM, that would require her to lose all her sponsors. She will make more money whether she wins OGM or not. If she wins, her status will go up. If she doesn't, everyone will expect her to continue to 2014. And all along the way she will continue to do what she has been doing and sponsors will stay with her. She is 19 she has at least one more OG in her.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I think it more has to do with that she's an inconsistent competitor. She's back on the upswing now, but she bombed badly at Europeans last year and did not qualify for the FS, then bombed the LP at Jr. Worlds last year after being in 1st after the SP, and finished 7th and 6th in her two GP events this year. After those kinds of results the judges will often give a skater lower marks as it seems they have regressed (eg Kimmie, Emily, Tomas)
I'd say she's a bit under the radar, and once she becomes more consistent her scores will go up. She's good and now she's starting to prove that. She was 10th at worlds last year, won bronze at this past Euros, and will likely place top 10 at these Olympics so that should help her in the future. I agree she is a great jumper and always has interesting programs.
Just because I said the jump was well done doesn't mean I don't know that there is a list of bullet points that judges have to decide whether to give an element bonus points.
I just don't like writing out all the specific bullet points every time because then I have to look it up to make sure it's correct so no one (else) jumps down my throat for supposedly not knowing anything.
I said the jump was well done meaning this: effortless and timed with the music (it completes the phrase). The next time you feel frustration because you think I don't know something, you can just ask....?
hwell:Also although there is a list of bullet points, the amount of them needed to give bonus points is not written in stone in the ISU communication:
"To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion
of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:
FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets"
So as you can see, a skater can get one bullet and be given a +2 if the judge so desires.
To me, the jumping pass was effortless and timed to the music (finished the phrase). That's 2 bullets and I would be well within the rules to give her a +2 if I wished. I would probably have given her a +1.
And yes, it's totally subjective despite the list as the other poster has commented. Some judges will give a +2 and another will give a 0. How is that possible...? It's shoddy.
Sorry I overreactedJust because I said the jump was well done doesn't mean I don't know that there is a list of bullet points that judges have to decide whether to give an element bonus points.
I just don't like writing out all the specific bullet points every time because then I have to look it up to make sure it's correct so no one (else) jumps down my throat for supposedly not knowing anything.
I said the jump was well done meaning this: effortless and timed with the music (it completes the phrase). The next time you feel frustration because you think I don't know something, you can just ask....?
I didn't mean you in particular. I'm sorry I ever singled you out. I was giving so many explanations to people here and there after the SP that I just got constipated. I had to let it out, put the explanation somewhere for people to see, and you just happened to have included something on GOE. Yeah, bad excuse :scowl: I know. I also want to point out that I didn't say you didn't have the knowledge; I didn't make such an assumption on my part. I said: "I just don't like seeing people put out GOE figures without an explanation of what exactly was so great about that jump or knowledge of what the judges are actually asked to look for." You are in the former. The vast majority of people I had to explain to were in the latter. If I had said "and" instead of "or" now that would've been a different story. I'm sorry I didn't make that very clear. Forgive me?
Well in an effort to balance that out, the highest and lowest GOE scores are removed. In general, GOE given tends to be similar (Mao got five 1s, one 2 and three 0s). You said you would've given her a +1. That would've been my score as well. That was the score of five out of nine judges. I don't think too many judges are deliberately making use of that loophole in the ISU communication. I always thought the bullet-number thing was a requirement. Thanks for elucidating. I know that GOE-giving is subjective, but this just makes it a little less subjective, I guess. At least there's a guideline, proving people who think it's a simple reward for what looks like a good jump wrong.
Sorry I overreacted
No problem! :thumbsup:
I also want to point out that I didn't say you didn't have the knowledge; I didn't make such an assumption on my part. I said: "I just don't like seeing people put out GOE figures without an explanation of what exactly was so great about that jump or knowledge of what the judges are actually asked to look for." You are in the former. The vast majority of people I had to explain to were in the latter. If I had said "and" instead of "or" now that would've been a different story. I'm sorry I didn't make that very clear. Forgive me?
Done!
You are right about one thing - it is an EFFORT to balance out the discrepancies in GOE's. There is just so much room with it since it's so open to preference.
Mao got the +1 from 5 out of 9 but because of the mean and the dropping of the highs and lows, she gets 0.6 - perhaps she was unlucky in the random selection of judges.....?
That would be even more of a shame..... :think:
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just oneBut that checklist is subjective as well. If it weren't subjective, why do different judges give different GOE? It's all subjective, just because it comes in "checklist form" doesn't make it less subjective. It's still based on assumptions and estimates. Sort of like economics...(I get to say that because I was an econ major
To add more subjectivity, as stated in communication 1557 "it is at the discretion of each judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrades", the 2,4,6 bullets thing is a recommendation :-OAnyway, as I judge I find this guideline for marking +GOE a good instrument we did not have 2 years ago, although of course we used "unconsciously" the same criteria, now it is just written down for all to see
but of course it remains subjective...but do we want machines to be introduced as judges?The "problem" with mao's 3A is that she has good hight but not good distance, thus, she does not get bullet nr. 4 from most judges, and although the 8 criteria are presented as equivalent in their value, height AND distance is probably what we look more at to decide about the +1, +2 etc, in other words if the jump does not have good height AND distance it is unlikely that it is going to get more than +1. THis is at least my experience as a judge
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just one
Anyway, as I judge I find this guideline for marking +GOE a good instrument we did not have 2 years ago, although of course we used "unconsciously" the same criteria, now it is just written down for all to see
Not a bad idea... At least we know the judges all have the same preferences and mind frame
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just one
Anyway, as I judge I find this guideline for marking +GOE a good instrument we did not have 2 years ago, although of course we used "unconsciously" the same criteria, now it is just written down for all to see
What about attaching electric sensors to every skater's skate to measure the rotation angle accuratly lol.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2009
ehdtkqorl123
There is no need to attach anything. A special camera like that used for Microsoft's project Natal would do the job. But the development would cost a lot of money.
There is no need to attach anything. A special camera like that used for Microsoft's project Natal would do the job. But the development would cost a lot of money.
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