I just don't get why the scores have to go up as time goes for the sake of breaking records. In my opinion, Yuna has much better performances in the past and same with Mao. However, the scores weren't so high back then, which really shows how subjective this system is. :sheesh: Records shouldn't be so easily broken even by the same skater.
:disapp:
Put that way, Mao and Miki have a lot to lose by not winning OGM, no? It's the same for all skaters.
The 3/3 combo was better than the 3/2 combo, but that's not been argued. The question is how much better. In fact, I believe Joannie's triple lutz was a little wonky in her combo but she still got a +1..... strange. Mao at least then deserved a +1 for her 3/2 combo. It was perfectly acceptable and well done.
But that checklist is subjective as well. If it weren't subjective, why do different judges give different GOE? It's all subjective, just because it comes in "checklist form" doesn't make it less subjective. It's still based on assumptions and estimates. Sort of like economics...(I get to say that because I was an econ major )
Actually, without the OGM Yu-Na might lose up to 8 million dollars in endorsements... of course those are companies and not the general public, but that is a lot to lose.
That really bugs me too. She is such a fierce skater and her jumps are definitely among the best. I wonder whether this anything to do that she doesn't have a strong skating federation behind her.
OK I'm sorry if my tone's a little frustrated and strained, but I had to say this so many times today that it gives me a headache: GOE is not given based on how well a judge thinks a jump is. This is totally subjective. As part of making CoP more "objective", judges were given a checklist. This is there for anyone to see, even Mao.
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets
1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure
There's detailed discussion here:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?31255-Stojko-opposes-the-ladies-result/page14
Personally, I thought Mao's combo should've received greater GOE, but I guess it comes down to that potentially-URed 2Toe. One poster noted that it's much more difficult to get high GOEs for combinations because both jumps must be of exceptional quality. I'm not sure. We don't always agree with the judges.
Sorry I overreacted I didn't mean you in particular. I'm sorry I ever singled you out. I was giving so many explanations to people here and there after the SP that I just got constipated. I had to let it out, put the explanation somewhere for people to see, and you just happened to have included something on GOE. Yeah, bad excuse :scowl: I know.Just because I said the jump was well done doesn't mean I don't know that there is a list of bullet points that judges have to decide whether to give an element bonus points.
I just don't like writing out all the specific bullet points every time because then I have to look it up to make sure it's correct so no one (else) jumps down my throat for supposedly not knowing anything.
I said the jump was well done meaning this: effortless and timed with the music (it completes the phrase). The next time you feel frustration because you think I don't know something, you can just ask....?hwell:.
Also although there is a list of bullet points, the amount of them needed to give bonus points is not written in stone in the ISU communication:
"To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. It is at the discretion
of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:
FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets"
So as you can see, a skater can get one bullet and be given a +2 if the judge so desires.
To me, the jumping pass was effortless and timed to the music (finished the phrase). That's 2 bullets and I would be well within the rules to give her a +2 if I wished. I would probably have given her a +1.
And yes, it's totally subjective despite the list as the other poster has commented. Some judges will give a +2 and another will give a 0. How is that possible...? It's shoddy.
Sorry I overreacted I didn't mean you in particular. I'm sorry I ever singled you out. I was giving so many explanations to people here and there after the SP that I just got constipated. I had to let it out, put the explanation somewhere for people to see, and you just happened to have included something on GOE. Yeah, bad excuse :scowl: I know.
I also want to point out that I didn't say you didn't have the knowledge; I didn't make such an assumption on my part. I said: "I just don't like seeing people put out GOE figures without an explanation of what exactly was so great about that jump or knowledge of what the judges are actually asked to look for." You are in the former. The vast majority of people I had to explain to were in the latter. If I had said "and" instead of "or" now that would've been a different story. I'm sorry I didn't make that very clear. Forgive me?
Well in an effort to balance that out, the highest and lowest GOE scores are removed. In general, GOE given tends to be similar (Mao got five 1s, one 2 and three 0s). You said you would've given her a +1. That would've been my score as well. That was the score of five out of nine judges. I don't think too many judges are deliberately making use of that loophole in the ISU communication. I always thought the bullet-number thing was a requirement. Thanks for elucidating. I know that GOE-giving is subjective, but this just makes it a little less subjective, I guess. At least there's a guideline, proving people who think it's a simple reward for what looks like a good jump wrong.
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just one To add more subjectivity, as stated in communication 1557 "it is at the discretion of each judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrades", the 2,4,6 bullets thing is a recommendation :-OBut that checklist is subjective as well. If it weren't subjective, why do different judges give different GOE? It's all subjective, just because it comes in "checklist form" doesn't make it less subjective. It's still based on assumptions and estimates. Sort of like economics...(I get to say that because I was an econ major )
OK I'm sorry if my tone's a little frustrated and strained, but I had to say this so many times today that it gives me a headache: GOE is not given based on how well a judge thinks a jump is. This is totally subjective. As part of making CoP more "objective", judges were given a checklist. This is there for anyone to see, even Mao.
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets
1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure
There's detailed discussion here:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?31255-Stojko-opposes-the-ladies-result/page14
Personally, I thought Mao's combo should've received greater GOE, but I guess it comes down to that potentially-URed 2Toe. One poster noted that it's much more difficult to get high GOEs for combinations because both jumps must be of exceptional quality. I'm not sure. We don't always agree with the judges.
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just one To add more subjectivity, as stated in communication 1557 "it is at the discretion of each judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrades", the 2,4,6 bullets thing is a recommendation :-O
Anyway, as I judge I find this guideline for marking +GOE a good instrument we did not have 2 years ago, although of course we used "unconsciously" the same criteria, now it is just written down for all to see but of course it remains subjective...but do we want machines to be introduced as judges?
But it is a subjective sport!!! This is why we have 9 judges and not just one To add more subjectivity, as stated in communication 1557 "it is at the discretion of each judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrades", the 2,4,6 bullets thing is a recommendation :-O
Anyway, as I judge I find this guideline for marking +GOE a good instrument we did not have 2 years ago, although of course we used "unconsciously" the same criteria, now it is just written down for all to see but of course it remains subjective...but do we want machines to be introduced as judges?