Pairs & Dance Teams with Citizenship Issues

[euroskate]

Oh dear... According to another article, he can try again only TWICE because he's failed that one part of the exam twice now and you can only take it 4 times in total... I'm getting a bit nervous for him again...

Í heard Bruno got his citizenship, but didnt see it in media or instagram as a lot of other couples do (lubov ilushenkina, abachkina et al)

 

[sarama]

That's weird. I mean T/T have been competing together for years. And clearly with the intent of going to the Olympics. I'm puzzled they didn't manage to find a solution in all this time

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

That's weird. I mean T/T have been competing together for years. And clearly with the intent of going to the Olympics. I'm puzzled they didn't manage to find a solution in all this time

So am I. Like, Israel is usually very generous in quickly giving out citizenship to Jewish people (which she is).

I wonder if they are taking a stand with Isabella because they think she has been switching countries a bit too much. But, her last change was only because her partner retired, and there were no suitable replacements in Lithuania. Surely they can't hold that against her.

Or is it because she is American and relations between the two countries aren't the best at the moment...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lauravvv]

CaroLiza_fan - Isn't it Tkachenko who could not get the citizenship? He is not from Israel either - he's Russian.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

CaroLiza_fan - Isn't it Tkachenko who could not get the citizenship? He is not from Israel either - he's Russian.

I'm not doing very well with this thread this morning, am I?!

Sorry, I mis-read shmay's comment. Just shows that I was still not awake enough to be reading things at that time of the morning.

Although, I'll be honest, I could have sworn that Ilia did have the citizenship already. And that it was Isabella that we were waiting to hear about.

Just shows how you can remember things wrong.

Anyway, what I said about being surprised still stands, because Ilia has Jewish heritage too.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Hannah555]

So am I. Like, Israel is usually very generous in quickly giving out citizenship to Jewish people (which she is).

I wonder if they are taking a stand with Isabella because they think she has been switching countries a bit too much. But, her last change was only because her partner retired, and there were no suitable replacements in Lithuania. Surely they can't hold that against her.

Or is it because she is American and relations between the two countries aren't the best at the moment...

CaroLiza_fan

Israelis are very strict with citizenship rules and as far as I know he didn't receive it. Actually even israeli sports minister tried to help with this issue but eventually failed. That's a pity

PS: the relationship between USA and Israel now are the best we had in 10 years ))) so no problem there

 

[noidont]

It's been mentioned for a long time that Tkachenko isn't Jewish.

 

[shmay]

The situation with Tkachenko makes sense I guess. There's maybe a little bad luck involved.

The current Minister of the Interior is from a Jewish fundamentalist political party that does not take kindly to immigrants from the former Soviet Union, particularly if they are not Jewish at all. He's currently involved in a lot of infighting within his political party, and it's probably not the best time for him to be upsetting his constituents by publicly handing out citizenship to a non-Jewish Russian who likely won't break the top 10 at the Olympics, let alone medal. Usually he would be easy to pay off, but he's already served time in prison once for corruption, and now he's involved in another corruption scandal, so he can't really take envelopes of shekels from the Israel Ice Skating Fed.

Tkachenko is pretty ancient, so I doubt he'll compete much longer after Worlds. Seems Isabella Tobias may have picked the wrong (goy) horse.

 

[Crossover]

The situation with Tkachenko makes sense I guess. There's maybe a little bad luck involved.

The current Minister of the Interior is from a Jewish fundamentalist political party that does not take kindly to immigrants from the former Soviet Union, particularly if they are not Jewish at all. He's currently involved in a lot of infighting within his political party, and it's probably not the best time for him to be upsetting his constituents by publicly handing out citizenship to a non-Jewish Russian who likely won't break the top 10 at the Olympics, let alone medal. Usually he would be easy to pay off, but he's already served time in prison once for corruption, and now he's involved in another corruption scandal, so he can't really take envelopes of shekels from the Israel Ice Skating Fed.

Tkachenko is pretty ancient, so I doubt he'll compete much longer after Worlds. Seems Isabella Tobias may have picked the wrong (goy) horse.

Thanks for the detailed info, but I'm still very upset about the decision that a junior team with no TES out of nowhere, whom I've never heard before until this news, will take Tobias/Tkachenko's hard-working-result instead. The Federation used T/T to get the Israeli's dance spot at the Olympics and then Team Event in which they couldn't participate. How sad and disappointing for T/T. They are not podium contenders, but have an ability to get in top 10 at Olympics given their record. The criteria makes me recall the Israeli Federation's absurd treatment regarding Tamar Katz in 2010 for Vancouver.
:ddevil:

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Israelis are very strict with citizenship rules and as far as I know he didn't receive it. Actually even israeli sports minister tried to help with this issue but eventually failed. That's a pity

Wow. I thought even a hint of Jewishness (see below) was enough to get citizenship straight away.

But, it's good to hear that the sports minister got involved. It shows that the Isrealis do value figure skating. Many other governments would just ignore it, or laugh it off.

PS: the relationship between USA and Israel now are the best we had in 10 years ))) so no problem there

Don't worry, I knew things had been better since the change in the White House. BUT, I was under the impression that it had cooled in the past few weeks.

It's been mentioned for a long time that Tkachenko isn't Jewish.

According to Isabella, he has got Jewish heritage. And that is why they chose Israel rather than the other options they had available - because both of them had that connection:

"We had four options," Tobias explained: "The USA, where I'm originally from; Russia, where Ilia comes from; Lithuania; and Israel. The U.S. would have granted him citizenship one year too late at best; Russia wanted me to give away my American passport, which I would never do; and the experts we consulted assured (us) that Lithuania would never grant him citizenship (I barely got mine). So we chose Israel, as I am of Jewish origin, and Ilia has also some Jewish roots via his mother, which makes it easier.

Source: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016...ava-rolls-tobias-explains-israeli-connections​

The situation with Tkachenko makes sense I guess. There's maybe a little bad luck involved.

The current Minister of the Interior is from a Jewish fundamentalist political party that does not take kindly to immigrants from the former Soviet Union, particularly if they are not Jewish at all. He's currently involved in a lot of infighting within his political party, and it's probably not the best time for him to be upsetting his constituents by publicly handing out citizenship to a non-Jewish Russian who likely won't break the top 10 at the Olympics, let alone medal. Usually he would be easy to pay off, but he's already served time in prison once for corruption, and now he's involved in another corruption scandal, so he can't really take envelopes of shekels from the Israel Ice Skating Fed.

Tkachenko is pretty ancient, so I doubt he'll compete much longer after Worlds. Seems Isabella Tobias may have picked the wrong (goy) horse.

That explains a lot. Thank you for the insight.

How long has he been in office? Because there are already quite a few Ukrainians skating for Israel.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Moxiejan]

Thanks for the detailed info, but I'm still very upset about the decision that a junior team with no TES out of nowhere, whom I've never heard before until this news, will take Tobias/Tkachenko's hard-working-result instead. The Federation used T/T to get the Israeli's dance spot at the Olympics and then Team Event in which they couldn't participate.

If the junior team can't get TES, would that knock Israel out of the team event & open a spot for Australia? Anyone know how this would work?

 

[shmay]

Wow. I thought even a hint of Jewishness (see below) was enough to get citizenship straight away.

How long has he been in office? Because there are already quite a few Ukrainians skating for Israel.

CaroLiza_fan

He's been in the position of Minister of the Interior for less than two years. The Minister during the time that Isabella teamed up with Ilia would likely have been more liberal w/respect to immigration, but the makeups of the Ministries change quite frequently in Israel.

I'm not an immigration specialist, but in order to obtain citizenship I think you basically need to fulfill one of the following:

1. Have proof of at least one grandparent that is matrilineally Jewish (or I guess maybe Jewish by conversion)
2. Be married to an Israeli citizen
3. Be the child or immediate family member of an Israeli citizen
4. Go through formal conversion to Judaism yourself
5. Be working in the country for a very, very long time.
6. Receive refugee status

There are additional caveats of course (not deemed a security threat, not actively practicing a faith other than Judaism), but those are the basics.

I imagine the skaters from the former Soviet Union who have represented Israel at the Olympics fulfilled one or more of #s1-3. Tkachenko, may very well have Jewish ancestry, but in some circumstances this could be very difficult to prove, e.g. if his Jewish grandparent was not marked as 'Jewish' on their Soviet identity documents. Many of Jewish ancestry in the Soviet Union actively sought to hide their ethnicity due to fears of antisemitism.

Anyway, that was a much longer response than you wanted, but there you have it.

 

[Crossover]

If the junior team can't get TES, would that knock Israel out of the team event & open a spot for Australia? Anyone know how this would work?

The junior team could obtain TES from B-level competitions, but I don't know it is enough time for them to get it. I have no idea how good their level is. Regarding any chance of Australia replacing the team event spot, you would better wait for Australian posters' answer. I haven't closely followed how the team event points work.

 

[Andrea82]

The article says it is Tankova/Zilberberg who will go to Olympics rather than Jr team. T/Z have already the minimum. They skated at Minsk Challenger recently.

 

[karne]

If the junior team can't get TES, would that knock Israel out of the team event & open a spot for Australia? Anyone know how this would work?

Australia is in the first reserve position at this time (I don't think anyone is going to catch us but I may be mistaken). I am not sure exactly how the team event substitutions work but if Israel was eliminated from the hunt for any reason we would take their place.

I'm not entirely certain how this works, but my understanding is that if Israel has to surrender their dance spot, they will fall back to two disciplines, which will automatically rank them behind any team with three disciplines. So that would put them behind Australia and move Australia into 10th.

I will feel very bad for the Israeli dancers if after all that effort they have to surrender their spot.

- - - Updated - - -

The article says it is Tankova/Zilberberg who will go to Olympics rather than Jr team. T/Z have already the minimum. They skated at Minsk Challenger recently.

I thought the information was that one of this team didn't have citizenship? Or am I getting mixed up?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

He's been in the position of Minister of the Interior for less than two years. The Minister during the time that Isabella teamed up with Ilia would likely have been more liberal w/respect to immigration, but the makeups of the Ministries change quite frequently in Israel.

I'm not an immigration specialist, but in order to obtain citizenship I think you basically need to fulfill one of the following:

1. Have proof of at least one grandparent that is matrilineally Jewish (or I guess maybe Jewish by conversion)
2. Be married to an Israeli citizen
3. Be the child or immediate family member of an Israeli citizen
4. Go through formal conversion to Judaism yourself
5. Be working in the country for a very, very long time.
6. Receive refugee status

There are additional caveats of course (not deemed a security threat, not actively practicing a faith other than Judaism), but those are the basics.

I imagine the skaters from the former Soviet Union who have represented Israel at the Olympics fulfilled one or more of #s1-3. Tkachenko, may very well have Jewish ancestry, but in some circumstances this could be very difficult to prove, e.g. if his Jewish grandparent was not marked as 'Jewish' on their Soviet identity documents. Many of Jewish ancestry in the Soviet Union actively sought to hide their ethnicity due to fears of antisemitism.

Anyway, that was a much longer response than you wanted, but there you have it.

Don't worry. It was very interesting to read.

Thank you so much for making everything so much clearer. It is always helpful to know these things so that we can better understand the situation.

I don't know what the requirements are in the UK, because I have always had a British passport and so didn't need to know. But, when I was getting an Irish one, the requirement was that you had to have at least one grandparent born on the island (North or South). And since I had three Irish grandparents (one of my Grannies was English), that was no problem.

Thank you again for your very informative post.



CaroLiza_fan

 

[Eclair]

any updates on how Bruno is doing?

 

[Andrea82]

I thought the information was that one of this team didn't have citizenship? Or am I getting mixed up?

The Jerusalem Post article published today mention that Tkachenko (of Tobias/Tkachenko) didn't get the citizenship. Tobias/Tkachenko were the ones who qualified the spot in first place; Tankova/ZIlbergberg would have never achived it given they scored 112 points last month in Minsk and that's their PB.


Alexei Bychenko and Daniel Samohin will take part in the men’s competition, Evgeni Krasnopolski and Paige Conners will participate in the pairs and Adel Tanakova and Ronald Zilberberg will compete in the ice dancing event. Isabella Tobias and Ilia Tkachenko earned Israel’s berth in the ice dancing by finishing in 12th place at the World Championships earlier this year.

However, they will not be able to compete in Pyeongchang as Tkachenko’s requests for Israeli citizenship have been turned down.

Both skaters must have citizenship in their country to take part in the Olympics. In the World Championships, it is enough for one of them to be a citizen. As a result, Tanakova and Zilberberg will take their place.



http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Sp...-set-to-don-gloves-for-Winter-Olympics-514898

 

[Anyasnake]

Well... Bruno Massot is granted German citizenship !

https://www.eislauf-union.de/media1...eilung-über-die-einbürgerung-von-bruno-massot

 

[moriel]

Well... Bruno Massot is granted German citizenship !

https://www.eislauf-union.de/media1...eilung-über-die-einbürgerung-von-bruno-massot

Woohooo
I wonder how hard Alyona had to spank him to make him learn german, finally =D