"Tanos" and increasing jump difficulty

[starlight97]

Yes I think everyone noticed her excessive use of this.
IMO it's a unique thing to do this and like mentioned earlier, when f.e. Yuna did it once in her FS it was a pleasant thing to watch.
If it is used as frequently as Evgenia uses it, it kinda loses it's aesthetic qualities.
If you overdo sth then it always loses its charm.

But sadly you can't win medals with charm or pleasant surprises so I say go for it Evgenia.
Not many girls could perform almost every jump with their arm aloft.
Set yourself apart, make it "your thing" and collect points.

 

[satine]

Yes I think everyone noticed her excessive use of this.
IMO it's a unique thing to do this and like mentioned earlier, when f.e. Yuna did it once in her FS it was a pleasant thing to watch.
If it is used as frequently as Evgenia uses it, it kinda loses it's aesthetic qualities.
If you overdo sth then it always loses its charm.

But sadly you can't win medals with charm or pleasant surprises so I say go for it Evgenia.
Not many girls could perform almost every jump with their arm aloft.
Set yourself apart, make it "your thing" and collect points.

Go get it girl

 

[FSGMT]

I'm always impressed by tano jumps, and I think that we already have too many limitations to add another one By the way, I actually think that they don't receive as many GOE points as they should: why does a tano flutz receive -2??! It's three revolutions in the air with one arm over your head!

 

[Kittosuni]

She's the ONLY one who does this which makes her special over the rest so why should she change it and aside from the fact that she's racking points on it. It really leaves you the impression that she is a great jumper. That 2axel is the prettiest i have to say

 

[jcoates]

It's supposed to be a competitive sport first, not an art exhibition. It's harder to rotate when the arms are away from the body's core center of gravity. That is the added difficulty of the tano arm position. The added technical value is merited. BTW until the 80s some people thought throws were a gimmick in pairs (Rodnina never did them). They stayed around anyway and creativity in pairs didn't die. It just moved in another direction.

 

[machin]

It's supposed to be a competitive sport first, not an art exhibition.

Nope. At first it was an art. The art of skating.

Then it became a sport too.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Usually I like tano jumps, but I have to admit that I don't really like Medvedevas. Maybe it's because she rotates so fast, and she has 'only' one arm above her head... it kind of looks uncontrolled and therefor accidental to me. If a tano is done with both arms beautifully extented above the head though...

Anyway, even if I personally don't like them, Medvedeva should be allowed to do her tano jumps, and she should be getting +GOE on them. If it's pretty or not is just my opinion, but that it's more difficult than a normal jump is a fact. So she should be rewarded for it.

 

[Meoima]

I find no problem with it, her jumps look beautiful with that position.

 

[gkelly]

I totally agree. Hand(s) above head, hand(s) not above the head, is there any other alternative when a skater jumps?

Hands on hips? Michael Chack used to be known for that in the early/mid 1990s, but I've seen it from a couple of lower level skaters over the years as well.

This discussion reminds me of a couple other things I've seen from non-international-level skaters over the years:

Two skaters at one competition, with the same coach, who both landed many of their jumps with their arms crossed in front of the chest.

Another skater, years later, who approached her hardest jump with arms clasped behind her back, only switching to normal position at the actual takeoff.

When I saw each of these in the respective short programs, I thought, Wow, cool, extra points for both originality and difficulty.

When the skaters did the same thing on more jumps in the freeskate, I started to wonder whether that was a technical trick that actually made it easier for them to do the jump and that doing it the normal vanilla way would be harder for them.

The first examples were under 6.0 so there's no way to know how they were or weren't rewarded.
The last one was in IJS but I don't remember from the protocols how many pluses the skater got for those jumps.

Going by my own thoughts, I would probably have rewarded for both difficulty (GOE) and originality (PCS) in the SP when it seemed original and fresh, and only in GOE in the FS. Or even not at all if I had reason to believe that the skater couldn't do the jump (or not as successfully or consistently) without that variation.

As for overusing a single gesture, I'm also thinking about a much lower level skater skating to music from Cats who used a lot of cat paw hands throughout the program. At first I thought it was cool that there was thematic choreography. As the program went on, I thought it was less cool that the coach/choreographer seemingly only had one idea about how this skater could convey the cat theme and used it over and over again. So, in my mind, only worth a tiny advantage choreographically compared to doing nothing at all, and less than using that gesture sparingly -- much less than using using many different catlike moves.

Nope. At first it was an art. The art of skating.

Then it became a sport too.

Well, first it was a pastime focused more on what the participants got out of it and took pride in.

Some focused more on the difficulty and precision of what the blades drew on the ice ("English style") and others on how appealing it looked to spectators ("International style").

I read about some French skaters in the early 1800s who focused on looking good for each other and for passersby when they were out doing their things on ponds, but I think organized skating shows, what we might call skating as performing art, started with Jackson Haines in the 1860s and 70s, becoming especially popular in Vienna.

There were some competitions starting in the same period (e.g., Haines referred to himself as an American skating champion); the ISU was formed and more standardized competitions organized starting in the 1890s.

So I would say that skating as art and skating as sport developed simultaneously, with some interconnections and some separation -- not that the art was well developed first.

From what I can tell, the sport of figure skating in the early 1900s leaned more toward making the movement look attractive and graceful in freestyle and trying not to look jerky in school figures, but the majority of the scores in competition came from school figures where the tracings were most important.

 

[jcoates]

Nope. At first it was an art. The art of skating.

Then it became a sport too.

My point made in the context of programs of the skater in question. She was at a competition as are all the skaters we discuss in the vast majority of the threads here.

 

[karne]

I totally agree. Hand(s) above head, hand(s) not above the head, is there any other alternative when a skater jumps?

Jason Brown did the 3F-2T in his Riverdance program with one hand behind his back - on the SECOND jump!

Earlier in the season he was doing it with BOTH hands behind his back.

 

[chloec]

Yes I think everyone noticed her excessive use of this.
IMO it's a unique thing to do this and like mentioned earlier, when f.e. Yuna did it once in her FS it was a pleasant thing to watch.
If it is used as frequently as Evgenia uses it, it kinda loses it's aesthetic qualities.
If you overdo sth then it always loses its charm.

But sadly you can't win medals with charm or pleasant surprises so I say go for it Evgenia.
Not many girls could perform almost every jump with their arm aloft.
Set yourself apart, make it "your thing" and collect points.

Can't agree more. My first impression of Evgenia's tao was "wow, this girl is amazing" and then it was getting like "um.... so you just have tados on every single jump NOT for the music or choreography".

 

[gravy]

Evgenia performs her program brilliantly and her tano jumps are just icing on the cake. Perfect. Why not do them? They don't take anything away from her program and actually help her score better. Very robotic which is on par to her program theme which she even carries to the point of bowing to the audience as a robot.

Off-topic, this is my favorite tano jump performed (third jump in the combo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zfJHd7woJU#t=203

Mao is just magic.

 

[therealwombatpoodle]

To me there are 4 possible reasons why a skater would do a tano jump / why ISU would reward a tano jump:

1. Because the tano jump is technically more difficult, and thus, impressive when the skater manages one.
2. Because ISU/the skater thinks tano jumps look more beautiful than regular jumps/Rippon jumps/whatever variation.
3. Because it makes that one jump look unique and adds contrast within the program itself.
4. Because it makes that skater's jumps look different from what all the other regular jumpers are doing.

Or it could be all of the above. I simply cannot comprehend why people are so hung up over whether Evgenia's tanos were done for the 3rd reason or not. She's obviously doing them for reason 1 and 2 and probably 4 as well. Those are valid reasons for doing tano jumps, and just as important as reason 3. A lot of things are done purely for gaining points/showcasing technical prowess, and that's ok. That doesn't make those things "gimmicks" or "excessive", and certainly does not invite a need for restriction (god forbid!). NOT everything must be about the art and the music and the choreography, and yes, that includes the tano.

If Evgenia's program "lacks contrast" because almost all the jumps were tano'd, all the skaters who did all their jumps the regular way also have a lack of contrast within their program. Just sayin'. It goes both ways.

Let's stop objecting whenever skaters do technically impressive things that very few other skaters can do (often erroneously referred to as "gimmicks" on this forum). It happened with Yulia's flex positions in her spins. It's happening now with Evgenia's tanos. Let's just chill and appreciate their talent.

 

[bluebell0710]

Totally agree!

To me there are 4 possible reasons why a skater would do a tano jump / why ISU would reward a tano jump:

1. Because the tano jump is technically more difficult, and thus, impressive when the skater manages one.
2. Because ISU/the skater thinks tano jumps look more beautiful than regular jumps/Rippon jumps/whatever variation.
3. Because it makes that one jump look unique and adds contrast within the program itself.
4. Because it makes that skater's jumps look different from what all the other regular jumpers are doing.

Or it could be all of the above. I simply cannot comprehend why people are so hung up over whether Evgenia's tanos were done for the 3rd reason or not. She's obviously doing them for reason 1 and 2 and probably 4 as well. Those are valid reasons for doing tano jumps, and just as important as reason 3. A lot of things are done purely for gaining points/showcasing technical prowess, and that's ok. That doesn't make those things "gimmicks" or "excessive", and certainly does not invite a need for restriction (god forbid!). NOT everything must be about the art and the music and the choreography, and yes, that includes the tano.

If Evgenia's program "lacks contrast" because almost all the jumps were tano'd, all the skaters who did all their jumps the regular way also have a lack of contrast within their program. Just sayin'. It goes both ways.

Let's stop objecting whenever skaters do technically impressive things that very few other skaters can do (often erroneously referred to as "gimmicks" on this forum). It happened with Yulia's flex positions in her spins. It's happening now with Evgenia's tanos. Let's just chill and appreciate their talent.

 

[Alba]

To me there are 4 possible reasons why a skater would do a tano jump / why ISU would reward a tano jump:

1. Because the tano jump is technically more difficult, and thus, impressive when the skater manages one.
2. Because ISU/the skater thinks tano jumps look more beautiful than regular jumps/Rippon jumps/whatever variation.
3. Because it makes that one jump look unique and adds contrast within the program itself.
4. Because it makes that skater's jumps look different from what all the other regular jumpers are doing.

Or it could be all of the above. I simply cannot comprehend why people are so hung up over whether Evgenia's tanos were done for the 3rd reason or not. She's obviously doing them for reason 1 and 2 and probably 4 as well. Those are valid reasons for doing tano jumps, and just as important as reason 3. A lot of things are done purely for gaining points/showcasing technical prowess, and that's ok. That doesn't make those things "gimmicks" or "excessive", and certainly does not invite a need for restriction (god forbid!). NOT everything must be about the art and the music and the choreography, and yes, that includes the tano.

If Evgenia's program "lacks contrast" because almost all the jumps were tano'd, all the skaters who did all their jumps the regular way also have a lack of contrast within their program. Just sayin'. It goes both ways.

Let's stop objecting whenever skaters do technically impressive things that very few other skaters can do (often erroneously referred to as "gimmicks" on this forum). It happened with Yulia's flex positions in her spins. It's happening now with Evgenia's tanos. Let's just chill and appreciate their talent.

Amen!

 

[Figureskaterr]

Tano jumps are rewarded more GOE because they are technically more difficult. Whoever decided that tano jumps are meant to be done sparingly to add "contrast"? GOE is part of the TES score after all.

And what's wrong with doing whatever you can to score higher points? That is the point of a "competition". How is doing all tano jumps "limiting creativity"? If this is so, isn't doing all non-tano-jumps the same? Just because you don't like the look of a tano jump doesn't mean it's not "creative". Personally, I love the look of a tano jump - it looks so graceful and vibrant and flowing as compared to a normal jump where the skater scrunches their whole body together like they're bracing for impact. I don't see any reason for limiting the number of such lovely jumps, and if ISU doesn't as well, that's fine.

Define "gimmicky". A "gimmick" is a device used to trick someone. Getting higher GOE by doing something you're good at many times isn't a "trick" or a "deception". It's a legit way of showcasing your talent in that area. If Evgenia is good at tano jumps and that's her distinctive move, she should go right ahead and do them. If she limits what she's good at doing or known for, what makes her special/distinctive compared to other skaters?

Couldn't agree with you more! In my opinion those tano jumps in Evgenia's programmes are very beautiful.

 

[Sandpiper]

Tano arms in every jumping pass is really overkill. If it starts becoming like the Biellmann during the beginning of COP, I say limit it. But meh, it's not really a big problem right now. It's just one person doing too many tano jumps, and not even the field leader. There's things like falls and spins and StSq to take care of. I'll hate it if figure skating became "who can do more tano jumps," but it's premature to be worried about that when there's bigger fish to fry.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Tano arms in every jumping pass is really overkill. If it starts becoming like the Biellmann during the beginning of COP, I say limit it. But meh, it's not really a big problem right now. It's just one person doing too many tano jumps, and not even the field leader. There's things like falls and spins and StSq to take care of. I'll hate it if figure skating became "who can do more tano jumps," but it's premature to be worried about that when there's bigger fish to fry.

I don't think that will be an issue. Most female skaters can't do tano triple jumps, or at least aren't comfortable enough putting them in their programs... otherwise they would certainly include them for the added GOE. Right now, it's Sakhanovich and Medvedeva who do 'tano triples (and maybe a few others I'm unaware of). Gold does a Rippon lutz, and of course Brown and Rippon do tano/rippon lutzes. It's such an uncommon thing that I'm okay if a few skaters include it. Even to the extent that Medvedeva does it.

 

[Sandpiper]

^What I mean is, I hope in the far future, figure skating doesn't "max out" difficulty level in jumps, so the competition becomes "who can stick in the most tano positions, since we're all doing the same jumps." This obviously sounds ludicrous at this point, hence why I don't think tano should be the ISU's focus. Maybe, when that day comes, and the only thing that differentiates results is who does more tanos... then we can talk about limiting them.