"Tanos" and increasing jump difficulty

[gkelly]

All these examples are still on the same foot as the landing edge, so I think of it as demonstrating ability to maintain flow as well as control of the edge(s), changing the balance point over the blade by changing body positions, edge changes, or turns -- control of the rhythm of these changes to the music would make it even more difficult but maybe that should be rewarded under the "element matched to musical structure" bullet point.

Some may be more difficult than others, but all are more difficult than just holding the edge for a couple of blade lengths and then taking a step/stroke to the other foot.

 

[Alba]

All these examples are still on the same foot as the landing edge, so I think of it as demonstrating ability to maintain flow as well as control of the edge(s), changing the balance point over the blade by changing body positions, edge changes, or turns -- control of the rhythm of these changes to the music would make it even more difficult but maybe that should be rewarded under the "element matched to musical structure" bullet point.

That's what I was going to say, and I would add the SS and overall execution of the jump.
If I have to judge the jump, overall, I'll go with Patrick.
My comment was about the "difficult" exit, only.

 

[Macassar88]

I think they look great and are very impressive - I think that once others can do the same thing, people can talk about it being a rule

But for now, she's the only one doing them, and they are great looking jumps that just happen to have her hand above her head

That said, I really want her to do some jumps with both hands over her head too!

 

[VirMo]

We will see Sakhanovich in Ljubljana this week. Let's see if she will keep her 3 tano jumps in the second half of the SP as previous season:think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrRDaKJ9CMg

Yes she did

 

[bluebell0710]

Oh Yes she did. Will she also bring tano jump to Yulia:think: I think Ilya will not put all 3 jumps in the second half in the SP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrRDaKJ9CMg

Yes she did

 

[Blades of Passion]

Tano jumps are rewarded more GOE because they are technically more difficult. Whoever decided that tano jumps are meant to be done sparingly to add "contrast"?

People who actually care about good choreography.

 

[mskater93]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bahahahaha! BoP, you nailed it!!!

 

[Bartek]

The only difficult exits I see here are Dmitrenko, Abbot and to some extent Stojko.

Well, the bullet is "difficult/creative/unexpected entry" I think. Thus, all of them county. I've noticed that people are primarily sensitive to difficult entrances and overlook the exits. Here are some more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm9F-lSuArQ&t=1m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xjUQWPsPY&t=1m46s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwCQ0jA_zqc&t=1m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqRc-1FHVUc&t=1m4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cREpbMgQTM&t=2m38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIU7Gsbkghg&t=2m53s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh3iW4I39DI&t=3m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh3iW4I39DI&t=4m58s

The last one from Sasha Cohen I haven't seen anybody else do and on top of that it's perfectly matched with music.

 

[Mrs. P]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mUYs2TMsWU#t=03m55s

I love this awesome entry from Jason Brown in his new Tristan and Ineult FS! It really plays into the dramatic accent of the music.

 

[therealwombatpoodle]

People who actually care about good choreography.

You assume I don't care about choreography. I do.

But people actually do things purely for technical content. And that's ok. There is really no rule saying that tano jumps MUST be used for a choreography.

In any case, I see nothing wrong with Evgenia's choreography - if anything is wrong with it, choreographies where skaters to ALL non-tano jumps are objectionable as well. Yet there are many memorable and mind-blowing programs with no tano/non-tano jump variations at all.

BoP and mskater93, there is no need to be so rude. You both have every right to object to the choreography in Evgenia's program. There is no need to rag on me for not thinking there's a problem. Peace out.

 

[kwanatic]

So....what does choreo even have to do with TES. I always thought a Tano was TES and scored as a positive GOE. Now I'm confused because I thought Tano's counted for GOE soley and not toward your PCS. Can you even get GOE for your choreography?

This is what I'm thinking. I don't count a tano feature on a jump to be part of the choreography...that's more TES.

 

[Wo|flax]

So....what does choreo even have to do with TES. I always thought a Tano was TES and scored as a positive GOE. Now I'm confused because I thought Tano's counted for GOE soley and not toward your PCS. Can you even get GOE for your choreography?

Tano doesn't count towards your PCS or your choreography. But I guess I think of it this way: even though it's not official, you can utilize it in such a way to add to your choreography (like if whatever variation [by that I mean tano or double tano etc] you're doing suits the music) which would leave/make a good impression on the the judges (+the audience) which in turn might cause them to think the program is better. It's not something that could make or break a program or anything, just a little bit of extra on the side.

Of course, because doing it is hard(a technical thing) skaters will be training it to use it as a technical advantage. If for example the first time a skater uses it well you might be impressed, but for sure they're going to use it again next season in another program, and it's like :yep ain't nobody being 'artistic' or an artistic messiah just cuz of a jump variation. This is a sport. But some choreographers/skaters/whoever can take the opportunity to turn it into something a little bit extra. But it's not the downfall of artistry if someone doesn't. It's a technical thing, so it can work on its own being impressive as a technical thing.

I'm certainly impressed she's doing it on 4 different jump types, that's already a nice variation from other people doing it on one. ;p

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So should I consider difficult entries into spins as choreo? I thought the quality of elements was scored as a seperate thing altogether and not in PCS.

 

[papa]

By the way, her coaches are clearly doing whatever they can to garner her points, with her reserving almost all of her jumps to second half to get the bonus. She's clearly an amazing jumper (though with flutzing), but at some point the use of the arm lacks a little class and screams "I'm trying to get all the GOE points you can give me, ever!!!" rather than showing a balanced and classy program.

Thoughts?

It definitely should be limited or banned, just like the other elements Russian girls excel in - next should be that tawdry I-spin from Lipnitskaya. Clearly lacking class and screaming for points.
(and they are from Moscow or someplace stupid...)

 

[Wo|flax]

So should I consider difficult entries into spins as choreo? I thought the quality of elements was scored as a seperate thing altogether and not in PCS.

I wasn't saying you had to consider Tano as choreo though? I was saying you didn't have to.

Still, the tano creates a shape with your body, which is noticeable can sometimes create a certain feeling, so it can add to the performance, if you are so inclined. (I don't agree with there needs to be variation or that Tano should be limited; just doing something once instead of a lot doesn't mean anything)

 

[Meoima]

Frankly I have to say, when Evgenia Medvedeva did the tano, I think it's beautiful. But when Serafima did the tano, I think it's excessive.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I wasn't saying you had to consider Tano as choreo though? I was saying you didn't have to.

Still, the tano creates a shape with your body, which is noticeable can sometimes create a certain feeling, so it can add to the performance, if you are so inclined. (I don't agree with there needs to be variation or that Tano should be limited; just doing something once instead of a lot doesn't mean anything)

Actually I can see a pretty good case for Tanos to be scored under choreo after restudying the criteria for awarding PCS. Mostly the Purpose and Proportion criteria but I would hope it wouldnt bare much weight on the final Choreography score. I guess it is subject to varying viewpoints in the end. TBH I think there is a case for a judge to even award higher choreo scores if so inclined. I also am very aware of how GOE and PCS scores tend to blend together and one thing can bleed over and affect the other both good and bad. What I am not sure though about is if it should be considered bad choreo for going to town on and doing excessive (to some) Tanos. Getting points is how you win. It doesn't matter now because Evgenia and Medvedeva haven't had any competition but come Nationals,GPF, and JWC it will be the little things to grab points that will make all a big difference in final scores and placements.

I tend to agree with you though when you say just doing something once or a lot doesn't mean anything. Obviously it's in the eye of the beholder at that point.

 

[Wo|flax]

All right I can see a pretty good case for Tanos to be scored under choreo after restudying the criteria for awarding PCS. Mostly the Purpose and Proportion criteria and I eould hope it wouldnt bare much weight on the final Choreography score but I guess that is subject to varying viewpoints. TBH I think there is a case for a judge to even award higher choreo scores if so inclined. I also am very aware of how GOE and PCS scores tend to blend together and one thing can bleed over and affect the other both good and bad. What I am not sure though of is if it should be considered bad choreo for going to town on and doing excessive (to some) Tanos. Getting points is how you win. It doesn't matter now because Evgenia and Medvedeva haven't had any competition but come Nationals,GPF, and JWC it will be the little things to grab points that will make all a big difference in final scores and placements.

I tend to agree with you though when you say just doing something once or a lot doesn't mean anything. Obviously it's in the eye of the beholder at that point.

I don't think it should be considered bad choreo. Like it can be good or neutral.

 

[zamboni step]

So should I consider difficult entries into spins as choreo? I thought the quality of elements was scored as a seperate thing altogether and not in PCS.

The thing is, a tano can be used to emphasise nuances in the music, if it is then that's clearly good choreography, it's the same as when a jump is placed in perfect timing with the music, which garners both GOE and should increase PCS. For example: http://youtu.be/AO83mG2awLI?t=45s

An example of a tano being used to accentuate the music would be Evgenia's 3Lz in her SP or Mao's 3-2-2 in her "Swan Lake" program (for the first half of the season anyway).

 

[gkelly]

My take would be:

If it adds to the difficulty or quality of the element it can add to the GOE (if it adds the difficulty but negatively affects the quality, then there could be a plus-minus situation and the GOE could end up at 0, or negative if there's an actual mistake that would have been less likely without the enhancement)

Difficult entries and exits can add to the Transitions component

Variations that enhance the beauty, clarity of movement, or style and individuality/personality of the program as a whole can add to the Performance/Execution component; those that significantly detract from beauty or clarity could be penalized there

Variations that add to the Purpose, Proportion, Unity, Originality of the program as a whole can be rewarded in the Choreography component. Doing the same thing too often might come across as hurting the "Proportion (equal weight of all parts)" aspect of the program, in which case it could have a negative effect on the Choreography component.

Variations that reflect the structure of the music at that moment in the program can be rewarded the Interpretation component; those that interrupt the connection between music and movement could be penalized there

So I think it's perfectly possible that the same judge might reward the same variation in GOEs multiple times if the skater executes it multiple times, but also give a lower Choreography score for overusing that variation than if the skater had used it more sparingly