2014 Cup of China Mens Free Skate 11/08

[Tommmy]

Guys, easy, please... really. Everyone here agree that his PCS should have been lower, but really how much ? I think it's still should be around 78. And then what ? What to do with Kovtun PCS ? Then he should get 77, and I think that would have been reasonable. And what that change in placement ? Nothing.

It was still TES that made job for him as always, not the PCS. Rules are the same for everyone. If some skaters can't score with clean performance in tES higher that someone with 5 falls then sorry .. but ho's fault is this ? This with falls that can make good TES still or this one that can't beat someone like that ?

:thumbsup:

 

[mjj]

Only TES should be used to score, they should abolished PCS altogether as this is a sport :yay:

 

[Ryusa5]

Hanyu had an SP with a tripled quad and no combo, he had an LP with 5 falls (including a UR) and just 4 triples. Overall, the 6 triple jumps Hanyu cleanly executed between SP and LP (3A, 3T & 3F, 3A+3S, 3Z) wouldn't even amount to Nguyen's 1 quad+7 triple FS (4S, 3A, 3A+3T, 3F+2T+2L, 3F+2T, 3L, 3Z). And somehow that translates to Hanyu beating Nguyen by 16 points. Kovtun's PCS score was also pretty high, but at least he landed one quad, and both axels (save for a touchdown on the 2nd one) and only had 1 fall on the 4S. It is absolutely insane that a FS with just 4 triples and 5 falls came 2nd in the FS with 84 PCS... and coupled with an SP with no quad or combo was STILL enough to win 2nd place in a GP event.

He didn't recieve silver thanks to his PCS but his TES.He fell but he fully rotated 4 of those jumps so he got credit according to the rules.Is it fair? well according to the rules it is
It's not his fault that falls aren't penalised more,and even if you give him 10 points lower PCS he would still have silver
How exactly would you have scored him ?

 

[izradria]

The fact that people are actually blaming the skaters of all people in this thread...They collided, of course they're not thinking right! If someone got into a pretty bad car accident and dazed and confused insisted they drive to the hospital themselves (assuming the car was still somewhat driveable), the EMTs called to the scene would look at them like they were crazy and rightly say "heck no!" The numerous collision-free adults around them should have said something and put their foot down. Head injury is such a major problem in sports and the reaction to it is not improving.

 

[Mao88]

MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS & RESULT - updated

1. Maxim KOVTUN (RUS) - 243.34 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy
2. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 237.55 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy, 6th Copy
3. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 226.73 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy
4. Nam NGUYEN (CAN) - 221.85 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy, 6th Copy
5. Misha GE (UZB) - 219.28 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy
6. Han YAN (CHN) - 206.65 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy
7. Alexei BYCHENKO (ISR) - 204.15 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
8. Keiji TANAKA (JPN) - 189.26 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy
9. Jin Seo KIM (KOR) - 183.46 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
10. Yuhang GUAN (CHN) - 177.66 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
11. Yi WANG (CHN) - 160.92 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

 

[Violet Bliss]

Only TES should be used to score, they should abolished PCS altogether as this is a sport :yay:

Hmmmm. What should skaters do between elements? stand, sit, or cross cut? Maybe the programs should be shortened to 30 seconds and 1 min.

 

[mjj]

I guess nobody won the prediction game. From the warm up Yuzu looked good in jump, he might have won if there was no collision.

 

[mjj]

Hmmmm. What should skaters do between elements? stand, sit, or cross cut? Maybe the programs should be shortened to 30 seconds and 1 min.

I don't know you guys figure out, how to make that part not contentious just like TES :think:

 

[phaeljones]

The fact that people are actually blaming the skaters of all people in this thread...They collided, of course they're not thinking right! If someone got into a pretty bad car accident and dazed and confused insisted they drive to the hospital themselves (assuming the car was still somewhat driveable), the EMTs called to the scene would look at them like they were crazy and rightly say "heck no!" The numerous collision-free adults around them should have said something and put their foot down. Head injury is such a major problem in sports and the reaction to it is not improving.

:thumbsup: That is it. So well said.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I can't deal with the emotion part of this right now cause I'm just.......I don't even know.

But I think we can all agree his PCS was too high, but as some posters have said before, even if his PCS drops to 74 he'd still be in second place. And I think he did enough to receive a 75+, but even a 69 PCS which would have given him bronze. If the placing's don't make sense, it not really due to PCS but its because he got the 2nd highest TES of the night, and 2nd only by 5 points.

I realized this with Hanyu, no matter how much his PCS is propped up, its his TES that gives him the medal. So those who questions his podium placing should focus more on the lack of more severe punishment for falls which is an IJS problem rather than a judging problem. But of course the judges need to pull it back a bit because they aren't doing him any favors by giving him a boost although I am glad that at least whenever they give Hanyu a boost in PCS, they do the same for 1 or 2 more skaters so its not a sole bias, but rather a "top of the pack" bias.

I think the PCS in his SP was too generous given he had two major errors (amounting to three if you consider the lack of a combo). And his PCS in the FS should certainly not have been above 80... it's not just that he had the falls, but the falls were detrimental to the transitional parts of the program and the overall interpretation. It was very obvious that the life was sucked out of his performance, as brave as it was to still go out there -- but skaters shouldn't get pity points either.

In the SP, I would have had Dornbush at about 40 points PCS, and just about 81 points in the FS (certainly more than Kovtun). So if you increased his PCS by 2 points in the SP, and 3 points in the LP... and then for Hanyu's SP dropped his PCS by 2 points to 42 and dropped the PCS in his FS even to 80, that gives Dornbush a slim silver. Nam also got completely hosed on PCS... I mean, I get that he skates "small" and doesn't have the speed of the other guys, but 68 points PCS for a clean program with 2 axels and a quad (singled 2A aside) versus 84 points PCS for a program with 1 axel, no quad, and 5 falls? I mean that one judge who gave him components scores of 9.00/8.75/8.75/9.00/9.25 needs to be flayed... and two judges giving a 5-fall program 8.75 for performance/execution is just mind-boggling.

And I agree with some of the prior posts... the outrage should be at the judging. And in my posts, I just want to make it clear that I'm lambasting the judges for their ridiculousness, and not the skaters.

That being said, I hope Hanyu recovers well and we'll see the potential of this program to its fullest, because there are some lovely moments in there. Especially his SP I think could be a huge leap for him artistically once he executes it.

 

[treeloving]

I really appreciate the grown adults blaming a concussed kid (who has probably no idea what is going on because guess what HE'S FLIPPING CONCUSSED). Blame the judges, coaches, officials, the adults who could have stopped this mess. Congratulations, I'm not sure who I'm not sure who I'm disgusted by more you "fans" or this sport as a whole. I guess I'll take both. Some of you are acting like Yuzuru bribed the judges. Instead of worrying about the health of two skaters, we're all sitting around screaming about scoring, which would have never have happened if we had actual competent adults around to tell these guys to get off the ice. Can we focus on the lack of safety guidelines? I'm disgusted. Also for some of you concerned about this protocol crap and blaming the skater for causing the scoring issues by himself, you all need your heads checked as well.

Thank you very much! I feel the same. It really amazing how being sport fan and the feeling of rivalry could make some people totally lost humanity.

 

[dorispulaski]

I think the vast majority of people, maybe 95%, agree that it makes no sense, but what's done has been done. I don't think the circumstances are right to debate PCS, this was too much of a freak outlier incident to judge by normal standards.

I think so too. Bless those people who can still think straight after they witnessed the accident directly in the ice rink.

We watched them collided through live stream and we are shock and worried until now. I wonder how people who were at the rink felt. Devastated, shock, overwhelming, bewildered...

Judges are human, too. They have been affected by the collision much worse than us.

The audience, and yes, judges are shell-shocked when there is such a horrible accident.

The judges are part of the arena audience too. I cannot believe they judged as precisely as they would have with no accident here at CoC, do this is probably not the event to dissect the judging on.

I have seen something like this. I was at Skate America when Totmianina had her terrible fall, and lay motionless on the ice. Very few in the audience could do anything but gasp and be appalled, but some did have the wit to shout to Marinin to not move her and wait for the EMT's, since a spine fracture is always a concern in a bad fall. Everyone, skaters, judges and all were not their normal selves.

 

[deedee1]

Many congrats to Ricky for his podium finish! 'Shouts-out' to Misha for his glorious skates for two consecutive nights!!

I sincerely hope Han and Yuzuru are okay. Idk who to blame; their coaches, feds people, or the refree of the night, but I still can't believe they DID LET Han and Yuzuru skate after such dangerous collision... It's just BIG NO-NO.

As for final placements, TES, PCS, TSS or whatever, I can only say it's not the skaters fault. They played the game under the current rules, and we've known this rules is imperfect. period. If it may be my 128th time that I don't agree with results, so what? I've given it up a long time ago. hwell: I just 'try to' enjoy skating, I cheer for skaters, I feel happy for them when they have good skates, and praise skaters when I can see their efforts and improvements in their skating. :yes: Good night, everyone!

 

[dorispulaski]

Goodnight, deedee1!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He didn't recieve silver thanks to his PCS but his TES.He fell but he fully rotated 4 of those jumps so he got credit according to the rules.Is it fair? well according to the rules it is
It's not his fault that falls aren't penalised more,and even if you give him 10 points lower PCS he would still have silver
How exactly would you have scored him ?

His technical elements I'm not debating. Under the rules, his TES of 75 points made sense. And the judges even took certain things into account like his ChSq getting 0's... I half-expected them to have given him +2's across the board. Some outliers, like the -2's on his falls, but that didn't really affect the final result. The issue was the judging of his PCS... in both his SP and his LP. One judge in his SP gave him 9.50/9.50/9.75/9.50/9.75 for a program with no quad, no combo, and a lutz error. That's a near perfect score for a program that had major technical problems. For his SP, my PCS scores would have been: 8.75/8.25/8.50/9.00/8.50.

In this FS, IMO, his PCS should have been lower than Dornbush's, and certainly lower than Kovtun. The only category he should have been on par/higher was SS. The falls were detrimental to the choreography, the transitions, the interpretation, and especially the performance/execution (8.75's for PE for a program with 5 falls is unheard of). And I don't blame Hanyu, I blame the judges for failing to incorporate this into their PCS. For the FS, my PCS would have been: 8.50/7.50/7.25/8.25/8.00

Most skaters need perfect skates to even clear 80 points PCS - Nguyen didn't even clear 70 points PCS when he was by far the cleanest of the men (other than Ge who had no quad)... so for somebody to go out there and fall 5 times and clear 84 points PCS must be really disheartening.

 

[lavender]

I'm in shock looking at Hanyu's face. He'e bruise up and just couldn't understand him skating. Halfway I just got emotional watching. Through it all he kept performing and he's just gotten so smooth on the ice. It's weird to see his overall skating skills improvement through 5 five falls but I did. Just get well Hanyu and Yan.

I'm just going to skip over the blaming post. Just sad.

 

[Meoima]

His technical elements I'm not debating. Under the rules, his TES of 75 points made sense. And the judges even took certain things into account like his ChSq getting 0's... I half-expected them to have given him +2's across the board. Some outliers, like the -2's on his falls, but that didn't really affect the final result. The issue was the judging of his PCS... in both his SP and his LP. One judge in his SP gave him 9.50/9.50/9.75/9.50/9.75 for a program with no quad, no combo, and a lutz error. That's a near perfect score for a program that had major technical problems. For his SP, my PCS scores would have been: 8.75/8.25/8.50/9.00/8.50.
In this FS, IMO, his PCS should have been lower than Dornbush's, and certainly lower than Kovtun. The only category he should have been on par/higher was SS. The falls were detrimental to the choreography, the transitions, the interpretation, and especially the performance/execution (8.75's for PE for a program with 5 falls is unheard of). And I don't blame Hanyu, I blame the judges for failing to incorporate this into their PCS. For the FS, my PCS would have been: 8.50/7.50/7.25/8.25/8.00
Most skaters need perfect skates to even clear 80 points PCS - Nguyen didn't even clear 70 points PCS when he was by far the cleanest of the men (other than Ge who had no quad)... so for somebody to go out there and fall 5 times and clear 84 points PCS must be really disheartening.

You know what. I just want to swear but I am trying not to. To be honest, I think you are happy that you have the chance to dissect those score. I wouldn't care. I agree with you that you are classless.

This topic has been talked over:

I think the vast majority of people, maybe 95%, agree that it makes no sense, but what's done has been done. I don't think the circumstances are right to debate PCS, this was too much of a freak outlier incident to judge by normal standards.

I think so too. Bless those people who can still think straight after they witnessed the accident directly in the ice rink.

We watched them collided through live stream and we are shock and worried until now. I wonder how people who were at the rink felt. Devastated, shock, overwhelming, bewildered...

Judges are human, too. They have been affected by the collision much worse than us.

The audience, and yes, judges are shell-shocked when there is such a horrible accident.

The judges are part of the arena audience too. I cannot believe they judged as precisely as they would have with no accident here at CoC, do this is probably not the event to dissect the judging on.

I have seen something like this. I was at Skate America when Totmianina had her terrible fall, and lay motionless on the ice. Very few in the audience could do anything but gasp and be appalled, but some did have the wit to shout to Marinin to not move her and wait for the EMT's, since a spine fracture is always a concern in a bad fall. Everyone, skaters, judges and all were not their normal selves.

I sincerely hope Han and Yuzuru are okay. Idk who to blame; their coaches, feds people, or the refree of the night, but I still can't believe they DID LET Han and Yuzuru skate after such dangerous collision... It's just BIG NO-NO.

As for final placements, TES, PCS, TSS or whatever, I can only say it's not the skaters fault. They played the game under the current rules, and we've known this rules is imperfect. period. If it may be my 128th time that I don't agree with results, so what? I've given it up a long time ago. hwell: I just 'try to' enjoy skating, I cheer for skaters, I feel happy for them when they have good skates, and praise skaters when I can see their efforts and improvements in their skating. :yes: Good night, everyone!

 

[Mathman]

He didn't recieve silver thanks to his PCS but his TES. He fell but he fully rotated 4 of those jumps so he got credit according to the rules. Is it fair?

It is fair in the sense that all competitors play by the same rules. But the rules make a mockery of the sport. A competitor should get credit only for a completed element, not for a valiant failure.

If a pole vaulter attempts 19 feet but knocks the bar off, he does not receive any points for having got 18 feet eleven inches off the ground, however difficult such a feat might be.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Meoima, I was providing scores because somebody asked me how I would have scored him... in which case, I said his TES was scored fairly for the most part, and then I said how I would have scored his PCS.

I get that people are upset about the whole situation, but I don't think that should prevent us from discussing the judging and rationale for their scores given the performances that were put out.

 

[demarinis5]

I'm in shock looking at Hanyu's face. He'e bruise up and just couldn't understand him skating. Halfway I just got emotional watching. Through it all he kept performing and he's just gotten so smooth on the ice. It's weird to see his overall skating skills improvement through 5 five falls but I did. Just get well Hanyu and Yan.

I'm just going to skip over the blaming post. Just sad.

I could not watch the videos of Yuzu's or Han's FS. Reading the descriptions in this thread was enough for me. I did see a clip of Yuzu in the K&C with the bandage wrapped around
his head and his face bruised and a clip of Han laying on the ground being attended to. Unbelievable that they both decided to skate.

On a brighter note Congrats to Ricky for his bronze medal win. Shout out to Ge for skating 2 great programs.