Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16
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Let's talk about Johnny Weir...
Well, we do veer off the topic on occasion. General thougths on components and artistry again, Dai, Johnny Weir. That's how we make the 30 pages. No harm no foul.
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Oh god, ILY.
I think many can say the same but there will be another name at Dai's space at times.FMI? Oh lord, honestly- when you put the words this way it sounds so very arrogant to me. Nope, Patrick leaves me cold most of the times. And nope, PCS is not equal artistic at this day and time, not anymore.
I myself grew up with long dead 6.0 system and I used to hate current system for a long time when 1 day I have read the great summer of 2014 (I guess?) Brian Orser interview transcript where he actually convinced me that the new system helped to award all round skaters. And I remember it because he used Stephane Lambiel as an example (and I believe that Stephane is one of the biggest artists of figure skating ever). That had to do with other elements like spins, step sequences, etc. But also- PCS.
And if you try to see PCS not as a 1 meaning field then you see the difference. As Maria Polonius kindly pointed out there are things that have nothing to do with artistry in a direct way.
Also- Patrick would not have a by default higher PCS mark with a low technical delivery, you can clearly see that even top contenders lose at PCS when they have a rough skate. Many factors could stand behind that roughness. Current system (unfortunately) is quite biased when it comes to clean technically delivered programs. Some skaters get higher PCS when they don't fall. So Patrick is not going to be safe thanks to components all the time. Not anymore. Because the Men's field is technically fantastic at the moment and with every season it will become even more competitive thanks to young guys who already started to compete at Senior level with their may I dare to say "non-artistic quads". I think that the most intriguing question that the upcoming pre-olympic seasons must answer clearly will be: PCS or TEC? I bet it on TEC but we shall see.
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Patrick has the best Skating Skills of the field. No question. But to say skating skills equals artistry will always garner much debate. It is, however, a very, very important part of figure skating so Patrick deserves to be marked highly in that area.
I'm a total philistine when it comes to thinking things are 'artistic' or not. From that stand point, all I consider is, is it engaging? Does it move me? Is it beautiful? If the answer is yes to any of those things then it has merit. If the answer is yes to all those things, then it's a winner. But that's not something that can be marked by a number so judges are right to break PCS down to those 'non artistic' components.
CH/IN are rarely ever marked outside of the scope of SS unfortunately...or fortunately? I don't know which.
I'm a total philistine when it comes to thinking things are 'artistic' or not. From that stand point, all I consider is, is it engaging? Does it move me? Is it beautiful? If the answer is yes to any of those things then it has merit. If the answer is yes to all those things, then it's a winner. But that's not something that can be marked by a number so judges are right to break PCS down to those 'non artistic' components.
CH/IN are rarely ever marked outside of the scope of SS unfortunately...or fortunately? I don't know which.
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Dai is magic on ice. He doesn't skate or dance to his music, he makes love to it. His 2012 WTT SP performance is EVERYTHING:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_OIF1YyQqg
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I LOVE that program! It is one of my favorites of all time.
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i tend to agree with canadianskaterguy here.... figure skating is a sport... i wouldn't call ANYBODY an artist when they are producing competitive programs... why do you think that they used to call is artistic "impression".... a program requires interpretation and musicality... but comparing it to "true" artists is a bit much... might as well say that some hockey players are artistically more advanced than the others because of the way they handle the puck... or what about the artists of the soccer field?
it's not because a competitive sport has music that it makes the skaters artists... the artists there are the musicians... there is music in gymnastics too and I would not refer to these wonderful athletes as artists... tumblers... sure...
are synchronized swimmer artists?
just the fact that there is a COP makes it not artistic... art implies seeking for beauty and freedom... not sure having to perform the 3 mandatory spins is really freedom....
I could agree to say that some EX programs are closer to the feeling of artistry....
sorry for the long verbiage but I felt the urge of sharing my perception on this...
so now... who has the best "artistic impression" since for me it is a sport, i look at the blades, the footwork, the intricacy of transition and as my name suggests, 4everchan is 4everchan
Hanyu is not far behind.... the others are VERY far behind those two.... but it doesn't matter as they still score quite well... ie fernandez 
PS... i am sure some of these skaters have artistic talent... for instance, Eric Radford composes music... others may paint.... but when they are on the ice, they are skaters ie athletes competing with set rules... and a will to win.... that's sport
it's not because a competitive sport has music that it makes the skaters artists... the artists there are the musicians... there is music in gymnastics too and I would not refer to these wonderful athletes as artists... tumblers... sure...
are synchronized swimmer artists?
just the fact that there is a COP makes it not artistic... art implies seeking for beauty and freedom... not sure having to perform the 3 mandatory spins is really freedom....
I could agree to say that some EX programs are closer to the feeling of artistry....
sorry for the long verbiage but I felt the urge of sharing my perception on this...
so now... who has the best "artistic impression" since for me it is a sport, i look at the blades, the footwork, the intricacy of transition and as my name suggests, 4everchan is 4everchan
Hanyu is not far behind.... the others are VERY far behind those two.... but it doesn't matter as they still score quite well... ie fernandez PS... i am sure some of these skaters have artistic talent... for instance, Eric Radford composes music... others may paint.... but when they are on the ice, they are skaters ie athletes competing with set rules... and a will to win.... that's sport
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Figure skating is an art and a sport. It's not scored as much as an art anymore, but that doesn't mean it isn't, nor that the scoring shouldn't reflect it. Dancing could also be an Olympic sport, and an art at the same time, if there were certain movements that were standardized as part of it and could be empirically scored. Although, part of the inherent draw of figure skating is that it allows a kind of "altered from reality" type of movement, something the human body can not do naturally.
Yeah, a kind of "athletic dancing" wouldn't allow complete freedom, but it doesn't mean something isn't an art either. If you tell a painter they can only use the colors red and green, they could still make some kind of great painting, as long as they are allowed to actually use those colors in the way they want. Filmmakers in many parts of the world and through many eras have been forbid from doing certain things but they too still are able to sometimes make something of immense worth under those specifications.
The possibilities of art are so endless that sometimes certain limitations are not a bad thing. As long as there isn't too much limitation and the artist isn't being forced to do something that is objectively ineffective (which is the problem the sport has faced under CoP).
Yeah, a kind of "athletic dancing" wouldn't allow complete freedom, but it doesn't mean something isn't an art either. If you tell a painter they can only use the colors red and green, they could still make some kind of great painting, as long as they are allowed to actually use those colors in the way they want. Filmmakers in many parts of the world and through many eras have been forbid from doing certain things but they too still are able to sometimes make something of immense worth under those specifications.
The possibilities of art are so endless that sometimes certain limitations are not a bad thing. As long as there isn't too much limitation and the artist isn't being forced to do something that is objectively ineffective (which is the problem the sport has faced under CoP).
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art with restrictions... as you are saying... giving a painter only two colours... becomes a trivial exercise... and sure, it may exceptionally lead to a masterpiece but it usually becomes a trick shot... that's not how I see art i think COP has restricted furthermore what skaters can do on the ice... as it forced them into a more competitive rather than performance style of skating... of course... compare plushenko or joubert footwork pre COP... exciting and very simple.... look at what skaters do nowadays, intricate but much slower and less effective for most of them.... regarding dance.... erm.... it depends... some of it is art... some of it for me is competition/sport, just as much as figure skating...
i understand here that we will definitely agree to disagree... but i think it's almost offensive when we talk about figure skating as art... when it is a competition sport where a triple lutz is worth 6 points and so on... as i said, for some skaters, EX programs are "artsier" but there's a difference between art and artsy.... like there's a difference between entertainment and art.
PS i think we can agree on one thing is that more and more, the ISU is driving figure skating more and more into a sport, otherwise, it may risk being removed from the OG.... personally, i enjoy figure skating as a more "objective LOL" sport... rather than an "artsy" attempt...
i think COP has restricted furthermore what skaters can do on the ice... as it forced them into a more competitive rather than performance style of skating... of course... compare plushenko or joubert footwork pre COP... exciting and very simple.... look at what skaters do nowadays, intricate but much slower and less effective for most of them.... regarding dance.... erm.... it depends... some of it is art... some of it for me is competition/sport, just as much as figure skating... i understand here that we will definitely agree to disagree... but i think it's almost offensive when we talk about figure skating as art... when it is a competition sport where a triple lutz is worth 6 points and so on... as i said, for some skaters, EX programs are "artsier" but there's a difference between art and artsy.... like there's a difference between entertainment and art.
PS i think we can agree on one thing is that more and more, the ISU is driving figure skating more and more into a sport, otherwise, it may risk being removed from the OG.... personally, i enjoy figure skating as a more "objective LOL" sport... rather than an "artsy" attempt...
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But then again, we speak of the art of plumbing. And, as a current TV ad reminds us, in baseball a pitcher who can "paint the corners" is called a "Rembrandt."
It does not offend my artistic soul to toss figure skating into the category of "performance art." Mime and juggling are performance arts, after all.
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i have mentioned the art of handling a puck but that's exactly my point.... figure skating is as artistic as that IMHO that's why I find it strange that people really get into such debate as "musicality in a skater is innate" and "he's an artist" etc.... none of this is accurate... and none of this should generate more points
do I love figure skating? YES. I wouldn't be here if I didn't... do I feel it feeds my artistic needs? no... for that, I will go to a museum or to the symphony... let's not compare apples and oranges
but that's exactly my point.... figure skating is as artistic as that IMHO that's why I find it strange that people really get into such debate as "musicality in a skater is innate" and "he's an artist" etc.... none of this is accurate... and none of this should generate more points do I love figure skating? YES. I wouldn't be here if I didn't... do I feel it feeds my artistic needs? no... for that, I will go to a museum or to the symphony... let's not compare apples and oranges
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I don't think I was being arrogant. It's merely stating a fact. Not every skater reaches every audience member artistically so you can't really hold it against Chan for not doing that - like I said, you can't please everyone, and every skater/team has fans and haters.
Also, when all of the top skaters have skated clean, Chan has gotten the highest PCS marks (so that's simply stating facts as well). And it's a rather considerable margin of 3 points over Takahashi/Hanyu (who received their personal bests at World Team Trophy), at that.
PCS personal bests in the FS:
Chan: 96.50 (TEB 2013)
Takahashi: 93.58 (WTT 2012, home ice)
Hanyu: 93.36 (WTT 2015, home ice)
Ten: 91.40 (4CC 2015)
Fernandez: 91.18 (WC 2014)
Brown: 89.14 (WTT 2015)
Also, feel free to add another quarter to the "Chan's skating leaves me cold" cliché jar.
It's totally fine if you have that opinion (after all, everyone experiences programs/skaters in various ways), but the majority of the figure skating world does not share that opinion, sorry.Dai is the top probably in terms of musicality, interpretation and originality/creativity (certainly better than Chan), but there are also qualities that Patrick Chan has that Takahashi could have only hoped for, particularly Patrick's level of skating skills, and better quality of jumps (and quad toe consistency). Not to mention, Chan is slightly more decorated... but I don't think accolades were Takahashi's main priority or contribution to the sport (even though he did win some major competitions, including Worlds).
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Honestly I find the whole argument "who will skate the cleanest will come out on top" to have aa big fallacy:right now the two skaters are attempting two very different layaouts, and if Chan doesn't change his current planned content his only way to beat hanyu is for the latter to implode badly. Right now if Yuzuru rotates all his jumps and hits all the levels of his spin and stele he will have a base value of 96. Patrick on the other hand will be lucky to have a BV of 80 since he attempts just one quad, one 3axel and he will not go for the 3lutz1/2loop3salchov... That's a 16 point differente just there. Quote the big gap IMO
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I don't think I was being arrogant. It's merely stating a fact. Not every skater reaches every audience member artistically so you can't really hold it against Chan for not doing that - like I said, you can't please everyone, and every skater/team has fans and haters.
Also, when all of the top skaters have skated clean, Chan has gotten the highest PCS marks (so that's simply stating facts as well). And it's a rather considerable margin of 3 points over Takahashi/Hanyu (who received their personal bests at World Team Trophy), at that.
PCS personal bests in the FS:
Chan: 96.50 (TEB 2013)
Takahashi: 93.58 (WTT 2012, home ice)
Hanyu: 93.36 (WTT 2015, home ice)
Ten: 91.40 (4CC 2015)
Fernandez: 91.18 (WC 2014)
Brown: 89.14 (WTT 2015)
Also, feel free to add another quarter to the "Chan's skating leaves me cold" cliché jar.
Dai is the top probably in terms of musicality, interpretation and originality/creativity (certainly better than Chan), but there are also qualities that Patrick Chan has that Takahashi could have only hoped for, particularly Patrick's level of skating skills, and better quality of jumps (and quad toe consistency). Not to mention, Chan is slightly more decorated... but I don't think accolades were Takahashi's main priority or contribution to the sport (even though he did win some major competitions, including Worlds).
Well I'm sorry he blew out his knee and wasn't able to keep up with the technical content. Comparing the two, Patrick has almost no personality on the ice. Dai is nothing BUT personality (had far superior programs on the whole, as well) and as such is much, much more engaging an enjoyable to watch. Even Yuzu has more personality when he skates than Patrick.
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To me, Patrick's best performance, and the one that showed his personality best, was his first Canadian Nationals championship. Obviously he wasn't going for soulful, like Takahashi, it was more "Look what I can do!" 
He should have skated to, "I can do that!" from Chorus Line.
Once he started adding quads and skating with more maturity, the rambunctious boy disappeared. Oh well. It happens to all of us.
He should have skated to, "I can do that!" from Chorus Line.Once he started adding quads and skating with more maturity, the rambunctious boy disappeared. Oh well. It happens to all of us.
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To me, Patrick's best performance, and the one that showed his personality best, was his first Canadian Nationals championship. Obviously he wasn't going for soulful, like Takahashi, it was more "Look what I can do!"
Once he started adding quads and skating with more maturity, the rambunctious boy disappeared. Oh well. It happens to all of us.
exactly... maturity, refinement is much more important IMHO than winking at the audience or flapping arms around
Realistically, how many points can Patrick gain on Yuzuru in PCS? At best 5? I doubt it would be that much. How many points Yuzuru can gain on Patrick in TES? 20?
Yuzuru has 2 falls buffer on him. (as long as he can execute all of his planned content. Popping a quad would be costly )
Yuzuru has 2 falls buffer on him. (as long as he can execute all of his planned content. Popping a quad would be costly )
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