When a Waltz Is Not a Waltz: Penalties/Changes

[uhh]

You could ask the same about why some lifts only get level 2, or why people get costume deductions... It's all stuff that people should know in theory. But I guess that what happens is that people get taken with a particular idea, because maybe they love that piece of music, or they think it will make them stand out. Maybe it fits 75% of the requirements, so you try to twist the other 25% by altering the tempo, or adding a drum beat or whatever, and sometimes your gamble pays off and the judges accept it, and sometimes you get told to make a change or ditch the whole thing.

C/B & W/P both will have been to their national performance camps with their old programs, so it was signed off at that level, and neither of them got music deductions at their events, so technically they were OK with their choices. It sounds more like the feedback for both of them was that the judges didn't love the programs & thought there were question marks, for C/B in particular. Just speculating, but I think W/P is more of a kneejerk panic reaction to their disappointing scores at Finlandia. The rhythms were OK, they got good levels apart from on the twizzles but the PCS & overall score wasn't great, and many people were commenting online that the program was a bit dull & safe. Maybe they just didn't have faith that it would keep them competitive this year.

 

[Snow63]

I am no expert in music or ice dance requirements. However, their teams surely are the second and can hire the first, so why on earth is getting music that fits the laid down ISU requirements for a particular dance so difficult? I don't get it. It is like what I tell students in exams: read the rubric and do exactly what it requires or you will lose marks. I am confused as to how this is happening?

It's like almost every team thought 'Oh, we'll do something creative and out of the box' or 'Let's surprise the judges with our creative and out of the box amazing waltz'. And now it seem like some teams (Chock/Bates and Weaver/Poje) have back thoughts about that, probably because there's almost zero (NONE) quality classic dances and this spot is open for grabs. It's not always about 3/4 time requirement probably, because Chock/Bates music clearly meets this requirement, but the overall expression of most of the SD'es is 'we're trying too hard'.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

It's like almost every team thought 'Oh, we'll do something creative and out of the box' or 'Let's surprise the judges with our creative and out of the box amazing waltz'. And now it seem like some teams (Chock/Bates and Weaver/Poje) have back thoughts about that, probably because there's almost zero (NONE) quality classic dances and this spot is open for grabs. It's not always about 3/4 time requirement probably, because Chock/Bates music clearly meet this requirement, but the overall expression of most of the SD'es is 'we're trying too hard'.

So, do you think the tumblr post linked above got this right?:

“Dark Eyes” may be a waltz, but has variations in tempo throughout the song, perhaps exaggerated a bit more in a pops arrangement like the Andre Rieu. The section C/B use for their Ravensburger starts out around 160 bpm for the first pattern and gets into the 170s by the second. ISU’s requirement for the Ravensburger is 198 +/- 3 bpm, maintained throughout the entirety of the pattern. Their partial step sequence is also required to maintain a constant unspecified tempo but it very clearly speeds up.

 

[NoNameFace]

To be honest, regarding these instant changes in SD for 2 top teams, I wonder if this would happen IF Gabriella and Guillaume were in shape and presented their SD already AND if it would have received solid scores - based on reports their SD choice is extremely risky for RW (pattern) rhythm/tempo perspective ('Charms' from W.E. OST)...This actually kinda worries me, looking forward to see all duos in Skate America tomorrow.

 

[Snow63]

So, do you think the tumblr post linked above got this right?:

I'm not a musical expert honestly, but I counted around 201 bpm (67 measures of 3 beats) during RW pattern? :scratch: I counted by ear and with my watch, so maybe I did something wrong Someone, please help!

But the second part about PSt is correct: 'The Partial Step Sequence must be skated on one of the other Rhythms selected for the season, in the style of that Rhythm. The tempo of the music throughout the Partial Step Sequence is not specified, but must be constant.' (According to Communication No. 1932, p.3.1).

Edit: it was about Chock/Bates.

 

[Ice Dance]

And now it seem like some teams (Chock/Bates and Weaver/Poje) have back thoughts about that, probably because there's almost zero (NONE) quality classic dances and this spot is open for grabs.

There was at least one high-level quality classic SD debut that no top team can afford to ignore, performed by the 2014 World ice dance gold medalists. That should be enough to make a couple other world medalists take note.

 

[Snow63]

There was at least one high-level quality classic SD debut that no top team can afford to ignore, performed by the 2014 World ice dance gold medalists. That should be enough to make a couple other world medalists take note.

With this I agree.

 

[TarAncalime]

I know for certain that C/B got a hint from the technical specialist, she is my coach in my ice dance class! Their rhytm didnt fit to the RW pattern. She let us do the waltz and explained the differences. Learning by doing yourself is always the best experience ! She also told us that they, the judges and technical controllers discussed for 2 hours afterwards about what is a waltz....or not!

 

[gravy]

With this I agree.

Yep. Definitely my favorite waltz from the ones we have seen so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuZG-yK5BOI

I'm also waiting to see Yanovskaya/Mozgov's SD at a better quality than the Russian test skate before making judgment since they're using a favorite piece of mine: 'My Sweet & Tender Beast'.

 

[Barb]

I know for certain that C/B got a hint from the technical specialist, she is my coach in my ice dance class! Their rhytm didnt fit to the RW pattern. She let us do the waltz and explained the differences. Learning by doing yourself is always the best experience ! She also told us that they, the judges and technical controllers discussed for 2 hours afterwards about what is a waltz....or not!

Now, I am worried about P/C.

 

[4everchan]

all i can say is that from listening to PC's music, it's not in a steady 3/4 pattern... i heard different patterns, most notably 6/8. 6/8 for those who are not musicians, "may" sound like it's divided into 3 beats, like a waltz, but it isn't... it's a compound meter having 2 beats per measure.... (each beat being divided into 3)... so it gives 1 and and 2 and and... not 1 and 2 and 3 and , which is found in a waltz pattern. in an case, i am curious to see if they will even come back this season first... and then we can talk about their music

 

[GF2445]

Personally, the 6/8 patter for the walts if preferable over fhe 3/4.
6/8 has a more lilting feel, which is more apporpiate for a dance like the waltz.
3/4 is quite strict. Makes you feel restricted.

 

[chameleon]

I'm not even sure if P/C are only using Charms for their SD. I wouldn't think so, but obviously I don't know yet.

G/P don't seem to have made changes to their SD, unless they're planning on surprising us tomorrow, so I would assume that the judges aren't automatically against modern SDs and instead were questioning the rhythms. If I had to guess, I'd say the judges weren't sure whether or not the rhythms were correct for C/B and W/P, and so decided to be nice but let them know that it could be an issue.

 

[uhh]

I've heard the the issue for W/P wasn't the waltz but what they were claiming was a foxtrot - some judges didn't quite agree with their assessment.

 

[dorispulaski]

Very interesting. I don't think I know of a case where the secondary rhythm earned a penalty. If judge panels are going there, there are going to be some very controversial results for sure.

 

[seabm7]

Rebeka Kim / Kirill Minov of Korea changed their partial step sequence music after Ice Star due to -2 deduction. But they ended up getting -2 again at Mordovian Ornament. Aurelia Ippolito / Bennet Preiss of Germany also got the music deduction at the same event, though I do not know the reason.

 

[4everchan]

but waltzes are written in 3/4. not in 6/8… i am not sure what you mean. the AND after 3, is where you get your lift to go the the 1 of the next bar… in 6/8, you may get that impression from (6) to 1, but from 3 to 4 it's not strong at all so it weakens the whole sense of 3.

Personally, the 6/8 patter for the walts if preferable over fhe 3/4.
6/8 has a more lilting feel, which is more apporpiate for a dance like the waltz.
3/4 is quite strict. Makes you feel restricted.

 

[chameleon]

What precisely was it about W/P's partial that the judges wanted them to change? That is, was there a possibility of them getting a deduction, or was it more of the judges' preference rather than anything that was actually against the rules?

 

[caitie]

What precisely was it about W/P's partial that the judges wanted them to change? That is, was there a possibility of them getting a deduction, or was it more of the judges' preference rather than anything that was actually against the rules?

The partial step sequence this season is supposed to be skated to foxtrot, march, or polka rhythm. (I think so, anyway.) I guess the judges felt W/P's music choice did not meet this requirement.

 

[Snow63]

I'm not a musical expert honestly, but I counted around 201 bpm (67 measures of 3 beats) during RW pattern? :scratch: I counted by ear and with my watch, so maybe I did something wrong Someone, please help!

So I take it no one can say if it's correct or not?
I asked my wife to count, and she had exactly 198 bpm with constant tempo during both 1RW and 2RW (she's no musician too). I want to know if their waltz part of the SD meets the requirements, and the problem is only with other rhythm?

And I thought Weaver/Poje's 'Elvis waltz' was to 6/8 not to 3/4. Too bad most judges and technical panels are no musicians also and can't or afraid to call for a deduction where it's clearly needed. Same goes for Hubbel/Donohue. :disapp: