When a Waltz Is Not a Waltz: Penalties/Changes

[beebee51]

Good point Doris. It should effect the PCS Timing and Interpretation score. Of course, the deduction can be based on the rhythms of the non-pattern portion of the SD--this season Foxtrot, March, or Polka. I've questioned this on a number of occasions, most recently with I/Z. They didn't get a deduction, but WWRY does not seem to be a Foxtrot, March, or Polka. Many fans have even suggested that their costumes should have more of a rock feel. Makes me wonder.

 

[seabm7]

Is it more than 2 points, because the deduction requires mandatory deductions on all Pattern Dance sequences, and generally affects the timing and interpretation PCS grade as well.

So does that mean the deductions will be 2 x 2 = 4 points if the timing of the Waltz is wrong? While the music deduction of the partial step sequence is 2 points?

 

[chameleon]

Good point Doris. It should effect the PCS Timing and Interpretation score. Of course, the deduction can be based on the rhythms of the non-pattern portion of the SD--this season Foxtrot, March, or Polka. I've questioned this on a number of occasions, most recently with I/Z. They didn't get a deduction, but WWRY does not seem to be a Foxtrot, March, or Polka. Many fans have even suggested that their costumes should have more of a rock feel. Makes me wonder.

I/Z wouldn't be where I'd look for a deduction first, their SD is unusual but SBTL is 3/4 time for the waltz, and WWRY is the required 4/4 time for the partial, they're going for a March. I don't see too many people getting deductions for their second rhythm because I think everyone has been using 4/4 time so far? Although I could be wrong, I've mostly been focusing on why so many teams seem to dislike 3/4 time.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think after having so many similar pasos last season, that a lot of teams were like, "Let's try to go out of the box for the waltz" Except that almost everyone decided to do that.

 

[chameleon]

So does that mean the deductions will be 2 x 2 = 4 points if the timing of the Waltz is wrong? While the music deduction of the partial step sequence is 2 points?

No, I think there would just be one rhythm deduction. But as I believe you have to time the steps in the pattern to the correct beat, if your beat is off, at best you can get a T for that keypoint, if the judges are feeling generous. So having your waltz music not be the correct rhythm or tempo can really tank your TES, if the judges call you on it.

 

[Ice Dance]

if the judges call you on it.

If they "call you on it" once, the next panel is going to be watching you like a hawk the next time you skate. I think this is a really important discussion. Because, as has been mentioned, there are a lot of teams playing with fire in the SD this season.

And in a field with two world champions (P&C and C&L), 3 European champions (+B&S), a GPF champion (W&P), the reigning silver medalists from Worlds/GPF/4CC's (C&B), and some up & comers whose various legitimate results look to have the potential to knock one or more of those teams out of a slot should the experienced medalists make a mistake, this could be a very hotly contested season.

 

[chameleon]

Well, presumably if a team gets a music deduction before the end of the season, they'll change their music. The problem occurs if, as has happened in the past, the judges for whatever reason don't give team(s) a music deduction until worlds. I think this happened to Agafonova/Ucar at 2013 Worlds, they were 13th at Euros with a SD score of 50.79, and then at Worlds they were second to last in the SD with 43.98 and didn't make the FD cut. Looking at the protocols, not only did they get the music deduction, four of their keypoints were called as T.

While there is always the possibility that none of the judging panels will mark you down for it, it just seems like an unnecessary risk to take, especially as not getting called on it in the first half of the season does not necessarily mean you'll get away with it at the bigger competitions.

 

[sunnystars]

^

no problem!

 

[Tallorder]

The sad part is that the majority of judges barely have anything approaching sufficiently sophisticated knowledge of rhythm, meter, etc. They are easily swayed by incomprehensible and typically politically motivated inferences. If only a minority of judges consider "pressing the button" to indicate a music deduction, it is not likely to be taken. If a middling number of judges consider this to be an issue, it becomes the discretion of the referee.

However, in the case that a music deduction was contemplated by some judges, but ultimately NOT taken, indications as such do not even appear on the protocols. Knowledge of any deductions indicated are only discussed during judge's round table, but not made public or formally disclosed.

Classic "limited disclosure" back room tactics, manipulation potential. SO figure skating, isn't it?

 

[seabm7]

Beverley Smith tweeted about SD of Weaver and Poje: "Strauss"

https://twitter.com/BevSmithWrites/status/656992498146017280

 

[Ice Dance]

Well, presumably if a team gets a music deduction before the end of the season, they'll change their music.

Yep. Or if the judges suggest the music isn't "quite right."

Here we go.

 

[Ice Dance]

Also, from the Skate America SD thread about Chock & Bates:

SD Music: "More" by Andrea Bocelli and "Unchained Melody" by Il Divo

Both sources--about Weaver & Poje's new "Strauss" SD music and Chock and Bates's new music--say the reason behind the changed music is to make the rhythms more clear to the judges. I think our conversation about the SD rhythms was extremely well timed.

 

[bramweld]

Also, from the Skate America SD thread about Chock & Bates:




Both sources--about Weaver & Poje's new "Strauss" SD music and Chock and Bates's new music--say the reason behind the changed music is to make the rhythms more clear to the judges. I think our conversation about the SD rhythms was extremely well timed.

I wonder if H/D will change theirs as well?

 

[Snow63]

Also, from the Skate America SD thread about Chock & Bates:




Both sources--about Weaver & Poje's new "Strauss" SD music and Chock and Bates's new music--say the reason behind the changed music is to make the rhythms more clear to the judges. I think our conversation about the SD rhythms was extremely well timed.

So Weaver/Poje decided to go classic? This is extremely right decision in my opinion.
I expect more teams to follow.

 

[tulosai]

I am actually really disappointed in both W/P and C/B's music changes but especially C/B. I think that was a really good vehicle for them and this is a mistake.

 

[Snow63]

I am actually really disappointed in both W/P and C/B's music changes but especially C/B. I think that was a really good vehicle for them and this is a mistake.

I agree about Chock/Bates, but there is a rumour in russian forum that it was their original first option for the SD. Remember Igor said they changed SD music before the start of the season? And maybe the idea is to show 2 SD'es to the judges, and then to choose the best one for the Worlds at Boston. OR maybe they received a hint from someone (maybe tech specialist) at Nebelhorn that it would be best to choose something different. Although, the arragement of 'Dark eyes' they have chosen for their second SD is clearly 3/4 piece of music.

As for Weaver/Poje, their Elvis waltz was so bad, that ANY change would be for better, in my opinion.

 

[tulosai]

I agree about Chock/Bates, but there is a rumour in russian forum that it was their original first option for the SD. Remember Igor said they changed SD music before the start of the season? And maybe the idea is to show 2 SD'es to the judges, and then to choose the best one for the Worlds at Boston. OR maybe they received a hint from someone (maybe tech specialist) at Nebelhorn that it would be best to choose something different. Although, the arragement of 'Dark eyes' they have chosen for their second SD is clearly 3/4 piece of music.

As for Weaver/Poje, their Elvis waltz was so bad, that ANY change would be for better, in my opinion.

Yes that is why I am confused by the reason given by C/B- as you say it was very clear 3/4 time, very easily countable and identifiable actually...

 

[Abraxis12345]

This is a pretty good analysis of what may have been wrong with both Weaver and Poje's and Chock and Bates' SD's.

http://comradejewbear.tumblr.com/post/131677944613/ohtheseskaters-theicedancekingdom

Also, I believe Chock and Bates' original SD was going to be Sleeping Beauty

 

[Snow63]

Also, I believe Chock and Bates' original SD was going to be Sleeping Beauty

So this is actually their THIRD short dance? :shocked: Oh my, this is not good.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I am no expert in music or ice dance requirements. However, their teams surely are the second and can hire the first, so why on earth is getting music that fits the laid down ISU requirements for a particular dance so difficult? I don't get it. It is like what I tell students in exams: read the rubric and do exactly what it requires or you will lose marks. I am confused as to how this is happening?