A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[peg]

Thanks for clarifying! I wasn't sure how you meant to determine how the extra spots would be awarded, so I tried to think in specifics and came up with this.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I think may have been clearer in one of the other threads where this was discussed.

Basically, I meant to take the top 6 and then an extra two spots for the next best qualifiers from those who were at TEB. I swear the specifics were always really clear in my mind

 

[andromache]

Here's a question. Are Patrick, Max, Ashley and all the other Gold Medalists in the Final regardless of what happens or do they need another event to qualify?

I believe it's possible to qualify with one win, but it depends on how others do in their events if the points will be enough.

 

[peg]

Here's a question. Are Patrick, Max, Ashley and all the other Gold Medalists in the Final regardless of what happens or do they need another event to qualify?

No, they're not automatically in the final. The placement from the second event also counts, which is partly why so many people are worried about just using the TEB SP scores.

Patrick is quite likely to qualify because he won SC and was 5th in the SP here. Max would probably not qualify because his first and 7th would leave him too far down in the standings. Ashley has a good shot of making it, but if she were to wind up in 6th or 7th place in her next GP event she wouldn't. (possibly even 4th or 5th place wouldn't do it depending on how others did, but I haven't done the math on that)

 

[mrrice]

Is Ashley at this Event?? I thought Gracie was here? I need a drink. Never mind. :noshake:

 

[peg]

Is Ashley at this Event?? I thought Gracie was here? I need a drink.

Yes, it's Gracie who is at TEB, but you did ask about Ashley

And Gracie didn't win her other event; she came second.

A drink sounds like a fine idea

 

[mrrice]

Yes, it's Gracie who is at TEB, but you did ask about Ashley

And Gracie didn't win her other event; she came second.

A drink sounds like a fine idea

How could I possibly forget after the "Lip" Tirade I went on. Thanks peg.

 

[peg]

How could I possibly forget after the "Lip" Tirade I went on. Thanks peg.

I think I missed the Lip tirade...

Should I even ask?

 

[mrrice]

I think I missed the Lip tirade...

Should I even ask?

Not to be confused with Yulia Lipnitskaya. The "Lip" tirade has to do with Gracie lipping her Flip. I still don't understand what a LIP is in skating.

 

[karne]

Not to be confused with Yulia Lipnitskaya. The "Lip" tirade has to do with Gracie lipping her Flip. I still don't understand what a LIP is in skating.

It is a flip jump that does not take off on the inside edge (and is therefore incorrect technique). Not difficult.

 

[mrrice]

It is a flip jump that does not take off on the inside edge (and is therefore incorrect technique). Not difficult.

Karne...........That was mean. :sad21: It's difficult if you're me.......I even watched a video of it on Youtube. It looked like a Lutz.

 

[karne]

Karne...........That was mean. :sad21: It's difficult if you're me.......I even watched a video of it on Youtube. It looked like a Lutz.

I am sorry.

For some/most skaters, you can usually pick what they intended to do by the entry - most flips will be entered by a forward outside three turn or a mohawk. A Lutz, different to a lip, will have counter-rotation of the upper body. Hmm. Let me think how to describe this.

For me, the feeling - probably exacerbated by the fact that I do mine from a three-turn - is that a flip, taking off from the inside edge, will turn on its own, but the turn for a Lutz must be forced. However, with a lip, the jump still has that turn-on-its-own factor, but the inside edge is not there.

 

[mrrice]

I am sorry.

For some/most skaters, you can usually pick what they intended to do by the entry - most flips will be entered by a forward outside three turn or a mohawk. A Lutz, different to a lip, will have counter-rotation of the upper body. Hmm. Let me think how to describe this.

For me, the feeling - probably exacerbated by the fact that I do mine from a three-turn - is that a flip, taking off from the inside edge, will turn on its own, but the turn for a Lutz must be forced. However, with a lip, the jump still has that turn-on-its-own factor, but the inside edge is not there.

Karne, can you name a skater who is big "Lipper" that I can study in hope of figuring this out? I learned what a flutz was by watching (Sorry) Sarah Hughes. She'd set up for a Lutz and then she'd change to an inside edge. I saw it first hand at Worlds in 2001 when she did one right in front of me. My skating wife Maria Butyrskaya had her problems but, the Woman had a Lutz like a dream......

 

[havefun]

- Run a spreadsheet of top 10 GPF skaters last year, taking the average of 2 SPs and 2 LPs divided by 4.....see if that number was consistent with top 6 that made the GPF last year.
- Then run a spreadsheet for those skaters at TEB with 2 SPs and 1 LP divided by 3 and those that have skated 2 SPs and 2 LPs divided by 4. That final number may indicate as close as possible those skaters that will attend this years GPF.
- If necessary establish a percentage margin of error that 2 more skaters/teams per event can fill.

Basically you are rewarding points instead of just placement. Skaters like, Patrick, Liza, Max and others who have the ability to score a high Free Skate, have a possibility of qualifying based on a high TES or PCS that they have proven to be capable of this season. once all events have been completed and all scores are averaged.

Most of all my heart bleeds for the families of the victims from these horrific events and those with severe injuries. It seems many of these victims were relatively young. I cannot imagine what the parents, siblings, friends and relatives of these victims must be going through.

 

[hydroblader]

My suggestion for selecting GP finalists would depend on the following premises.
1. Logistically it would not be feasible for have all the athletes compete their LP In one venue, prior to the GPF , which IMHO would be the fairest.
2. Keep the SP scores because it wouldn't be fair to not acknowledge the efforts, both good and bad by all the athletes.
3. Find a away to make the TEB SP results reflect their value compared to the other complete events.

I would suggest re weighting the values of the GP events. Keep the SP scores of TEB as the official scores, but minimize the effect of no LP scores by decreasing the value of a skater lower scoring event.

So double the value of a skater's highest scoring event, and allow the lower scoring event to stand , whether it is TEB or otherwise. If a skater won both events, they would score 30 + 15 = 45 and still be the highest scoring possibility. But if they ended up fifth in TEB, for example, or any other event, they would score 30 + 7 = 37. So it increases the value of the highest event and decreases the impact of the second event. This way it could benefit any skater whose second event was significantly worse, but if they skated well in the first event, it would reward them. This doesn't penalize anyone who has skated well in an event and gives any skater a chance to minimize there lower score.
So if a skater did poorly in TEB for example, that score could be minimized if they skated well in another event. If they skated well at TEB, that score could be used as the highest score which would be doubled. So they are rewarded for skating well at TEB. All other skaters can boost their best score and decrease the value of the worst score. So all skaters can take advantage of this.

 

[karne]

Karne, can you name a skater who is big "Lipper" that I can study in hope of figuring this out? I learned what a flutz was by watching (Sorry) Sarah Hughes. She'd set up for a Lutz and then she'd change to an inside edge. I saw it first hand at Worlds in 2001 when she did one right in front of me. My skating wife Maria Butyrskaya had her problems but, the Woman had a Lutz like a dream......

Hmm. I will have to think about this and find some examples. I'll get back to you!

 

[havefun]

Agreed....basically numbers and law of average with a percentage margin for error included will provide a consistent result. Margin of error can be accounted for by adding a couple spots per discipline. My only adjustment would be going with scores and not placement. A broader number and one that accounts for skaters with high technical content and/or PCS relative to top 10 skaters in each discipline.

My suggestion for selecting GP finalists would depend on the following premises.
1. Logistically it would not be feasible for have all the athletes compete their LP In one venue, prior to the GPF , which IMHO would be the fairest.
2. Keep the SP scores because it wouldn't be fair to not acknowledge the efforts, both good and bad by all the athletes.
3. Find a away to make the TEB SP results reflect their value compared to the other complete events.

I would suggest re weighting the values of the GP events. Keep the SP scores of TEB as the official scores, but minimize the effect of no LP scores by decreasing the value of a skater lower scoring event.

So double the value of a skater's highest scoring event, and allow the lower scoring event to stand , whether it is TEB or otherwise. If a skater won both events, they would score 30 + 15 = 45 and still be the highest scoring possibility. But if they ended up fifth in TEB, for example, or any other event, they would score 30 + 7 = 37. So it increases the value of the highest event and decreases the impact of the second event. This way it could benefit any skater whose second event was significantly worse, but if they skated well in the first event, it would reward them. This doesn't penalize anyone who has skated well in an event and gives any skater a chance to minimize there lower score.
So if a skater did poorly in TEB for example, that score could be minimized if they skated well in another event. If they skated well at TEB, that score could be used as the highest score which would be doubled. So they are rewarded for skating well at TEB. All other skaters can boost their best score and decrease the value of the worst score. So all skaters can take advantage of this.

 

[mrrice]

Hmm. I will have to think about this and find some examples. I'll get back to you!

Awesome............:agree:

 

[gravy]

Karne, can you name a skater who is big "Lipper" that I can study in hope of figuring this out? I learned what a flutz was by watching (Sorry) Sarah Hughes. She'd set up for a Lutz and then she'd change to an inside edge. I saw it first hand at Worlds in 2001 when she did one right in front of me. My skating wife Maria Butyrskaya had her problems but, the Woman had a Lutz like a dream......

Miki Ando is a chronic lipper. She didn't even attempt any when she won her second world title.

Here is her 2007 Worlds FS where she does four lutzes; be warned, terrible spins and offensive spirals lie ahead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RUy4tGtE_k

 

[havefun]

Wow just slo-mo'd Gracie's Flip ...Obvious Lip and she places the jump so it is difficult for the technical panel and judges to see. She should be penalized for this and would be if she was from a smaller federation. Doesn't Sotnikova Lip?

 

[karne]

Miki Ando is a chronic lipper. She didn't even attempt any when she won her second world title.

Here is her 2007 Worlds FS where she does four lutzes; be warned, terrible spins and offensive spirals lie ahead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RUy4tGtE_k

I am not certain this will help mrrice's confusion any, but for their reference, the first jump combo is a lutz, the third jump is meant to be a flip, the fourth jump is a lutz, and the sixth jump combo is meant to be a flip.

Also, the super-excited Japanese male commentator is adorable!