A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[4everchan]

yup… i am not sure why people disagree with this… because max and liza will most likely be out? or even chan? who cares…they could have skated better.

taking SP as final is the only reasonable and acceptable, because everyone had equal chance , equal judging. , it should end with it. Skaters were there, they skated program. It's only one good way.

 

[sabinfire]

Haven't got a clue what is in the ISU rule book about this if anything! okay, I wasn't sure whether you thought that was best or what. That's why I asked.

I have no idea. If skaters are never given an opportunity to complete their programs, I don't see how any option is fair.

The SP scores solution doesn't seem as easy as some suggest, and will likely have ramifications for other skaters who didn't compete at TEB.

How would tie-breakers work for qualifying to the GPF? Should a SP at TEB beat out someone who skated both their programs at a different event (maybe even after placing first in the long or short)? That doesn't seem fair.

Do TEB skaters automatically lose most of the other tie-breaker scenarios, because they didn't receive enough points from one program to beat someone with two program?

 

[mrrice]

yup… i am not sure why people disagree with this… because max and liza will most likely be out? or even chan? who cares…they could have skated better.

My problem with Patrick and Max not making the final is the fact that they both have Grand Prix Gold Medals. I'm sure they were both determined to make a huge comeback in the Free Program. The way the scoring system is, this is completely possible given their technical abilities. Weren't there 2 GPF's one season in 2003? I seem to remember Sasha winning one and Fumie winning the other one. Did that actually happen or did I just dream that?

 

[4everchan]

it's actually not that often that tiebreakers go much further than the 1st tiebreaker which has nothing to do with the amount of points.

there could be case by case done if needed… not a major issue.

You know, it happens that sporting events are cancelled due to weather… skiing is a great example… some contenders lose major points there, that would count towards world cup… sometimes one part of a race is completed but the other part canceled. i fail to see why so many don't understand this.

I have no idea. If skaters are never given an opportunity to complete their programs, I don't see how any option is fair.

The SP scores solution doesn't seem as easy as some suggest, and will likely have ramifications for other skaters who didn't compete at TEB.

How would tie-breakers work for qualifying to the GPF? Should a SP at TEB beat out someone who skated both their programs at a different event (maybe even after placing first in the long or short)? That doesn't seem fair.

Do TEB skaters automatically lose most of the other tie-breaker scenarios, because they didn't receive enough points from one program to beat someone with two program?

 

[4everchan]

it won't be the first time a gold medallist doesn't make it to the finals… i am sure they both were planning to have a great SP too… it didn't happen… nobody can tell how the FP would have been skated… nobody…. as for 2003… no idea… i'll let others reply

My problem with Patrick and Max not making the final is the fact that they both have Grand Prix Gold Medals. I'm sure they were both determined to make a huge comeback in the Free Program. The way the scoring system is, this is completely possible given their technical abilities. Weren't there 2 GPF's one season in 2003? I seem to remember Sasha winning one and Fumie winning the other one. Did that actually happen or did I just dream that?

 

[formersk8ter]

Patrick, Liza, Max (and others who didn't have great SPs here) had an EQUAL opportunity to go out and skate great short programs, as much as everyone else. They didn't.

I'm sure they all wanted to skate great and none of them intentionally skated weak SPs, or were thinking "oh well, if I don't skate a great short that's okay, I can make it up in the FP."

 

[qwerty]

My problem with Patrick and Max not making the final is the fact that they both have Grand Prix Gold Medals. I'm sure they were both determined to make a huge comeback in the Free Program. The way the scoring system is, this is completely possible given their technical abilities. Weren't there 2 GPF's one season in 2003? I seem to remember Sasha winning one and Fumie winning the other one. Did that actually happen or did I just dream that?

I had to look it up, but yes, in 2003 there were 2 GPFs, one held for the 02-03 season in Feb-Mar (Sasha won), and the 03-04 in Dec (Fumie won).

 

[sabinfire]

it's actually not that often that tiebreakers go much further than the 1st tiebreaker which has nothing to do with the amount of points.

Okay, so let's work with the first tiebreaker, then.

Do you think a WR-setting FS/FD should lose to a SP from TEB? Because it could happen...

 

[4everchan]

i am not interested in speculating further than this

Okay, so let's work with the first tiebreaker, then.

Do you think a WR-setting FS/FD should lose to a SP from TEB? Because it could happen...

 

[mrrice]

Patrick, Liza, Max (and others who didn't have great SPs here) had an EQUAL opportunity to go out and skate great short programs, as much as everyone else. They didn't.

I'm sure they all wanted to skate great and none of them intentionally skated weak SPs, or were thinking "oh well, if I don't skate a great short that's okay, I can make it up in the FP."

As a former competitor I can only imagine how determined Patrick and Max must have been following their SP's. I know that Patrick and Max BOTH rely on the fact that a "Relatively" clean Free Program will get them on the Podium. We've ALL seen Patrick fall and Win. In some cases, we've seen him fall more than once and still win. There's absolutely no way this will be fair using just the SP scores.

When is an official decision expected?

 

[mrrice]

I had to look it up, but yes, in 2003 there were 2 GPFs, one held for the 02-03 season in Feb-Mar (Sasha won), and the 03-04 in Dec (Fumie won).

Thank you qwerty ( I love that handle by the way ) This situation is bit different but, could something like that be worked out for these skaters?

 

[ice coverage]

Okay, so let's work with the first tiebreaker, then.

Do you think a WR-setting FS/FD should lose to a SP from TEB? Because it could happen...

FYI, sabinfire:

At the Saturday announcement of the cancellation of TEB, the ISU's Peter Krick said (I'm paraphrasing) that his proposal to the ISU Council would be to use the SP/SD results -- with the understanding that the tiebreaker structure would have to be changed.

(He did not specify a proposal for how the tiebreaker structure would be changed.)

 

[qwerty]

Okay, so let's work with the first tiebreaker, then.

Do you think a WR-setting FS/FD should lose to a SP from TEB? Because it could happen...

In this instance, could the score tie-breaker be shifted to second best scores? (the TEB competitor's completed GP total score?)

 

[Serious Business]

Short of going back in time and restaging TEB, there's no absolutely "fair" way of doing this. But it is what it is. We might get to see some skaters we otherwise wouldn't have! Glass half full, people!

Also, I'm idly wondering what the ISU would've done if a grand prix event was canceled before any competing took place. How do they determine GPF entrants then?

 

[qwerty]

Thank you qwerty ( I love that handle by the way ) This situation is bit different but, could something like that be worked out for these skaters?

Thanks! I don't think this particular scheduling would be relevant here. From what I can tell the 02/03 GPF was just held a couple months later than it is these days for some reason. Although they both took place in the same calendar year, the GPFs represented different skating seasons.

 

[blancanieves]

Who would be invited to the exhibition? Based on which criteria? Who would cover the costs? Would be mandatory or not? What gain would the skaters have?
Not to mention that not all fans would be okay to see an exhibition instead of a competition (nor, I think, all media and sponsors).

It's a given that any solution will be a compromise, and someone somewhere is going to lose something. Whichever method the ISU ends up using to determine GPF qualifiers, the suggestion had to do with proceeding with the GPF in its usual format, but stripping the Senior Division of its usual rewards (placements/prize money/WS points). Those who missed out on qualifying because of the TEB cancellation would have less to lose, fans would still see the top skaters/programs they paid to see, money would be redirected to a good cause. It is a stretch. And, you bring up a key point, why would skaters participate at all under this premise?

 

[sabinfire]

FYI, sabinfire:

At the Saturday announcement of the cancellation of TEB, the ISU's Peter Krick said (I'm paraphrasing) that his proposal to the ISU Council would be to use the SP/SD results -- with the understanding that the tiebreaker structure would have to be changed.

(He did not specify a proposal for how the tiebreaker structure would be changed.)

Obviously we don't know details, but that kinda scares me -- 'changing tiebreaker structure'?

I assume that doesn't just apply to TEB skaters, but to tiebreaker scenarios across all skaters and all events?

Seems everything we thought was true about GPF qualifications might be getting a little shake-up.

 

[ice coverage]

Obviously we don't know details, but that kinda scares me -- 'changing tiebreaker structure'?

I assume that doesn't just apply to TEB skaters, but to tiebreaker scenarios across all skaters and all events?

Seems everything we thought was true about GPF qualifications might be getting a little shake-up.

Again, I was paraphrasing -- don't remember the exact quote. The word "structure" is mine, not his, IIRC.

If you want to hear Krick's exact words, pls watch The Blade Boys video.

The take-home message (IMO) was that Krick recognizes that using the TEB SP/SD results (if his proposal is accepted) could make the existing tiebreaker structure seem unfair and/or simply unworkable (given that FS scores are integral to several of the tiebreakers). The same point that you are raising, I believe?

And again, he did not specify his proposal for tiebreaking.

 

[karne]

yup… i am not sure why people disagree with this… because max and liza will most likely be out? or even chan? who cares…they could have skated better.

And Hanyu should have skated better in the SP at Skate Canada. And so should Liza. And Shoma and Jason should have skated better in the SP at Skate America.

The difference? All those mentioned had the chance to redeem their SPs in the free skate - a chance that Max, Liza, Patrick et al were not allowed to have!

Patrick, Liza, Max (and others who didn't have great SPs here) had an EQUAL opportunity to go out and skate great short programs, as much as everyone else. They didn't.

But they do not have an EQUAL chance. They were robbed of their free skate, and the chance to improve, which was something skaters at EVERY OTHER GP had or will have.

 

[4everchan]

And Hanyu should have skated better in the SP at Skate Canada. And so should Liza. And Shoma and Jason should have skated better in the SP at Skate America.

The difference? All those mentioned had the chance to redeem their SPs in the free skate - a chance that Max, Liza, Patrick et al were not allowed to have!



But they do not have an EQUAL chance. They were robbed of their free skate, and the chance to improve, which was something skaters at EVERY OTHER GP had or will have.

you don't know that for sure… nobody does… that's why we say that everyone had a chance with their SP… if the whole event have been cancelled before anyone had skated, then I would agree with you..