A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[el henry]

There is *nothing* about using the SP scores in a program meant for an SP and an LP that makes skaters equal. Say it is the best of a bad lot, and I might understand, but not agree, but equal?:scratch3: it is using less than half the score as a full score...

But hey, the Eagles were leading 16-3 in the first quarter of the game today. Ended up stinking out the joint, as usual, and losing 20-19. But the first quarter was played by the same players, on the same teams, on the same field, so I guess it was equal.

 

[mrrice]

There is *nothing* about using the SP scores in a program meant for an SP and an LP that makes skaters equal. Say it is the best of a bad lot, and I might understand, but not agree, but equal?:scratch3: it is using less than half the score as a full score...

But hey, the Eagles were leading 16-3 in the first quarter of the game today. Ended up stinking out the joint, as usual, and losing 20-19. But the first quarter was played by the same players, on the same teams, on the same field, so I guess it was equal.

Good Point! Especially when it comes to Patrick and Max. It certainly wouldn't be a shock for BOTH of them to land more than 1 quad in the LP and wind up placing 1 and 2 at the end of the event.

 

[Mathman]

But they do not have an EQUAL chance. They were robbed of their free skate, and the chance to improve, which was something skaters at EVERY OTHER GP had or will have.

The circumstances were unique, to say the least. It is not possible to treat the skaters in TEB exactly the same as skaters whose events were not interrupted by tragedy.

The best the ISU can do is treat every skater in TEB the same as every other skater in TEB, giving each skater in the competition an equal chance to achieve a placement that will get him/her into the final. Taking the SP score as the final placement does this.

 

[Mathman]

There is *nothing* about using the SP scores in a program meant for an SP and an LP that makes skaters equal.

I think it does make them equal. Patrick, Max, and Shoma all had an equal chance to skate well in the short program. No one of the three was disadvantaged compared to the other two.

But hey, the Eagles were leading 16-3 in the first quarter of the game today. Ended up stinking out the joint, as usual, and losing 20-19. But the first quarter was played by the same players, on the same teams, on the same field, so I guess it was equal.

It seems equal to me. If circumstances force cancelation after the first quarter, the game is canceled equally for both teams.

Not an ideal solution, but both teams are treated the same, so how is it unfair?

I look at it this way. It is unfair for the skater who blows the SP not to have a chance to contest the LP. However, each competitor holds in his own hands whether he will be that skater or not, equally with every other skater.

 

[karne]

It's a tough break for the few who lost their shot at the GPF, but in the grand scheme of things, or even just the season as a whole, the GPF '15 won't be the pinnacle of skatedom.

Perhaps for Liza and Patrick, it won't end up mattering so much. But the GP results and GPF is on the selection criteria the USFS uses for Worlds selection, and as far as I'm concerned, using the SP results at TEB would mean Max would have to win Nationals in order for me to see him in Boston, because I absolutely do not trust the USFS as far as I could throw them not to hold failing to qualify for the GPF against him.

EDIT: Something else that hasn't really been discussed in the unfairness of using the SP results is the effect of inflation. Both Chan and Ten received inflated scores - and Max was screwed to the wall with his, which was shockingly low.

 

[Pamigena]

Can we agree on the fact that all TEB skaters are equally screwed? :sarcasm: they all drew the karmic short straw, that can't be helped now. Unless anyone here has a time machine, we'll have to work with what we got.

 

[StitchMonkey]

If a skater completes a SP and earns a PB, but has to withdraw from the competition before completing the free, does the personal best still count? Is there any rule in place that the skater must complete the competition for it to count?

If we could figure this out it might give us some insight in to the views of the powers that be. Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER were listed as "WD" as opposed to showing their short score. Their short placement is shown, but not the score.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpchn2015/CAT004RS.HTM

So i am wondering if there is a "must finish the competition" in place. If that is the case, then it is harder to justify accepting the SP scores in my eyes as final. If on the other hand it does still count, then i am slightly more ok with using the SP scores as there would be some precedent for the SP scores being used without the free.

So I guess I am also asking if Shoma's SP will count as his personal best.

 

[Mathman]

So I guess I am also asking if Shoma's SP will count as his personal best.

I don't know how the rules go, but put it up on You Tube and it will live forever. :yes:

 

[ice coverage]

I think it does make them equal. Patrick, Max, and Shoma all had an equal chance to skate well in the short program. No one of the three was disadvantaged compared to the other two. ....

But what inherently would not be right (IMO) -- if the proposal is accepted -- is that Shoma would be given 15 ranking points for just an SP, whereas winning the SP at Skate America was not sufficient for Max to earn his 15 points. Same for Javi at Cup of China.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

I think it does make them equal. Patrick, Max, and Shoma all had an equal chance to skate well in the short program. No one of the three was disadvantaged compared to the other two.



t seems equal to me. If circumstances force cancelation after the first quarter, the game is canceled equally for both teams.

Not an ideal solution, but both teams are treated the same, so how is it unfair?

I like your ideas and reasoning. Very balanced.

There's no actual fair way to decide points going into the GPF for those at Bompard and those not at Bomprad. That's life.

If there's a make-up LP later on, the Bompard skaters have weeks to improve.

That's something the other GP circuit skaters will not have enjoyed.

At a make up event, there's an equal chance that Max Aaron, for example, could give a career-defining performance as there is that he could give the worst performance of his career.

And if there's a make up event, it's not comparable to the other events, because the other events will have had a SP followed by a LP, not a LP only. A skater would be much more tired at the other events compared to Bompard.

The SP results are truly everybody on an equal footing. They had an equal chance to deliver. Those who did should be rewarded, and those who did not, well, they had their chance.

I don't think skaters as talented as Liza and Max should be penalized. So I'm not completely on board with using SP only, even though it seems like a fairer way (but not fair) to decide.

Another option would be to expand the field at the GPF for SP only. Extend the competition a few days - SP Batch 1 and SP Batch 2. Instead of six entrants at the GPF, let there be 10 or 12 or whatever, based on placements.

But let only the top six in each discipline advance to the LP.

Many of you have brought up the issue of cost and logistics of holding a makeup event. Hopefully Barcelona's schedule will accomodate extra days, because it would seem that extending the event might not be so extravagant in terms of cost for the skaters and for the ISU.

This would not be fair for the skaters who did well in GP events and not assigned at Bompard, but it would give those at Bompard and those not at Bompard an equal chance. The ISU may be able to recoup costs by having tickets for the new SP entries.

And this time, due to the circumstances, many should be given a chance, but there would only be one chance. You either deliver or you don't.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm sure they all wanted to skate great and none of them intentionally skated weak SPs, or were thinking "oh well, if I don't skate a great short that's okay, I can make it up in the FP."

A skater thinking they will have an opportunity to skate a LP is a reasonable expectation, isn't it?

 

[shyne]

Perhaps for Liza and Patrick, it won't end up mattering so much. But the GP results and GPF is on the selection criteria the USFS uses for Worlds selection, and as far as I'm concerned, using the SP results at TEB would mean Max would have to win Nationals in order for me to see him in Boston, because I absolutely do not trust the USFS as far as I could throw them not to hold failing to qualify for the GPF against him.

EDIT: Something else that hasn't really been discussed in the unfairness of using the SP results is the effect of inflation. Both Chan and Ten received inflated scores - and Max was screwed to the wall with his, which was shockingly low.

Enough with the inflated score. The only inflated score is Max's PCS at SA.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The best the ISU can do is treat every skater in TEB the same as every other skater in TEB, giving each skater in the competition an equal chance to achieve a placement that will get him/her into the final. Taking the SP score as the final placement does this.

This is fine for awarding medals relative to other competitors at TEB. However, skaters are not given an "equal chance to achieve a placement that will get him/her into the final" relative to non-TEB participants. The others have an opportunity to earn ~2/3 of their placement in the LP.

 

[Layback11]

Perhaps for Liza and Patrick, it won't end up mattering so much. But the GP results and GPF is on the selection criteria the USFS uses for Worlds selection, and as far as I'm concerned, using the SP results at TEB would mean Max would have to win Nationals in order for me to see him in Boston, because I absolutely do not trust the USFS as far as I could throw them not to hold failing to qualify for the GPF against him.

EDIT: Something else that hasn't really been discussed in the unfairness of using the SP results is the effect of inflation. Both Chan and Ten received inflated scores - and Max was screwed to the wall with his, which was shockingly low.

They didn't hold being first alternate for the Final last year against Jason...I think he'll be fine if he wins a medal at Nationals. (I'm saying this as a fan-I think if he earns a spot, he'll get the spot.)

 

[karne]

They didn't hold being first alternate for the Final last year against Jason...I think he'll be fine if he wins a medal at Nationals. (I'm saying this as a fan-I think if he earns a spot, he'll get the spot.)

But the USFS likes Jason. Between Jason, if Joshua was to be back for Nationals, and their new golden boy Chen...no, I don't trust that Max will be on that Worlds team with anything less than being National Champion again...

 

[andromache]

But the USFS likes Jason. Between Jason, if Joshua was to be back for Nationals, and their new golden boy Chen...no, I don't trust that Max will be on that Worlds team with anything less than being National Champion again...

Your interpretation of USFS politics has nothing to do with finding the fairest way to determine GP points at TEB, though it's clear you are most worried for how the LP cancellation will impact Max. Do you have any suggestions as to how the ISU should handle the situation if holding an LP at a later time is not feasible?

 

[silverlake22]

But the USFS likes Jason. Between Jason, if Joshua was to be back for Nationals, and their new golden boy Chen...no, I don't trust that Max will be on that Worlds team with anything less than being National Champion again...

I fully expect Max will be on the World team if he places in the TOP THREE at Nationals, the top three went to Worlds last season, and this isn't an Olympic year so I don't see any exceptions being made, except for maybe Chen who might just go to JW anyways even if he's in the top 3. Abbott probably won't be back, if he is it will be his first competition of the season and he's Abbott - I don't expect much, Josh is coming back from a concussion, so if he even competes, I would be surprised if he's in top form after all that time off, Chen might not get considered for Worlds anyways, and Dornbush and Rippon aren't any more consistent than Max (Ricky is def way more inconsistent than Max though I do love him so) and won't make the GPF either. Jason might be out of GPF as well. So really, I don't think Max missing the GPF would hurt his chances for Worlds at all. He still won Skate America, after all. Plus, he could feasibly make it to Worlds if he placed 4th at Nationals again if Chen is in the top 3 and doesn't get sent.

I understand the situation is frustrating, but I wouldn't be all doom and gloom about Max's chances yet.

 

[karne]

Your interpretation of USFS politics has nothing to do with finding the fairest way to determine GP points at TEB, though it's clear you are most worried for how the LP cancellation will impact Max. Do you have any suggestions as to how the ISU should handle the situation if holding an LP at a later time is not feasible?

Honestly, I don't know. Holding the LP at a later time is the option that I would prefer. Without it, perhaps an option for any medallist who was adversely affected by the FS being cancelled to be included in the GPF also. For the men it would probably only be two anyway - Max and Murakami, since the manipulation required for Chan to not make it with a first and fifth is considerably unlikely and Kovtun still has his assignment at CoR which he will certainly do well at.

Now, this does not only effect those with two GPs looking at the final - what about a skater like Brooklee, for whom this was her only assignment, but for whom the ranking points and SB opportunities are absolutely vital?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't find using the SP scores to be unfair. In fact it seems the most fair because to me it puts all the skaters on equal footing and everyone did have an equal chance. Sure a case could be made for the importance of a the FS but it's not like the rink had ice issues, or a storm swept the city. The nation suffered a major attack and the government declared the day to be one of remembrance and asked that the sporting event be cancelled. It's unfortunate...unusual....unorthodox...and unfamiliar but I don't find it unfair. Everyone was given the same opportunity so it's just not unfair IMO.

Unusual circumstances need extra consideration sometimes.

 

[peg]

This is fine for awarding medals relative to other competitors at TEB. However, skaters are not given an "equal chance to achieve a placement that will get him/her into the final" relative to non-TEB participants. The others have an opportunity to earn ~2/3 of their placement in the LP.

Or even relative to other TEB competitors.

Some people tend to have a stronger SP, while others have a stronger FS. Skaters who lack stamina, for example, often do better in the SP but run out of steam in the FS, and using only SP scores favors them.

Many people are acting as though the SP and the FS are completely equivalent components, but in fact they are not. The rules ad strategies involved are different, and play to different skaters' strengths and weaknesses. And sometime skaters take a risk in the SP banking on the fact that if it doesn't pay off in the SP, they can still make up or it in the FS. For example, Liza continues to put her 3A in her SP even though she has been struggling with it this season, knowing that in the FS she can make up some of those lost points. Had she know the SP would be the deciding factor, she might have opted for an easier but safer jump. While some people are saying that all the skaters are equal in that they did not know the SP would be so decisive, they are not in fact equal because many others would not have been faced with that decision.

And that's why I think they should use the SP as a starting point, but then have two additional spots for the two next-ranked TEB skaters to compensate or the fact that using just the SP is flawed.