A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[ice coverage]

Thank you so much for answering my question. Here's my next question.......Why on earth would Max do this competition if it weren't to help him make the GPF?

A small fringe benefit of Tallinn for Max A is that he was able to support his sister Maddie and Max S at their season debut there.

Not saying that it was an outright reason for Max A to compete in Tallinn.

Just a nice little bonus, I'd say ... on top of all the other reasons.

(AFAIK, the Aaron parents usually travel to all of the comps of their kids. I wonder whether Dr. and Mrs. Aaron did not go to Tallinn ... both times that Max was in the Kiss and Cry, it was possible to read his lips as he waved at the camera and said hello to Mom and Dad, Molly [older sister of Max and Maddie], etc.)

 

[mrrice]

A small fringe benefit of Tallinn for Max A is that he was able to support his sister Maddie and Max S at their season debut there.

Not saying that it was an outright reason for Max A to compete in Tallinn.

Just a nice little bonus, I'd say ... on top of all the other reasons.

(AFAIK, the Aaron parents usually travel to all of the comps of their kids. I wonder whether they did not go to Tallinn ... both times that Max was in the Kiss and Cry, it was possible to read his lips as he waved at the camera and said hello to Mom and Dad, Molly, etc.)

That's a great reason for Max to be there. It's a Family Affair! I can only imagine the frequent flier miles they must have. :agree:

 

[mrrice]

Because he wants more competition experience in preparation for Nationals and to gain more world ranking points.

It's like Elizaveta going to a million competitions last year.

Now I get it. It certainly worked for Liza so, why not. :agree:

 

[sowcow]

I hope they come to a decision soon, for the sake of the athletes. Can you imagine having to go skate at CoC this weekend when you have no idea what your results from last weekend mean? When you don't know what your chances are for making the final or what you need to do at this competition to qualify since you don't know what your TEB result is?

[I assume you meant CoR and not CoC?]

Yes. This. All of it. I just want to get this over with. The poor skaters must be worried sick. :hopelessness:

I respectfully disagree that the unresolved TEB issue is having any meaningful negative effect on skaters heading into the CoR. To be honest, the skaters are all there to do their best and place as high as they can.

Of course, in the back of a skaters/coaches mind, knowing where you fall in the current GPF ranking 'MIGHT' create a secondary/"back-of-mind" goal of achieving a certain placing or better. For example, knowing what points the TEB skaters will ultimately receive could allow for a slightly more exact calculation whereby a skater at CoR presumes that in order to make it to the GPF they must 'finish 3rd or above'. Fine. But, these sorts of secondary/"back-of-mind" goals do NOT affect the skaters primary goal: to do their best and place as high as they can. Period.

For those that argue that a skater/coach may change an element in the program to ensure a better placement, (such as changing an inconsistent quad attempt to a triple), these sorts of decisions have more to do with that specific competition than the overall GPF rankings. For example, if you're the last to skate the SP, and everyone else has fallen on their combination jumps (or simply that NO ONE has skated cleanly), then a skater/coach 'MAY' decide to simplify an element to ensure a clean performance. But, this is a tactical decision based on the competition at hand (and trying to achieve the highest placement overall at that competition), and NOT part of a strategic plan related to the GPF rankings.


Therefore, I do not think the unresolved TEB issue is having any meaningful negative effect on skaters heading into the CoR.
On the other hand, I do think it is having a major effect on GoldenSkate members! :hpull:

 

[tulosai]

At this point it's 9 pm in Europe where the 'meeting' is taking place. I am calling it now that we aren't going to get any news today either beyond what we've already been able to piece together. At this point I think it's fair to say for sure that:

1. The SP from TEB is what is being used for ranking points on the World Standings list.
2. Despite this, enough of the people at this meeting are against using the SP for qualification to the GPF (either totally, or else wanting to use it but wanting to use some other metric too) that they are still debating this.

At this point I think it's fair to guess that they are either (sadly IMO in order of likelihood):

1. Deliberately trying to put off the decision till after Rostelecom so that they will have more information about who is 'qualified' under the basic system in making this decision -or-
2. So divided that coming to any kind of agreement is nearly unthinkable and therefore the ultimate solution we're going to get is going to be totally and utterly insane -or-
3. There is basic agreement but monetary issues are being fought over tooth and nail.

Finally, regarding the idea that the ISU doesn't plan to make a formal announcement and basically has made a decision and hopes we'll all go away- this is just not realistic or possible in today's day and age. In the unlikely event that this is what they are doing, it is going to fail spectacularly because there are still countries in this world with a robust media presence who are interested in skating, and they are going to figure out what has been decided. In this social media era it is just not possible to withhold a decision like this from the public and have us all find out for the first time when the GPF airs on TV and our commentators let us know what happened. If they are trying to basically hide and hope this goes away, that is stupid, because again, in this social media era, the MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do when announcing something like this is announce it first and frame the discussion. I don't believe the ISU is so antiquated that it doesn't realize that. The ISU will announce this, and will announce it in such a way as that they try to frame the discussion as positively as possible, trust me.

 

[mrrice]

So, if I'm correct, are Max and Patrick done for the GP season if they take the SP results as the final score??

 

[Icey]

There are things that are unfair about the series from the get-go. A skater who is only assigned one event already has his/her chances of making the final diminished significantly. I would level the playing field in that aspect and require all skaters be assigned to two events. Remember the days when a skater could actually be in three events, but only two results were counted for final consideration. The solution to this present situation, while maybe expensive and unweidley, is easy. TEB goes by the wayside and counts in no way for the final, but in fairness, each of the skaters there is given the opportunity to participate (from scratch) in one of the remaining scheduled events or a bare bones competition yet to be organized. I think I'll go into hibernation until this is over

 

[tulosai]

So, if I'm correct, are Max and Patrick done for the GP season if they take the SP results as the final score??

Max will be done. Patrick still has a chance to get into the finals but it depends VERY MUCH how others do.

 

[Icey]

So, if I'm correct, are Max and Patrick done for the GP season if they take the SP results as the final score??

Max was skating at a competition yesterday. Yeah, I know all the arguments against this, but why couldn't they let his lp score at that event be used along with his sp TEB score for final consideration. :eeking: I said I know all the arguments against this, so please spare me and every:noshakene

 

[Lys]

So, if I'm correct, are Max and Patrick done for the GP season if they take the SP results as the final score??

I'm not sure why people keep saying Patrick won't be at GPF, but if they consider sp results as final score, he's pretty much IN.
Only way for him to be at risk of being out is if Adam Rippon wins COR or if Nam wins and they count as second tiebreak the sums of total scores still. Otherwise he'd be at worst third after COR (Fernandez and Uno above him) and there's no way Yuzuru, Boyang, Kovtun AND Brown can all overtake him.
Aaron would be, instead, out since he'd be BEFORE COR in 5th place already.

 

[sowcow]

Max will be done. Patrick still has a chance to get into the finals but it depends VERY MUCH how others do.

Actually, it depends ENTIRELY how others do! :2thumbs:

 

[mrrice]

I'm not sure why people keep saying Patrick won't be at GPF, but if they consider sp results as final score, he's pretty much IN.
Only way for him to be at risk of being out is if Adam Rippon wins COR or if Nam wins and they count as second tiebreak the sums of total scores still. Otherwise he'd be at worst third after COR (Fernandez and Uno above him) and there's no way Yuzuru, Boyang, Kovtun AND Brown can all overtake him.
Aaron would be, instead, out since he'd be BEFORE COR in 5th place already.

At this point, I'm disgusted with the ISU for not announcing a decision.

 

[Lys]

At this point, I'm disgusted with the ISU for not announcing a decision.

Only at this point?

My feeling is they are waiting to see how COR goes (and maybe NHK too), so to find the best* solution.


*Also known as: now that we know how many points skaters need to qualify, let's find a way to have at the finals the skaters we want

 

[mrrice]

Only at this point?

My feeling is they are waiting to see how COR goes (and maybe NHK too), so to see the best* solution.


*Also known as: now that we know how many points skaters need to qualify, let's find a way to have at the finals the skaters we want

That was a Fantastic Comment and completely true!!!!!!!!!!:2thumbs:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Max will be done. Patrick still has a chance to get into the finals but it depends VERY MUCH how others do.

Agreed. It might come down to tiebreakers and Patrick should be fine, given that skaters aren't skating consistently.

There have been 9 different medalists on the GP circuit. Aaron, Uno, Brown, Chan, Hanyu, Murakami, Fernandez, Jin, Yan, Kovtun (technically not, but let's say the ISU considers him the silver medalist at TEB and gives him 13 points.

Chan has already beaten out Yan on points (with Yan coming 4th), Aaron on GP points (with Aaron coming 7th at TEB), and beaten Murakami in a tiebreaker situation. That essentially leaves 6 medalists, including Chan who are potential GPF entries. Uno is in... most likely, Fernandez/Hanyu are in.

If we want to factor in non-GP medalists on the bubble like Nguyen/Rippon/Voronov, Javier will likely prevent one if not all of those skaters from winning at Rostelecom, which would prevent them from surpassing Patrick in terms of GP points (Javier will likely beat Rippon, and even if Nguyen or Voronov won over Javier, Chan would likely beat those two out on a tiebreaker). Same goes for NHK where Hanyu will likely prevent one of Kovtun/Jin/Brown from making the podium.

Thus, you'd have to imagine that one more of the GP medalists will be knocked out of the GP final due to the presence of Fernandez and Hanyu. So that makes for 5 GP medalists left, including Chan.

If my calculations are correct, Patrick is really only in trouble if Rippon wins Rostelecom (very unlikely against Fernandez) AND Kovtun/Jin both place 2nd or higher at NHK (very unlikely against Hanyu)... which is an almost impossible scenario. The worst case scenario I could picture is Jin and Kovtun winning silver/bronze at NHK behind Hanyu, which would give them more GPF points than Patrick, but that still leaves Patrick as the likely 6th spot (if you factor in tiebreakers and the like).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

TEB goes by the wayside and counts in no way for the final, but in fairness, each of the skaters there is given the opportunity to participate (from scratch) in one of the remaining scheduled events or a bare bones competition yet to be organized. I think I'll go into hibernation until this is over

The problem with assigning them to another GP is that the field would be far too stacked at NHK. Gracie, Liza, Ashley, Mao, Satoko, and Anna account for almost every woman who has skated well this season.

 

[Violet Bliss]

My post at TEB Is Cancelled thread explains evidence ISU is using TEB SP placements as final. They are likely still debating on other issues such as additional GPF qualifiers.

 

[ice coverage]

My post at TEB Is Cancelled thread explains evidence ISU is using TEB SP placements as final. They are likely still debating on other issues such as additional GPF qualifiers.

But ... it also is significant that the ISU has held off from updating skater bios with TEB placements -- as discussed both in this thread and the other one. (The bio of Rodighiero, a Rostelecom entry, is an exception.)

So I do not feel sure at all that the ISU has made a decision to use TEB SP placements as final.

Usually the ISU bios are updated within hours of the conclusion of a GP. It does not take long at all to get the updating done.

In the case of TEB, the ISU clearly has made a choice not to go forward with all the updating yet.

 

[altuixde]

Here's another option to consider. It involves reassessing the points given to skaters who did not compete at TEB as well. Please forgive me if this has already been suggested; I haven't read all 50+ pages of this thread.

All skaters could be given points for the short programs and free skates they've done (or will do) in the Grand Prix this season and the skaters with the most points get to compete in or be alternates for the Grand Prix Final. For a first place in a short program, a skater would get 15 points; for a second place in a short program, a skater would get 13 points and so on. For a first place in a free skate, a skater would get 30 points, for a second place in a free skate, a skater would get 26 points and so on—the free skates are worth double the short programs. No points would be awarded for a skater's non scoring event (if there are any skaters competing in three Grand Prix events).

For skaters who competed at TEB (as a scoring event), their total points would be multiplied by 6/4.

 

[Mathman]

(W)hy couldn't they let his lp score at that event be used along with his sp TEB score for final consideration(?)

...I know all the arguments against this, so please spare me and everyone [an answer.]

Something about this post tickles me. :yes: