Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[shyne]

Uno's jumps still scare me. His technique among the top 5 skaters is probably the weakest but he seems to be landing them for the most part but i would like to see better technique on the 3axel especially.

Uno pre-rotates most of his jumps. It's fine now but I heard rumors that ISU's discussing the possibility to penalize pre-rotated jumps.

 

[jace93]

Uno's jumps still scare me. His technique among the top 5 skaters is probably the weakest but he seems to be landing them for the most part but i would like to see better technique on the 3axel especially.

yeah Uno jumps are very bizarre... He has amazing flow in and out of them and very good knee bend, but when he jumps the majority of the force he generates is parallel to the ice, so he has good distance but with relatively little elevation (with a tilted axis just more often then not). It's nearly as if he had explosive behind his heels IMO his jumps have good quality, but I'm never able to watch him jumping as relaxed as when Yuzu or Chan jump: while with the two of them it's easy to see if they'll be able to land their jump well as soon as they leave the ice, with Shoma you can't be certain until he has landed it

 

[wookchub]

It is?

He not only has to catch up with tech that's in place now for many of the top men: two quads in the FS and two 3A; but he has to consider the added tech difficulty being planned by Hanyu and others: 4lo, different quads.

Look at Chan's 2013 TEB performances (the last time he put together a clean SP + clean FS) for which he received a total 295.27.

SP: 98.52 4t, 3a, 3z+3t
FS: 196.75 4t+3t, 4t, 3a, 3z+1lo+3s, 3z, 3lo, 3f+2t, 2a

To be competitive with Hanyu he would need TWO quads in his SP to add an additional 10 points. He would need to learn 4s.

In the FS he would need to add 4s and a second 3a in combination. Even this might not be enough to overtake Hanyu if Hanyu adds 4lo to his current repertoire.

It's a lot of assumptions based on current ability. Two years is a long time. In one off season Yuzuru turned his 4S from a planned fall to a very consistent +3 worthy jump. Granted that is Yuzuru and I do believe he's part alien. But given two years it's not out of the question for Patrick to add a 4S and another 3A. Like I say, he needs to get his head down and work very hard, because lord knows Yuzuru already is.

 

[chuckm]

2 years is enough to learn another quad, isn't it?

The Olympics start approximately two years and 6 weeks from now. But we still have to finish the current season, and that won't end until early April, 4 months from now. Next season is already the pre-Olympic season, when seeding for the Olympics will be decided at years' end.

Time is short.

 

[qwertyskates]

I would definitely include hydroblading and cantilevers as part of mastery of the blade. These in particular show some of the greatest mastery because of where your weight is balanced and controlling the edge in spite of literally bending over backward or having your body leaned over so close to the ice. And it's particularly difficult to keep the flow/edge going when you rise up out of it.

I get that it can seem gimmicky, but I think it's a wonderful highlight. Hanyu's hydroblading is particularly lovely (although Brown did it first, lol... and Shae/Vic before that).

Absolutely not...hydroblading is a move for speed skaters to negotiate turns and corners, it's for RESTING and keeping one's balance while speeding, SS is based on challenging one's balance and strength, they are complete opposite in their function. Hydroblading is visually fun, that is all.

This is what annoys me, a lot of fun, crowd pleasing moves are mistaken as SS moves and fans expect these to be hallmarks of great skating skills! And then they booboo Patrick's *true* SS moves...:noshake:

However, Patrick needs to face this new reality that audience's approval will influence judges, and why not these "resting" moves that help him to take a breather the better to deliver his TES?

 

[Ophelia]

Who is Patrick going to learn the 4S from? Kathy Johnson?

 

[qwertyskates]

Who is Patrick going to learn the 4S from? Kathy Johnson?

I expect you would approve since you put Patrick's SS below that of an ice dancer's...:think:

 

[4everchan]

i agree with you... but i am just saying that who knows... Patrick wants to be at the game.... maybe that still is a very viable option for him, even if people write him off for singles... he could also shine in the team... that's all i am saying.

I would certainly hope that Patrick thinks more of himself than to aim for a team medal simply because Yuzuru is not likely to win one. Considering Yuzuru's contribution to Team Japan's effort was superior to Patrick's for Canada, I'm not sure the glory lies there. Patrick should work hard and aim to win a gold for himself in 2018. That's a very reasonable goal for him.

 

[Ophelia]

I never put Patrick's SS below that of an ice dancer. You simply misinterpreted my post.

 

[qwertyskates]

By the way people continuously go on and on and on and on and on about Chan's edges and SS, you'd think they were talking about the qualifications for the greatest male ice dancer ever.

You mean this post?:think:

 

[qwertyskates]

In terms of difficulty in TES layout, yes, Hanyu's are more difficult, but all the skating in between the elements, Patrick's programs are much more difficult than Hanyu's.

 

[Ophelia]

You mean this post?:think:

Yes...where in there do I say his SS is below that of an ice dancer?

 

[HanDomi]

In terms of difficulty in TES layout, yes, Hanyu's are more difficult, but all the skating in between the elements, Patrick's programs are much more difficult than Hanyu's.

Chan doesn't have transitions to his jumps in his programs right now, so this is not actually true, the first part between 3 jumping passes is completely empty

 

[qwertyskates]

Yes...where in there do I say his SS is below that of an ice dancer?

You implied the talk about Patrick's SS is akin to being assessed for qualification as best ice dancer...:disapp:

 

[vlaurend]

Absolutely not...hydroblading is a move for speed skaters to negotiate turns and corners, it's for RESTING and keeping one's balance while speeding, SS is based on challenging one's balance and strength, they are complete opposite in their function. Hydroblading is visually fun, that is all.

Then would you please post a video of you demonstrating a hydroblade on figure skates to demonstrate how easy it is? It requires not only strength and balance, but flexibility as well. There's a reason you don't see a lot of skaters doing them, and even fewer skaters doing them well. And don't even get me started on cantilevers! Those are twice as hard! Having said all of that, these difficult moves would be rewarded more under the "Transitions" and "Choreography" marks than the "Skating Skills" mark.

 

[qwertyskates]

Chan doesn't have transitions to his jumps in his programs right now, so this is not actually true, the first part between 3 jumping passes is completely empty

Just bcause he didn't place transitions before or after some of his jumps doesn't mean he doesn't have them, again, another fan myth.

 

[qwertyskates]

Then would you please post a video of you demonstrating a hydroblade on figure skates to demonstrate how easy it is? It requires not only strength and balance, but flexibility as well. There's a reason you don't see a lot of skaters doing them, and even fewer skaters doing them well. And don't even get me started on cantilevers! Those are twice as hard! Having said all of that, these difficult moves would be rewarded more under the "Transitions" and "Choreography" marks than the "Skating Skills" mark.

Perhaps skaters CHOOSE not to do them?:sarcasm:

If hydroblading is such a novelty for you look here, it's easy to google them yourself, geez, don't need to wait for me to take the trouble to set up a video shoot, really...or for a hydrobladatron to figure out its "magic"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO325bt6tLI

Here, back cross overs...lean....wow...look at that flexibility!

Front ? Every speed skater does it.

But I bet nonflexible Patrick will never learn this "difficult" move in a million years, with his ice dancer SS, as he fumes with envy at those who can....

The hardest thing to do on the ice is MOVEMENT that constantly challenges one's mastery of the blades, displacement of body weight, changes in momentum, in directions, demanding use of every muscle, moves that make a weaker skater fall over, not gliding, not balancing, not two footed skating.

 

[4everchan]

it's not because we haven't seen a jump in competition that a skater doesn't work on it.... a million years ago, Chouinard was said to be able to land 3A in practice.... Apparently,, Yuzu has 4Lo in practice and even in ex.... Murakami apparently is working on the 4F.... so who knows what Patrick has up his sleeves ??? have you been watching him practice for the last 4-5 years.... If I recall correctly, he had mentioned working on the 4S before.... so he might be closer than you think to be able to land it regularly.... I like his lutz and flip much better than his salchow... who knows if he doesn't just come back with a killer 4F or 4Lz....

I think that considering and i will use your words in another post... 2015's splatfest, including from Yuzu... and now everyone skating so well... we may indeed go through a phase where people acquire these new jumps and fall a lot next year,to get back on track with cleaner programs for the games....

And regarding Kathy Johnson, why is it that everyone thinks she is Patrick's only mentor? He has choreographers, a main coach, a physio, why do you think that he doesn't have someone who works part-time with him on technique?

Anyways, you seem to know everything about Patrick so I will wait for your next posts to find out more.... because clearly, you have it figured out better than all of us

Who is Patrick going to learn the 4S from? Kathy Johnson?

 

[4everchan]

Chan held this record, will always be in the record books for having achieved it... He could be precise and say, past or former record holder... but it's twitter world and really... it's not necessary. Yuzu is the current record holder. Congrats to him, that doesn't mean that none of the previous record holders haven't achieved the same feat..... maybe in a few years, another skater will surpass Yuzu's scores... and then what? will we have to forget history? Patrick made history, let him have what he has achieved.... there's one thing worse than a sore loser, a bad winner. (and that isn't aimed at Yuzu but at some of his fans)

https://twitter.com/Pchiddy
You better update your twitter profile Patty, I see record holder here, and then try to jump 2 axels, or get a second quad toe again.
The first difference of 1000 that Makes Yuzuru THE REAL CHAMPION is that he blames only himself if something goes wrong, not whole world.

about maxing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnBY...ature=youtu.be
Have you seen quad loop Patrick? triple flip will be fired next season from Yuzu's LP.
Ohhh yes, more likely combo will be moved in second half for Boston. Honestly this thread should be closed . "Hanyu from now is competing with Ghost of himself" -Kurt said not me.

I cheered so much, wanted him to redeem after SP, but he made me REGRET again, Chan, Chan your skating is just too good for your mouth

 

[blueberryhill]

Then would you please post a video of you demonstrating a hydroblade on figure skates to demonstrate how easy it is? It requires not only strength and balance, but flexibility as well. There's a reason you don't see a lot of skaters doing them, and even fewer skaters doing them well. And don't even get me started on cantilevers! Those are twice as hard! Having said all of that, these difficult moves would be rewarded more under the "Transitions" and "Choreography" marks than the "Skating Skills" mark.

I skate recreationally. There's a "middle-aged" woman that skates at the same rink I do. She can't do any jumps, spins and very few moves in the field. Aside from a few figure skating lessons that she undertook AS AN ADULT she is not a figure skater (she instead calls herself a power skater). She can hydroblade achieving the exact same very low positions that I see in competitive programs achieving decent speeds. If she can do it then perhaps it does not require the advance skating skills that is expected at world class levels.