2015-16 State of Russian Ice Dance

[tvuckic16]

I honestly believe if I/Z didn't fall at COR, the tone of this conversation would be considerably different. Their real handicap this year, unfortunate mishaps aside are their unusual programs, because blade to ice, chemistry and artistry, IMHO, they are the best Russian ice dance pair. I absolutely love their choices this year, but it appears that the judges aren't willing to deviate from same old same old, especially for a team that hasn't got it's act together yet. So they have a major choice to make, stick to the rules written and unwritten and win or deviate and pay the price. If you're going to go the route less traveled, you have to be perfectly spot on. I hope they take something like Nikiya's death scene from La Bayadere in the future as Ilinykh more than has the chops for it. Looking forward to nationals.

You could be right, who knows.

I agree that IZ are very good. Personally, I think Lena is the best female dancer in Russia for sure. But, as a team, in general, I think they are overdone dramatically....what can I say, it is a delicate balance between true depth and kitsch. On the other hand, some teams don't have enough drama and are too bland... again, it is an art to strike the right balance.

Over-dramatizing aside, I don't think that the problem, if you can even call it a 'problem', for IZ this year is the judges so much as I don't think they made the best choices in terms of programs. I really like IZ, but I have never made it a secret that I don't like their SD. It is not that the judges want the same old same old, maybe they do, but I think they want to see a modern take to "appropriate" music. As for their FD, it is beautifully choreographed by Najarro and he is a dance artist, a fantastic choreographer, but at times I feel IZ simply get lost in the intricacies of the choreography.

While modern ballet/dance has the liberty of matching choreography to the smallest detail to modern music making it a cohesive unit, ice-dance, not so much. I feel ice-dance is not as flexible to getting lost in the choreography as ballet. There are required steps and elements, a constraint a modern ballet does not have, which simply are discordant with certain types of music or which simply break up the flow.

For the SD, yeah yeah, I know, you will say all that matters is the right beat, as long as they have the correct waltz beat it is ok. But in my opinion, music is more than just a beat, no? Dance, including ice-dance, the way I see it, cannot be truly separated from the music experience.

So, for example, while I didn't seriously dislike WP's Elvis, I am glad they changed it and think the new choice fits the RW much better.

As for the Russian teams, I do think BS are the most steady this year. They are technically very good and as far as their programs go, I think they chose well for themselves. SK on the other hand, have some more work to do, but I must say, they have improved considerably and are certainly not far behind IZ or BS. I do think SK's program choices are better than IZ's this year, but we'll have to see.

Things may still change and shift around as the season continues.

 

[Snow63]

After last year success with 'Carmen' they've made a GIGANTIC step back. I mean, they were scored almost 70s! This SD is a mistake, I was sure of that from the beginning, I just hope they will learn their lesson. Because I really like them.
And I woud not call the team who messed up on one element or another at the last 3 big competitions out of 4 'the best Russian ice dance pair'. Bobrova/Soloviev are at least as good technically as Ilinykh/Zhiganshin, and they are MUCH more consistent (so far). The facts are facts. People must be blind to argue with facts. Looking forward to Nationals.

 

[Abraxis12345]

After watching the GPF, I honestly think none of the Russian couples are anywhere near the ability of the top 4. Bobrova and Soloviev are completely maxed out on talent. Ilinykh and Zhiganshin are struggling yo skate in hold,, Sinitsina and Katsalapov can't skate in hold. And don't get me started on the Tchaikovskaya reject packaging of Loboda and Drozd and Popova and Vlasenko.

 

[Ice Dance]

Loboda & Drozd skate very close together. It is one of the things I love about them among all the junior teams.

Bobrova & Soloviev are doing their job, skating solid passionate routines. They've had a tough climb the entire season, but they are showing their cards--each time getting stronger IMO. I wonder if it might be worth reworking the R&J portion of their SD? (At the moment, it's rather halting and slows down the pace/momentum of the program). They look good for Russian Nationals (the SD has been their strength compared to the other Russian teams); but afterward, pro-actively speaking, it might help B&S to gain points internationally. Even if they aren't in the conversation for top five, there are a couple teams--Hubbell & Donahue and Gilles & Poirier--whom the Russian teams have to take seriously if they are going to fight for three spots for next season.

 

[Marta25]

I was in Barcelona and I really liked B/S, especially in the FD. What surprises me a little are their PCS marks. A lot of people complain about I/Z`s SD and TBH I also want them to change it, but B/S`s PCS in the SD is only 0.5 points above of what I/Z received in China. The PCS for their FD in Barcelona was even lower than what I/Z received in China or S/K in Russia, so I`m not sure who the Russian Fed is pushing right now. Whoever they are going to send, Worlds in Boston is going to be tough. There is no clear #1, they are under the pressure to get that third spot back and the international field is very deep.

 

[tvuckic16]

After watching the GPF, I honestly think none of the Russian couples are anywhere near the ability of the top 4. Bobrova and Soloviev are completely maxed out on talent. Ilinykh and Zhiganshin are struggling yo skate in hold,, Sinitsina and Katsalapov can't skate in hold. And don't get me started on the Tchaikovskaya reject packaging of Loboda and Drozd and Popova and Vlasenko.

I might have to agree with some of this. WP, as much as I hate to admit, since I am not a fan, we're excellent. Shibs, just inspired!!!! Wow! CL excellent theatrical performers, although technically less sound than the other two. CB were actually my least favorite of top 4. But all were very very good. Very tough for Russia. Really I can't say I prefer anything from the Russian teams this year. Last year at least I felt IZ "Carmen" was superb, this year I can't think of a single program from the Russian teams that excites me like that.

 

[Snow63]

I was in Barcelona and I really liked B/S, especially in the FD. What surprises me a little are their PCS marks. A lot of people complain about I/Z`s SD and TBH I also want them to change it, but B/S`s PCS in the SD is only 0.5 points above of what I/Z received in China. The PCS for their FD in Barcelona was even lower than what I/Z received in China or S/K in Russia, so I`m not sure who the Russian Fed is pushing right now. Whoever they are going to send, Worlds in Boston is going to be tough. There is no clear #1, they are under the pressure to get that third spot back and the international field is very deep.

I agree. Their PCS were not very inspiring, just as their GOEs. However, the fact that they had highest BV out of all teams from GPF is very telling. They definitely have the weapons, and I'm absolutely convinced that if they will continue to skate like that they will improve their marks. If not this season then next.

Cappellini/Lanotte - 28.2 + 40.5 = 68.7
Bobrova/Soloviev - 28.2 + 40.5 =68.7
Weaver/Poje - 28.2 + 40.0 = 68.2
Hubbel/Donohue - 28.2 + 39.0 = 67.2
Chock/Bates - 27.6 + 39.5 = 67.1
The Shibs - 27.0 + 39.5 = 66.5


Gennady Karponosov: Russia needs one year for reanimation, and then to work in full force.
http://sochi.nu.stadium.ru/news/14-...vlyayutsya-liderami-v-tantsah-na-ldu-v-rossii

He basically trashed everyone: Weaver/Poje and Chock/Bates were lacking of creativeness, their dances were based on technical elements and preparing for technical elements. Cappellini/Lanotte and the Shibs were lacking quality of technical elements. Bobrova/Soloviev were not better and not worse than other teams, and he actually said that they're NOT the leaders of Russian ice dance, they just got lucky because of the draw (other teams got stronger opponents in their events). I think he already crowned Sinitsina/Katsalapov

 

[TheGothicEme]

Poor Bobrova and Soloviev. One year out and everyone wrote them off completely. I mean they come back and be better than before they left - personal best in fd there, see?
Jut wait 2 more weeks until Russian nationals'll be over, shall we? SinKat are strong, yes, but so are BS and IZ, SB are not far behind either.

 

[Snow63]

Poor Bobrova and Soloviev. One year out and everyone wrote them off completely. I mean they come back and be better than before they left - personal best in fd there, see?
Jut wait 2 more weeks until Russian nationals'll be over, shall we? SinKat are strong, yes, but so are BS and IZ, SB are not far behind either.

Sometimes I think he's stupid, honestly. Sorry, but some of his interviews I guess he's pretty dissapointed, because before the start of the GPF he said they have a real shot for the win (here: http://www.stadium.ru/news/09-12-20...lovev-poboryutsya-za-pobedu-v-finale-gran-pri), but in the same interview he said their SD is 'Carmen'. I mean 'CARMEN', Carl! :whack:
Then, he said himself that Dima started to train normally only in July, what did he expect? Total domination after two missed Wrold Championships? Especially considering they reworked their FD after last season to make it easier on Dima's leg, because he still feels pain. I'm not looking for excuses, you know? They just don't need them. Because even in these circumstances they got higher score than any other Russian team this season. So, Nationals will tell, it would be lovely to see them against Ilinykh/Zhiganshin and Sinitsina/Katsalapov, we saw former two against each other already, now we just need to add Bobrova in the mix and see what will happen.

 

[adelia]

Sometimes I think he's stupid, honestly. Sorry, but some of his interviews I guess he's pretty dissapointed, because before the start of the GPF he said they have a real shot for the win (here: http://www.stadium.ru/news/09-12-20...lovev-poboryutsya-za-pobedu-v-finale-gran-pri), but in the same interview he said their SD is 'Carmen'. I mean 'CARMEN', Carl! :whack:
Then, he said himself that Dima started to train normally only in July, what did he expect? Total domination after two missed Wrold Championships? Especially considering they reworked their FD after last season to make it easier on Dima's leg, because he still feels pain. I'm not looking for excuses, you know? They just don't need them. Because even in these circumstances they got higher score than any other Russian team this season. So, Nationals will tell, it would be lovely to see them against Ilinykh/Zhiganshin and Sinitsina/Katsalapov, we saw former two against each other already, now we just need to add Bobrova in the mix and see what will happen.

The journalist who conducted the interview could have made some of the errors. Karponosov is certainly no genius but I doubt he would get B/S' SD wrong.

 

[TheGothicEme]

4 years ago, roughly the same second year of OG quad, Bobrova/Soloviev placed 6th at GPF, and IK didn't qualify. 2 years after that, they all did such a great job at OG Sochi. Just give it time.
But - as much as I hate this - Russian teams will have to give everything they have at WCh if they want to bring 3 spots back. Even European Championships too, PC and CL are very dangerous teams, and it is difficult to place higher than 3rd place.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I think Nationals will be very interesting. The top 3 is almost decided, we just have to wait for them to compete. I mean, unless one of them have a disastrous competition they are not gonna get out of the podium - and even the top 6 is going to be a fight with S/B, M/K and Z/G.

I think, if there's one team that could surprise their way to the first place would be S/K. They had time to work their tech content since Rostelecom, and internationally they seem to be quite loved, especially by the PCS they got this year. They reworked their partnership since last year and it paid off, but we don't know if they are going to compete well again or not. Well, we don't know that about any of the teams, but I would say them especially based on their competition story - that's very short.

B/S could use the momentum of consistency they have build so far and maintain it to get the title again - for me they would be the less surprising team to win. As Snow said, they have the goods technically and they have been consistent, and that could very well stamp their passaport to Euros/Worlds. For them to get an ever better chance in the rest of the season I think they should work a bit more in their SD, but in competition it has been the best russian SD anyway, so...

And I/Z, I don't know, unless they go at it will all the fire they lacked so far, maybe they'll manage to win the title again. Between these three, I think they are the team less likely to win - based on what happened this season so far. But the competition don't start until it starts, so... I was really excited with them last year, especially because after the SD at Euros I really thought they had a good chance of even getting silver, and that would probably change a lot of their story. But they made a lot of errors in competition. It's rare for me to see them competing with two clean programs in the same comp, and that have been hurting them.

The good thing is that the event is shaping up to be the most competitive in a long time, I mean, any of the top 6 could get on the podium, if they compete well, so I hope all team give their best.

 

[katha]

It's such a competitive field and you don't really have a precedent for what will happen. IMO last year was an anomaly with B/S out, I/K split up and S/K struggling so much. So you can't really see the last Nationals as an indicator of much of anything. B/S, I/Z and S/K are the strongest three IMO and there's not much between them. B/S have a bit of an edge going into the competition.

Last year the judges did the best with an unusual situation. And I mean, I liked S/K even then so this is coming from a fan perspective, but... They didn't have the SD minimum. They skated relatively well for what they were capable of at the time...but that still wasn't "real world good skating". I/Z had performed strongest in the GP and M/K and S/B had done decently, so they got the nod. S/K didn't make glaring mistakes, that doesn't mean that they put in stellar performances. And they were obviously in no teknik. It wouldn't have helped anyone to send them anywhere, least of all S/K themselves. They wouldn't have gotten good results (perhaps even missed qualifying for Worlds anyway) and wouldn't have helped Russian ice dance either. And it's no matter that the three pairs sent didn't cover themselves with glory, S/K wouldn't have done better. Specifically: They lost it in the SD. And rightly so, their Paso SD was crap. They didn't get the tech marks during the GP, why should the tech panel at Russian Nationals hold them up? Their FD was vaguely competitive (and tbh, that doesn't speak well of the other three pairs...), but the SD had already done the damage. I guess what I'm saying is: I have a suspicion that last year was also a bit about whom NOT to send because the Fed thought they weren't ready yet and needed more training to get it together.

This year it's a strong field. Though they're all not quite up there with the international top pairs. Which is worrying and might make getting that 3rd spot at Worlds back difficult. B/S, S/K and I/Z seem capable of it, judging by their scores so far this season. But it's not gonna be easy.

 

[Sugarpova]

sooooooooooo any prdictions for Nats anyone?:yay:

the battle is on soon

 

[Marta25]

sooooooooooo any prdictions for Nats anyone?:yay:

the battle is on soon

I just want I/Z to qualify for the Euros and Worlds team, that`s all. After the last interview of Karponosov, it sounds like they would rather see a SKIZ Worlds teams, but they can`t deny how consistent B/S have been, so Nationals are going to be very, very exciting.

I think if everyone goes clean B/S, S/K and I/Z will be infront. M/K and S/B probably will only have a chance if one of the three make mistakes. M/K didn`t have a good GP season and S/B may have a FD score that is close to I/Z`s scores, but they are weak SD dancers.

The draw for the SD is Wednesday, I hope we will see the big three in one warm-up group, so nobody will be disadvantaged with an early start.

 

[Snow63]

I just want I/Z to qualify for the Euros and Worlds team, that`s all. After the last interview of Karponosov, it sounds like they would rather see a SKIZ Worlds teams, but they can`t deny how consistent B/S have been, so Nationals are going to be very, very exciting.

I think if everyone goes clean B/S, S/K and I/Z will be infront. M/K and S/B probably will only have a chance if one of the three make mistakes. M/K didn`t have a good GP season and S/B may have a FD score that is close to I/Z`s scores, but they are weak SD dancers.

The draw for the SD is Wednesday, I hope we will see the big three in one warm-up group, so nobody will be disadvantaged with an early start.

Where did he say that? Can you post a link?

 

[Marta25]

It was the interview that was already discussed in here. I thought it sounded like they are pushing for a SKIZ team. But you never know with the Russian Fed. BS have been very consistent this year, especially in getting their levels. They still need work on their GOE, though. It`s a similar case for IZ, who are getting good levels, but their GOE isn`t as good as could be adding to that they made some costly mistakes in the past. SK seem to have found each other as a team and they are strong FD skaters. Their weakness seems to be the SD, since she seems to struggle hitting her keypoints. So, it`s going to be interesting to see who comes out on top at Nationals.

 

[adelia]

I just want I/Z to qualify for the Euros and Worlds team, that`s all. After the last interview of Karponosov, it sounds like they would rather see a SKIZ Worlds teams, but they can`t deny how consistent B/S have been, so Nationals are going to be very, very exciting.

I think if everyone goes clean B/S, S/K and I/Z will be infront. M/K and S/B probably will only have a chance if one of the three make mistakes. M/K didn`t have a good GP season and S/B may have a FD score that is close to I/Z`s scores, but they are weak SD dancers.

The draw for the SD is Wednesday, I hope we will see the big three in one warm-up group, so nobody will be disadvantaged with an early start.

I don't think so. They will send whichever two teams does the best at Euros.

 

[katha]

Yeah, it's always been "Who does best at Euros gets the nod". I don't think they'll change that for anyone. The Fed wants to have the third spot back, whoever does the best in front of an international judging panel will make it. If it's I/Z and S/K, it's I/Z and S/K, no matter who won Nationals, but if it's someone else it's someone else.

 

[whatif]

My predictions, Euro Team:
S/K
I/Z
B/S

And even though the Fed would prefer to have I/Z, Worlds team:
S/K
B/S

As I think I/Z will screw up.