2015-16 State of Russian Ice Dance

[Abraxis12345]

The problem with Bobrova and Soloviev is that there is nothing special about them. They have neither the effortlessness of Papadakis and Cizeron, the technical dynamics of Chock and Bates, the precision of the Shibutanis, the charisma of Ilinykh and Zhiganshin, the polish of Cappellini and Lanotte nor the lines and edges of Sinitsina and Katsalapov or Weaver and Poje. The federation wants a world champion and not someone who is destined for third at best and only by luck.

 

[tvuckic16]

Agree that the Waltz SD really suits Viktoria. It's light and airy, which seems to be more her thing than heavy drama. That's all right, not everyone needs to be a diva and that's not the only style for a female ice dancer. Nikita is intense and dramatic anyway, so she can be the contrast to that. Light and shade.

I agree....there are different ways to approach ice dance.

Actually, one of the reasons I am only 90% on board with IZ is that I find them overly dramatic. I will talk about IZ since they are the potential favorites.

Now IZ fans will scream bloody murder when I say this but I do think IZ have sort of stagnated this year. I don't really like their SD and their FD is choreographically brilliant by Najarro, but that's all... what I mean by that is that it is almost over-choreographed for ice dance. The flow of the modern choreography is broken by the need to execute lifts and elements and the dance is not "catchy". If you don't know what I mean by "not catchy" just remember the public's reaction at CoC.

So yes, IZ have steadier lifts and great choreo, but one that they almost get lost in...they really haven't improved, for me, in any other aspect that would be worthy of an international podium.

 

[coldblueeyes]

The problem with Bobrova and Soloviev is that there is nothing special about them. They have neither the effortlessness of Papadakis and Cizeron, the technical dynamics of Chock and Bates, the precision of the Shibutanis, the charisma of Ilinykh and Zhiganshin, the polish of Cappellini and Lanotte nor the lines and edges of Sinitsina and Katsalapov or Weaver and Poje. The federation wants a world champion and not someone who is destined for third at best and only by luck.

Maybe they are not as effortless as P/C, but this year alone B/S have been technically better than all the american teams. That was evident at the GPF, where the only other team that got the same BV they got was C/L - the GOE, alas, another matter altogether. Now you say S/K have better edges than them? Do you even know what edges are? B/S have the best edge work of the current field, you can go back and watch all the teams to certify that.

And what about third by luck? They might not be be special, but it's your opinion. What about the other russian teams? How much time people are going to go along the hype for some teams only to give excuses when they don't deliver? Sorry, not sorry, but so far there is only one team - we might argue about a second one - delivering this year, and by their own merit, not because the others have made mistakes.

 

[Abraxis12345]

Well, except, as you said, base value is only part of the technical scores. See the 2012 Worlds SD where V&M and D&W had lower base values than the other teams in the top 5. And there have been other times when lower level teams have gotten higher base values than the top teams but rightly got killed on the GOEs.

Right now, none of the current Russian teams are at the level that we see from Chock and Bates and Weaver and Poje and Papadakis and Cizeron. Sinitsina and Katsalapov seem to be able to get the GOEs but their program is empty and not worth of a medal. Ilinykh and Zhiganshin have their heads up their asses, and Stepanova and Bukin and Monko and Khaliavin are hopeless

 

[Snow63]

Well, except, as you said, base value is only part of the technical scores. See the 2012 Worlds SD where V&M and D&W had lower base values than the other teams in the top 5. And there have been other times when lower level teams have gotten higher base values than the top teams but rightly got killed on the GOEs.

Right now, none of the current Russian teams are at the level that we see from Chock and Bates and Weaver and Poje and Papadakis and Cizeron. Sinitsina and Katsalapov seem to be able to get the GOEs but their program is empty and not worth of a medal. Ilinykh and Zhiganshin have their heads up their asses, and Stepanova and Bukin and Monko and Khaliavin are hopeless

GOE = reputation, and in some cases technical abilities.
Base value = technical abilities, and in some cases reputation.

 

[Abraxis12345]

GOE = reputation, and in some cases technical abilities.
Base value = technical abilities, and in some cases reputation.

Base Value can also be based on who is calling that day and whether they are friends with your coach. Like Durnev and Samokhin for the Zhulin teams, Dostanti for Shpilband.

 

[adelia]

No, I dont mean in real life. Did not mean to be offensive at all...
I meant in kiss&cry, interviews etc.

Okay thanks for explaining.
But not being verbose like Nikita is hardly an indication of being void of personality.

 

[katha]

Base Value can also be based on who is calling that day and whether they are friends with your coach. Like Durnev and Samokhin for the Zhulin teams, Dostanti for Shpilband.

Right. I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but the way Dostatni between 2005 and 2007 seemed to call almost all big events and somehow always was a major contributor in managing to keep Delobel/Schoenfelder off the podium and B/A on it was...uh, interesting.

 

[Watermelondrea]

I feel like Russian Ice Dance is this:

Disasters through the Olympic Cycle and right at the Olympics, one Russian Ice Dance team will rise through the standing. I have a feeling it'll Yanovskaya/Mozgov. Any thoughts on them?

 

[Watermelondrea]

Russia needs to something drastic right now if they want ANY hope of getting back three spots. I thought there was some hope since all of the top Ice Dance teams were at GPF and Bobrova/Soloviev placed 5th, plus Sinitsina/Katsalapov were technically 7th, that would've been enough. But with Papadakis/Cizeron and then Virtue/Moir MAYBE coming back, perhaps the best placing and Russian Ice Dance team will have 7th or 8th. If Guignard/Fabbrii will continue to develop the way they are, then push that back to 8th or 9th. I think the saddest thing is that McNamara/Carpenter, a JUNIOR team, beat Bobrova/Soloviev, perhaps Russia's best team right now. It's sad to see how much Russia is pushing pairs and ladies but leave nothing for there Ice Dance.

 

[Marta25]

It`s not like the Russian Fed isn`t putting any effort into Ice Dance. Of the last 6 World Junior Champions, 5 came from Russia, it`s just that they either broke up or struggle to breakthrough in the senior ranks. Besides, if V/M come back it`s for next year`s World Championship not this one and Guignard/Fabbri were only able to beat Ilinykh/Zhiganshin, because they messed up their SD and the Referee made a mistake with the lift deduction. It`s going to be hard to get that third spot back, but I do think that it`s absolutely possible.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Russia needs to something drastic right now if they want ANY hope of getting back three spots. I thought there was some hope since all of the top Ice Dance teams were at GPF and Bobrova/Soloviev placed 5th, plus Sinitsina/Katsalapov were technically 7th, that would've been enough. But with Papadakis/Cizeron and then Virtue/Moir MAYBE coming back, perhaps the best placing and Russian Ice Dance team will have 7th or 8th. If Guignard/Fabbrii will continue to develop the way they are, then push that back to 8th or 9th. I think the saddest thing is that McNamara/Carpenter, a JUNIOR team, beat Bobrova/Soloviev, perhaps Russia's best team right now. It's sad to see how much Russia is pushing pairs and ladies but leave nothing for there Ice Dance.

When did that happen? We all saw how their scores during the JGP circuit were very overmarked, so no, they didn't beat them. And let's not even compare their situation too, M/C are the pair to beat this year, and that always amounts to some benefit for them, while B/S are just coming back, and in my opinion are being lowballed in the GOE and PCS.

G/F are getting good, but I don't see them beating any of the russians, barring a mistake, like what happened at COR.

And it's not that I don't think Russia doesn't need to do something drastic, I just think they should put their money in a team that has been bringing results, and not the team that could bring results but never does. As I said, hype only gets you so far. To be quite honest, Stepanova and Bukin was the team that brought any substancial medal for Russia last year, and look where they are - not that I think they have the goods yet, but you never know what some pushing could do.

 

[katha]

And it's not that I don't think Russia doesn't need to do something drastic, I just think they should put their money in a team that has been bringing results, and not the team that could bring results but never does. As I said, hype only gets you so far. To be quite honest, Stepanova and Bukin was the team that brought any substancial medal for Russia last year, and look where they are - not that I think they have the goods yet, but you never know what some pushing could do.

Tbh, this is the absolute horror scenario for me. I think the "they can't skate" hammer gets used way too often by fans and more often than not it's a ridiculous exaggeration. But S/B's lack of skating skills is something that I find very obvious and rather bothersome. IMO at this point they are all hype and little substance. They're relatively consistent, sure, but is this really the way Russian ice dance should go? Shudder. I know Tarasova backs them and apparently they have some Fed support, but eh. Unless they drastically improve I hope they're not Russia's great next thing.

 

[Snow63]

Russia needs to something drastic right now if they want ANY hope of getting back three spots. I thought there was some hope since all of the top Ice Dance teams were at GPF and Bobrova/Soloviev placed 5th, plus Sinitsina/Katsalapov were technically 7th, that would've been enough. But with Papadakis/Cizeron and then Virtue/Moir MAYBE coming back, perhaps the best placing and Russian Ice Dance team will have 7th or 8th. If Guignard/Fabbrii will continue to develop the way they are, then push that back to 8th or 9th. I think the saddest thing is that McNamara/Carpenter, a JUNIOR team, beat Bobrova/Soloviev, perhaps Russia's best team right now. It's sad to see how much Russia is pushing pairs and ladies but leave nothing for there Ice Dance.

Stop bringing the drama. McNamara/Carpenter never beaten Bobrova/Soloviev, and probably never will do that, because when they will gain enough reputation to shine in Seniors (IF it will happen) Bobrova/Soloviev will probably retire already. Guignard/Fabbri are too weak to beat any of the three teams, when they're clean. Virtue/Moir will not be back 'till Worlds, and who gave you guarantees that 'top 5' teams will be scored the same? Or will not make any mistakes? Or Russian team will perform as they can and should?


P.S. I can't read some posts in this thread without a smile. But people are entitled to have your own opinion of course. Even if they have nothing to do with reality.

 

[surimi]

Sorry, it seems I've been living under a rock lately - where did Virtue/Moir hint they might return for Worlds?
I'm hoping I/Z will remain Russian # 1 because for me they have the 'it' and they stand out in the Russian ID field, and when given the right programs they shine. S/K got the right vehicles this year though, and they seem very good. B/S have done nothing for me for years, and so far I am not smitten with Y/M either. The top 3, 4 even counting S/B, seem on equal footing this season. It's the next one I'm curious about, as I'm sure a favorite will not emerge before then.

 

[whatif]

I may be wrong but I suspect that dance is no longer a big priority for Russian Fed. Most resources are now going into singles and pairs.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Tbh, this is the absolute horror scenario for me. I think the "they can't skate" hammer gets used way too often by fans and more often than not it's a ridiculous exaggeration. But S/B's lack of skating skills is something that I find very obvious and rather bothersome. IMO at this point they are all hype and little substance. They're relatively consistent, sure, but is this really the way Russian ice dance should go? Shudder. I know Tarasova backs them and apparently they have some Fed support, but eh. Unless they drastically improve I hope they're not Russia's great next thing.

I don't think this is the way the russian dance should go, but let's be realist, they compete as well as they can and they deliver when it matters. And they are not the only ones over-hyped. If Tarasova sometimes sells her soul for S/B, let's take a look at what happens in the forum about I/Z. They can't ever do a competition without mistakes, and yet people are always going on and on about their amazing abilities - which never translate into results. And this is what the fed cares about.

If at some point I/Z or even S/K start to deliver constantly, I don't think the fed will have a problem in pushing them. Until then, why not push other teams that have been competing well?

 

[ice coverage]

... where did Virtue/Moir hint they might return for Worlds? ...

They didn't.

TSL has interpreted a recent V/M video as some form of hinting of a return to competition.

But I watched the V/M video (from the CBC) that TSL posted on FB, and I don't discern any such hinting.

(Although I know that V/M never have closed the door completely to returning to competition.)

 

[Abraxis12345]

I don't think this is the way the russian dance should go, but let's be realist, they compete as well as they can and they deliver when it matters.

I wouldn't call falling in the SD at Worlds delivering when it matters. All the Rusdian teams have problems. But really do you invest in the team with low risk but mediocre returns or the high risk but high return team?

 

[Marta25]

S/B`s medal at Euros happened because I/Z had a huge mistake in the FD. It wasn`t S/B`s fault that I/Z screwed up that lift, but I think that S/B`s success depends a lot on others making mistakes.

Anyway, most Russian Ice Dancers arrived today in Yekaterinenburg. I`m not sure about M/K, though. There are rumors that they withdrew because of injury, but they are still on the entry list.