2015-16 State of Russian Ice Dance

[coldblueeyes]

I agree, and it won't do I/Z any good in my opinion to go to Europeans and have mediocre results again.

I think this is probably it.

If they go to Euros they wont't have the same push the fed is giving to the other two teams, and that's obvious, but the international panels haven't giving them that much of an advantage for they so-called difficult programs. It would only hurt them even more to go there and end up as the sure third team, becaue I doubt, unless a real major mistake from one of the other two russian teams, that they would get to pass them in the stands. And we know what is the team prone to major mistakes this year, unfortunately.

 

[tvuckic16]

I doubt that. That they like it, I mean. It would probably be OKAY to write a petition, I mean any person is free to do anything they want, right? And it would probably be OKAY to even expect something out of it. But to do it, the petition should at LEAST look official and COMPETENT, with argumentation based on ACTUAL RULES, with competent evidence base.

For example,



But in the petition the phrase about their twizzles was:


What the hell is 2 points deduction? And what exactly was a 'major mistake'?

Anyway, you get my point. And I'm sure, Elena and Ruslan will NEVER support such incompetence.

P.S. I don't have anything against childlike protests and righteous anger, I'm the same sometimes. But if you write something to officials, and you expect them to read it and do as you wish, you can at least formulate your sentences decently. Sorry. Now I finished.

I agree. The petition is more a rambling tantrum than well formulated ideas. It is not convincing to anyone. Also, I don't think SK are the ones they should go after, I think it would be far more convincing to try to argue against SB. SK were deducted for their twizzle mistake, so its not like that mistake was ignored. With their mistake they lost 1st place and they were 3rd in the FD. I would be interested to revisit how much IZ were deducted for their twizzle mistake at Worlds last year.

So overall, it sounds like an unrealistic, sour-grapes rant, which does IZ more of a disservice than not. Also, there is a danger that raising such a petition will bring the Fed to closely examine all of IZ's levels and technique as well. IZ were hardly perfect and I would realistically say not technically superior to BS or SK. Maybe SB? So, I think this whole petition is a double edged sword.

 

[Ekm]

A few pages back, now lost forever in all of this I&Z petition stuff someone asked about the possibility of Z&G getting a GP assignment next season, so I decided to look into a bit. The largest number of entries for a country would be 18 (3 per event), this past season 12 spots were taken by Russian teams, as this was the most spots any nation had in ice dance there is at least decent reason to believe it may be less next year, but to simplify things I'll run (at least initially) on the assumption of 12 spots.

Of the 12 spots I would think it highly likely that Bobrova/Soloviev, Sinitsina/Katsalapov, Stepanova/Bukin, and Ilinykh/Zhiganshin will each get 2 spots, so that's 8 spots down. 4 spots (potentially) would be left to be filled by the following teams: Monko and Khaliavin (current WR: 15, currently 27 on SB list, both of these will likely fall as they are done for the season internationally), Yanovskaya/ Mozgov (current WR: 21, currently 34 on SB list, also done the season internationally), Popova/Vlasenko (current WR: 30, currently 20 on SB list, these could improve as they still have JR Worlds), and Zahorski/Guerriero (current WR: 90, I can't find them listed on the SB list though surely they have a qualifying score).

As things stand currently M/K and Y/M would both be guaranteed a spot by virtue of being in the top 24 of the WR (I think Y/M could feasibly drop out by seasons end, but 10 couples would have to pass M/K), and P/V would be guaranteed a spot by having a top 24 SB score (while it is possible other couples could pass them they could also improve upon this). So basically, there are 1-3 potentially open spots, the best Z&G could realistically hope for is a host pick, but even that seems a bit of a stretch. If they do not get a GP I hope to see them in a few CS events and other SR B competitions.

(Please note: I know P/V have to move up next year, but I wasn't sure about any of the other JR couples so I did not include them.)

 

[Ice Dance]

Well, Russia could offer Hawayek & Baker or McNamara & Carpenter an extra spot in exchange for an extra one for M&K. (Or, you know, some other political deal. France may want a spot for their young team. Or Canada/Russia/Japan may want one as well).

And that would leave Russia free to select Z&G for their host spot. I would think they have a good shot of being selected at home over Y&M considering their higher ranking at Nationals. P&V could get that slot too, but their placements thus far this season combined with Y&M's struggles don't make that an obvious argument. Anyway, I think there's a chance.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I still have fond memories of the Euros that season. They really nailed the FD in that outing. And such were their combined powers of charisma and performance ability that they somehow hypnotized the judges into thinking that this dreck was a good program and brainwashed them into giving them first place in that portion. They WON the FD portion with Ghost! No wonder people still miss them, when they were on (which wasn't nearly often enough) they were really special and could basically sell fridges to penguins. Or, well, bamboozle the judges into thinking Ghost was a good program.

If this was the 6.0 era, I would have built a SHRINE to I/K. Because when they were on, they were the epitome of a great Russian ID tradition. But. But. But:
--they weren't skating in a world of 6.0, and even the Swan Lake program was massively overscored (go back in the archives and read the critiques of it at the time--it was simple steps and open holds all the way through)
--questionable music choices (a honky tonk country song for a finnstep program? Honey, puhleeze!)
--they were so so so so so so so so inconsistent--all the time!

The Ghost FD was simply the biggest jewel in a Camp Crown!

 

[WeakAnkles]

Well, Russia could offer Hawayek & Baker or McNamara & Carpenter an extra spot in exchange for an extra one for M&K. (Or, you know, some other political deal. France may want a spot for their young team. Or Canada/Russia/Japan may want one as well).

And that would leave Russia free to select Z&G for their host spot. I would think they have a good shot of being selected at home over Y&M considering their higher ranking at Nationals. P&V could get that slot too, but their placements thus far this season combined with Y&M's struggles don't make that an obvious argument. Anyway, I think there's a chance.

Good lord NO NO NO. M/K to me epitomize everything that is WRONG with the current state of Russian ID. I wish someone would tell them and their entire coaching/choreography team, WAKE UP! IT'S NOT THE NINETIES ANYMORE!!!

 

[Ice Dance]

Good lord NO NO NO. M/K to me epitomize everything that is WRONG with the current state of Russian ID. I wish someone would tell them and their entire coaching/choreography team, WAKE UP! IT'S NOT THE NINETIES ANYMORE!!!

Like them or not, they defeated--quite fairly, IMO--Paul & Islam and Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen at Skate Canada this season; and therefore, deserve to be ranked on the GP higher than they are going to finish after having to pull out of Cup of Russia.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Like them or not, they defeated--quite fairly, IMO--Paul & Islam and Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen at Skate Canada this season; and therefore, deserve to be ranked on the GP higher than they are going to finish after having to pull out of Cup of Russia.

You do have a point. I have freely admitted they are on my Irrational Hate List (readers of tomandlorenzo.com will know what I'm talking about), but given their results I have to agree with you (even if I don't really want to--hey, I'm human!).

 

[Ekm]

Well, Russia could offer Hawayek & Baker or McNamara & Carpenter an extra spot in exchange for an extra one for M&K. (Or, you know, some other political deal. France may want a spot for their young team. Or Canada/Russia/Japan may want one as well).

And that would leave Russia free to select Z&G for their host spot. I would think they have a good shot of being selected at home over Y&M considering their higher ranking at Nationals. P&V could get that slot too, but their placements thus far this season combined with Y&M's struggles don't make that an obvious argument. Anyway, I think there's a chance.

I suspect that H&B (9th WR, 17th SB) and M&C (24 WR, 10th SB) would wind up with two spots anyway as each will be guaranteed a spot in the initial selection, and if either or both don't get 2 I suspect they'd get the SA host picks.

As for M&K there's a decently good chance they'll be guaranteed one, but I'm just not sure of how highly they are regarded in the Russian pecking order, would the Russian Fed give them a host pick for their 2nd or politic to get them one, I'm not sure but I expect there aren't too many eggs in that basket.

 

[Ice Dance]

I suspect that H&B (9th WR, 17th SB) and M&C (24 WR, 10th SB) would wind up with two spots anyway as each will be guaranteed a spot in the initial selection, and if either or both don't get 2 I suspect they'd get the SA host picks.

As for M&K there's a decently good chance they'll be guaranteed one, but I'm just not sure of how highly they are regarded in the Russian pecking order, would the Russian Fed give them a host pick for their 2nd or politic to get them one, I'm not sure but I expect there aren't too many eggs in that basket.

I'm not sure how far H&B might drop. (Would someone like to do the math?) They had to pull out of CoC and they are highly unlikely to get an invite to 4CCs this year, much less Worlds, so they are likely to fall in the standings. Coomes & Buckland, Paul & Islam, Nazarova & Nikitin, Bobrova & Soloviev, Stepanova & Bukin, Testa & Csolley, Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen, Kim & Minov, and McNamara & Carpenter will all obviously compete at Europeans, Junior Worlds, 4CC's, and/or Worlds. Ninth place is high, but this is a discipline in which the 11th place finishers at Worlds last season, the third place medalists a CoR, and the 5th place finishers at Europeans weren't guaranteed two spots this season. And as we all know, most countries were not selecting the top athletes on the substitution list. In any case, the U.S. also has Cannuscio & McManus and the Parsons currently ranked top 28 so if the Parsons decide to move up, the U.S. could use both of those host spots for those teams.

 

[lauravvv]

--questionable music choices (a honky tonk country song for a finnstep program? Honey, puhleeze!)

Perhaps you would not be so outraged if you heard what kind of music high level ballroom-latin dancers choose for their competitive dances. Even there it's not about style anymore - just proper rhythms. Of course, there are still also more traditional choices, but there are plenty of non-traditional choices too, and I have not seen dancers being punished for that.

 

[Ekm]

I'm not sure how far H&B might drop. (Would someone like to do the math?) They had to pull out of CoC and they are highly unlikely to get an invite to 4CCs this year, much less Worlds, so they are likely to fall in the standings. Coomes & Buckland, Paul & Islam, Nazarova & Nikitin, Bobrova & Soloviev, Stepanova & Bukin, Testa & Csolley, Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen, Kim & Minov, and McNamara & Carpenter will all obviously compete at Europeans, Junior Worlds, 4CC's, and/or Worlds. Ninth place is high, but this is a discipline in which the 11th place finishers at Worlds last season, the third place medalists a CoR, and the 5th place finishers at Europeans weren't guaranteed two spots this season. And as we all know, most countries were not selecting the top athletes on the substitution list. In any case, the U.S. also has Cannuscio & McManus and the Parsons currently ranked top 28 so if the Parsons decide to move up, the U.S. could use both of those host spots for those teams.

Didn't do the math on everyone (and a number of those teams are likely to pass H&B), but Kim and Minov are currently 675 points behind them and got 362 points from worlds last year, and F-B/S are 665 behind and they had 418 from worlds last year. Also the aforementioned I/Z and M/K are also behind them and we're unlikely to see either again this season (and Hurtado and Diaz and Davis and White are still currently in the top 24). While I can see the Parsons getting a host pick if they turn sr (though I believe they are high enough on the SB list right now to guarantee their own spot), I can't see the US Fed passing over either of those teams for Cannuscio and McManus.

All this as well as what I outlined earlier with the Russian teams hammers home the point that more Ice dance spots really are needed.

 

[Snow63]

Good lord NO NO NO. M/K to me epitomize everything that is WRONG with the current state of Russian ID. I wish someone would tell them and their entire coaching/choreography team, WAKE UP! IT'S NOT THE NINETIES ANYMORE!!!

In my opinion, Monko/Khaliavin is the most underscored Russian team. Probably in history And yes, I'm serious. Dead serious. Except for 'in history' of course.

 

[Ice Dance]

While I can see the Parsons getting a host pick if they turn sr (though I believe they are high enough on the SB list right now to guarantee their own spot), I can't see the US Fed passing over either of those teams for Cannuscio and McManus.

No, I don't believe USFSA would pass over either team. But if H&B and M&C could get two spots elsewhere, then USFSA could use those host spots for teams that still have international merit. Not that other international teams don't need them just as much (they certainly do); but like M&K, H&B may finish lower than their merit because they had to withdraw from CoC. They placed top 4 at SA (above N&N) and were in the top 4 (above T&C) before having to withdraw. As junior world champions, Y&M had two non-host spots this season. So if M&C can win junior worlds, then they have an argument for meriting two as well.

Lots of international teams can make that argument. Tobias & Tkachenko seem very likely to be at least top 15 in the World (and defeated H&B earlier this season), but are only ranked 61st at the moment and have no option of a host spot at all.

YES, the GP fields in dance deserve to be expanded! (In fact, I'm all for eliminating the host spots if that will help some of these competitive teams have the chance to compete with their peers). Imagine if the junior world champions in singles and pairs had not had two spots at this year's Grand Prix. We would have a different ladies' champion, a different men's bronze medalist, and a different fifth place GPF pairs finisher. Not to mention the absence of Boyang Jin.

 

[WeakAnkles]

In my opinion, Monko/Khaliavin is the most underscored Russian team. Probably in history And yes, I'm serious. Dead serious. Except for 'in history' of course.

Part of the joy of an Irrational Hate List is that you need not justify it with anything like facts or logic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[we really need an "angelic" icon for moments like this!]



ETA: I still gave you a thumbs up for the quoted post, even if I DISAGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE LETTER AND SPACE OF IT. Because, yes, I'm that kind of guy!

 

[Snow63]

Part of the joy of an Irrational Hate List is that you need not justify it with anything like facts or logic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[we really need an "angelic" icon for moments like this!]

ETA: I still gave you a thumbs up for the quoted post, even if I DISAGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE LETTER AND SPACE OF IT. Because, yes, I'm that kind of guy!

Hate is such a strong word, I don't like when people use it. No offence.

And how on the Earth can you possible disagree with 'space'?

 

[Mattieu]

I suspect that H&B (9th WR, 17th SB) and M&C (24 WR, 10th SB) would wind up with two spots anyway as each will be guaranteed a spot in the initial selection, and if either or both don't get 2 I suspect they'd get the SA host picks.

As for M&K there's a decently good chance they'll be guaranteed one, but I'm just not sure of how highly they are regarded in the Russian pecking order, would the Russian Fed give them a host pick for their 2nd or politic to get them one, I'm not sure but I expect there aren't too many eggs in that basket.

I can't see how they will be guaranteed one, as by the time the 3rd year of points are removed from the ISU ranking, they will be out of the top 25
They also don't have a top 25 season's best.
So their only hope of a GP is a host spot IMHO

 

[Ekm]

I can't see how they will be guaranteed one, as by the time the 3rd year of points are removed from the ISU ranking, they will be out of the top 25
They also don't have a top 25 season's best.
So their only hope of a GP is a host spot IMHO

I was just eyeballing, and not recalibrating the points, but that of course makes sense. All the more reason there should be more spots. I also suspect I might be highballing the number, the next highest number of assignments was the US with 10 (and one of those was a substitution). Also, I believe the French jrs Laurialt & LeGac are no longer age eligible next year so that would be one more host pic taken. Taking all this into consideration there's a good possibility that several of the Russian teams, including some that had two spots this year may wind up on the outside looking in,

I dont necessarily think that reducing host picks is the answer, but maybe there should be a strict guideline to ensure they would be competitive (and maybe substitution rules should be stricter and you know actually followed).

 

[Ice Dance]

I can't see how they will be guaranteed one, as by the time the 3rd year of points are removed from the ISU ranking, they will be out of the top 25

All the more reason there should be more spots.

Will M&K drop that far? Ouch.

As has been discussed elsewhere, all the more reason for Russia to start sending its dance teams out onto the Challenger series. A team like, M&K, with an eighth place finish at Worlds--only one spot behind last year's national champions--should never have been in this situation. They could have won a couple of those Challengers. Instead, they're ranked over 30 points below Thomas & Eaton in this Season's World Ranking. For goodness sake! And M&K are a team that Russia had to know coming in might not qualify for Europeans/Worlds. Even if M&K had matched their point total from SC at CoR, they would only be ranked 24th as of today on that season's ranking list.

All that said, Sinitsina & Katsalapov are still down in 35th place in the World Rankings, and obviously they received an invite to Skate America this season. (Along with the host spot at COR).

 

[Sugarpova]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BBHsHWrCk-6/?taken-by=ruskating

:yay:
the state is pretty good