Slow Motion Jump Editing (AKA: Sam's Jump-a-ma-tron)

[Hyena]

I'd be really interested in a video comparing pair team's twists. I've seen a lot of people criticizing Stolbova/Klimov's twist but I have trouble distinguishing "good" from "bad" twists, unless it's a big error like Scimeca/Knierim's quad twist in their GPF free program.

 

[melmel]

Any event in particular?

Shoma's GPF 2015 ? or his SP at TEB 2015 (sorryit took me so long to reply to you ><)

 

[solani]

@Sam-Skwantch
Could you make a jumpamatron of Kolyada's LP at Europeans? There's one 3Lz in it (the one in the slow-mo part before the scores come up) which looked crazy good, no pre-rotation at all.
EDIT: the 3Lz-3T combo in the short

 

[largeman]

@Sam-Skwantch
Could you make a jumpamatron of Kolyada's LP at Europeans? There's one 3Lz in it (the one in the slow-mo part before the scores come up) which looked crazy good, no pre-rotation at all.

WOW that looked AMAZING

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@Sam-Skwantch
Could you make a jumpamatron of Kolyada's LP at Europeans? There's one 3Lz in it (the one in the slow-mo part before the scores come up) which looked crazy good, no pre-rotation at all.
EDIT: the 3Lz-3T combo in the short

Will do

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

https://youtu.be/1wELSA51fWM

Megamatron!!!!! Ladies Jumps and the rotation discussion.

Yulia:
3z
(PR) Right at that 180 degrees mark but nice step up into the jump
(UR) Almost none
(GOE) +1 Nice tidy jump with great flow right back into the program.

3t-3t
(PR) Right about 180 on the first jump and under 180 on the second
(UR) Very little on the first but the second one was tough to judge for me. I think it was well within 90 degrees but the frame before it may have put this jump right at 90 degrees which is still good but nearly borderline.
(GOE) +1 again for great speed into and the nice flow the jump carried right back into the feeling of the program.

Im trying to be objective with Yulia so take it for what it is

Rika:
3f-3t
(PR) Good on both take offs
(UR) Clean on the flip but the 3t was a bit eeked out.
(GOE) zero

3lz(e)
(PR) Good but on the line
(UR) I think she got away with this one. It looked like the blade hit the ground and she had to turn out over 90 degrees.
(GOE) Considering the obvious wrong edge she also had flow and issues on this one that where obvious in real time. -1

Alisa:
3f
(PR) Good
(UR) very little
(GOE) +1 Nice clean jump that fits right in and transitions in and out

3z-3t
(PR) I can see where some might think she uses Satoko's technique to PR but I think she is only at the 180 point on the 3Z but that 3t looks a bit iffy
(UR) Almost none on the Lutz but just under 90 degrees on the 3t.
(GOE) +1 because barring any TP calls it looked great in real time and that transition out is great!

Satoko:
3z-3t
(PR) Good on the Lutz but the 3t is at 270 degrees
(UR) Good on the Lutz but at 90 degrees on the 3t. in combination. Not sure why (PR) +(UR) does not = Downgrade
(GOE) -1 It just looks like so much work to me and the nice easiness she carries herself around the program with disappears completely,

3f
(PR) Again with the 270 PR!!
(UR) Right on 90 degrees again Should probably be a 3f<<
(GOE) -1 It just looks whippy and jarring in such a nice program.


Mao:
3f-3lo
(PR) 180 degrees on the 3f and just beyond 180 for the 3lo but its a loop people let it go. All good here.
(UR) Fine on the 3f but the Loop is right on the 90 degree slide and she got called for this.
(GOE) +1 Beautiful jump that although has issues that the TP can see....in real time this jump is impressive and full. She maybe under rotated the loop but I don't like the call.

 

[ioanna]

https://youtu.be/1wELSA51fWM

Megamatron!!!!! Ladies Jumps and the rotation discussion.

Thank you for making this so promptly. The quality of the videos is sometimes inefficient to determine whether the toepick is still on the ice or not but I think you guessed them right. The first and obvious observation I can make is that all of the ladies in the video prerotate their jumps. Secondly I feel like the video angles play an important part in order to determine the extent of the prerotation.

Comparing Satoko's 3-3 and Rika's 3-3 (both are prone to underrotate the second triple), however you watch them, slow motion or real time, Satoko doesn't do (or doesn't look like she's doing) a curve on the ice like Rika is doing. I can see ice flying when Rika is landing her second triple and she also prerotates and underrotates that jump. Looking at the protocols, Rika (Cup of China) didn't get any UR call for the combo and she received +0.90 GOE. Satoko (Skate America) didn't get a UR call for the combo and she received +0.40 GOE, but she received a UR call for her 3F with -1.10 GOE.

Mao's flip looks prerotated but I'm not sure if it's underrotated since she goes right into a triple loop. The landing of the triple loop is underrotated and it was marked underrotated in the protocols. She received -0.50 GOE.

Alisa's 3F looks prerotated but it's not underrotated. The 3T in her 3Lz-3T combination looks prerotated and slightly underrotated, imo. The same thing applies to Yulia's 3T in her 3Lz-3T combo.

These are my personal observations.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thank you for making this so promptly. The quality of the videos is sometimes inefficient to determine whether the toepick is still on the ice or not but I think you guessed them right. The first and obvious observation I can make is that all of the ladies in the video prerotate their jumps. Secondly I feel like the video angles play an important part in order to determine the extent of the prerotation.

I agree. It's hard to find the perfect angle and sometimes the camera is even in motion which can change a lot in determining the starting and stopping points.

FWIW I really try to look at the blade when determining a jumps rotation. Wind up your body all you like as far as I'm concerned. It's the figure skate that I count the rotations of.

The quality of the videos is sometimes inefficient to determine whether the toepick is still on the ice or not but I think you guessed them right.

It's hard to blend different videos that may have different specs but just to be clear you can select 720pHD in the options if you hadn't already but Rika's footage is blurry. I almost took it out and replaced it with Zhenia or Lena but I'm kinda lazy at times.

 

[ioanna]

So basically Satoko has two PR issues: the 3T in her combo and the 3F. The problem is that the prerotation is more obvious than those of the other ladies who are just under or exactly at 180 degrees, but this can only really be determined with a clear angle. In real time they cannot be noticed. The only competition where her 3F wasn't called for underrotation or edge was 4CC. So, considering the rule book, CSG has already written a detailed explanation for GOEs here.

If Satoko's 270 degree PR should be called << then everyone else should get <. Except we don't know, because the ISU has no prerotation rules. We don't actually know what's acceptable or not or at least I don't claim to, because I'm not a trained specialist in the technical panel. Does Satoko jump "7 doubles" in her FS? No, she jumps 2 in her opening combination. I feel like some people aren't even that bothered about this but they love to nitpick and start arguments.

As for an underrotated jump getting +GOE because it looks full and impressive, I don't agree. A figure skater noted in Satoko's fan fest thread that it's extremely difficult to rotate with so much speed like Satoko does. Just because it looks too skimpy for some people doesn't mean it should get -GOE. Other skaters raise their shoulders up to their ears, force their legs to jump and lack flow on the landing but get +GOE anyway. Except it's not that much of a problem because the jumps look big.

Once again, this is my point of view.

 

[solani]

I really like the Mega Jumpamatron because seeing those skaters one after the other really shows how flat Satoko's trajectory is. This is a major advantage on the landing imho. UR's on the landing aren't so obvious because of it and it looks like it's much easier for her to control the landing. I think she can do more jumps in training because of it, the strain on her body really must be lessened because of the flat trajectory. That explains her consistency. I'm kind of ok with the "cheated take-off" rule, although I think if there's an obvious "spring" to a toe jump right after the pick that should be a criteria for positive GOE.
The only thing that I cannot accept is that Satoko often gets away with obvioius UR's on the landing. That should not happen, the tech panels should review all of her landings, everything else is unfair to the other skaters. I don't like that she doesn't use her left leg to jump at all when she does a flip, but because of the fact that she underrotates the jump most of the time I would be ok if the jump would only be called underrotated correctly.

 

[NaVi]

Satoko:
3z-3t
(PR) Good on the Lutz but the 3t is at 270 degrees
(UR) Good on the Lutz but at 90 degrees on the 3t. in combination. Not sure why (PR) +(UR) does not = Downgrade
(GOE) -1 It just looks like so much work to me and the nice easiness she carries herself around the program with disappears completely,

I think it's more than 90 degree's UR... take off, landing.

They need to find a better and easier heuristic for deciding when a jump is or isn't rotated and I personally think it should take into account the direction of the jumps momentum.

 

[ioanna]

The only thing that I cannot accept is that Satoko often gets away with obvioius UR's on the landing. That should not happen, the tech panels should review all of her landings, everything else is unfair to the other skaters. I don't like that she doesn't use her left leg to jump at all when she does a flip, but because of the fact that she underrotates the jump most of the time I would be ok if the jump would only be called underrotated correctly.

That's what they have been doing all this time. Every single jump of hers had a UR call in 2013. In 2014 there were half of them. This season she got 4 UR calls and a downgrade. Most of the UR calls were for her 3F, in addition with a permanent ! or e call with -GOE (the only exception is 4CC). Her edge jumps are definitely not underrotated, her lutz is not underrotated so what's left is her 3F - which really is reviewed all the time - while they give her the benefit of doubt for the 3T she does in combinations. I hardly find this a problem since they also give the benefit of doubt to skaters with wrong edge on flips and lutzes, and even jumps that look UR.

 

[solani]

That's what they have been doing all this time. Every single jump of hers had a UR call in 2013. In 2014 there were half of them. This season she got 4 UR calls and a downgrade. Most of the UR calls were for her 3F, in addition with a permanent ! or e call with -GOE (the only exception is 4CC). Her edge jumps are definitely not underrotated, her lutz is not underrotated so what's left is her 3F - which really is reviewed all the time - while they give her the benefit of doubt for the 3T she does in combinations. I hardly find this a problem since they also give the benefit of doubt to skaters with wrong edge on flips and lutzes, and even jumps that look UR.

She's been getting better at rotating her jumps since 2013, that's true. But her jumps aren't reviewed most of the time. If they were she would have more < in her protocols. Example: her combo in the SP at NHK. The reason obviously is that her landings look smooth (because of her flat trajectory) even if they're underrotated. Almost all of her landings are borderline.

 

[ioanna]

She's been getting better at rotating her jumps since 2013, that's true. But her jumps aren't reviewed most of the time. If they were she would have more < in her protocols. Example: her combo in the SP at NHK. The reason obviously is that her landings look smooth (because of her flat trajectory) even if they're underrotated. Almost all of her landings are borderline.

I agree with you about the combo. The 3T in the combo looks borderline. The 3F is really bad as well. But she cleaned up the landings on most of her jumps. I'm not trained enough to give my personal opinion for sure but I have heard several former figure skaters or coaches say there is no obvious UR on the majority of her jumps.

Jumps are her weakness but the other skaters have their own weaknesses as well. Inferior skating skills, less transitions, labored footwork, inferior levels and GOEs on spins and stsq and so on. I really don't think what Satoko is doing is unfair to other skaters. I would wait to watch those other skaters skate as clean as she does before calling her scoring unfair to them. The last time a skater performed two programs as clean as she does, it was Medvedeva at GPF and she scored 222 over Satoko's 208. The judging at GPF is really what makes people angry with Satoko's scores now, because they want to close the huge gap between Medvedeva and the rest of the field.

 

[solani]

What Satoko does isn't unfair, the judging is. That's a huge difference to me. And when you only look at her score sheet you wouldn't know that jumps are her weak spot, because it's not reflected there. I think that her axel, loop and salchow are good, but she does lutz and flip in her SP. Why? Because she scores equal or higher for those jumps also in the FS. And it's not only the BV, she also gets equal or higher GOE's for those jumps most of the time. And that doesn't make much sense to me. Fairer judging would force her to do the loop in the SP, not the flip.

 

[sabinfire]

Mao:
3f-3lo
(PR) 180 degrees on the 3f and just beyond 180 for the 3lo but its a loop people let it go. All good here.
(UR) Fine on the 3f but the Loop is right on the 90 degree slide and she got called for this.
(GOE) +1 Beautiful jump that although has issues that the TP can see....in real time this jump is impressive and full. She maybe under rotated the loop but I don't like the call.

Nice work on compiling these jumps! :agree: I'm doing my own analysis to see if we reach the same conclusions.

Starting with Mao, I made a 45-second video to demonstrate what I saw:

Mao Asada
3F-3Lo
https://youtu.be/pV-kubrTFOk

I think you're being lenient on the 3Lo< landing. The 3F toepick may have touched down a bit earlier than your video shows (maybe unclear?), though the 3Lo definitely touched down earlier. Mao's 3Lo barely gets 2 rotations in the air between when the toepick leaves the ice and when it touches down again. Take a look at this and let me know if you think this is "maybe under rotated" and a bad call.

Also, check out 0:18 to 0:25 on the video, I froze where the blade hits the ice, then slowly backed up a few frames and then moved forward a few frames. The blade is perfectly clear as soon as it hits the ice, as the blur of the momentum has greatly reduced at this precise second. The camera angle and clarity of this 3Lo landing is pretty amazing, IMO.

A little photo album with both our landing guesses:
http://imgur.com/a/y2d1K (#1 your 3Lo, #2 my 3Lo, #3 your 3F, #4 my 3F)

Interested in hearing your thoughts...

 

[Ultra]

The 3F toepick may have touched down a bit earlier than your video shows (maybe unclear?)

A standard "triple" only needs to be 2.25 revolutions in the air, it's right there in the rules.
The flip landing is within the quarter turn according to the spirit of the rules. The ISU's own manuals say skaters are always to be given the benefit of the doubt.
No one elses flip was more fully rotated, and no one else would have been downgraded for this exact jump.

The picture you posted with the toepick touching the ground is still considered clean, it's right at the quarter turn where everyone else lands.

(GOE) +1

Okay video, but one problem with your post.
GOE is a series of yes/no questions. I don't know what you mean by "+1".
Could you go through each GOE criteria and mark "y/n" so we can try to get an idea of what these jumps are actually worth.
When you say "+1", what GOE yes/no criteria are you checking off?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Okay video, but one problem with your post.
GOE is a series of yes/no questions. I don't know what you mean by "+1".
Could you go through each GOE criteria and mark "y/n" so we can try to get an idea of what these jumps are actually worth.
When you say "+1", what GOE yes/no criteria are you checking off?

For every skater or for one in partucular?

 

[sabinfire]

A standard "triple" only needs to be 2.25 revolutions in the air, it's right there in the rules.
The flip landing is within the quarter turn according to the spirit of the rules. The ISU's own manuals say skaters are always to be given the benefit of the doubt.
No one elses flip was more fully rotated, and no one else would have been downgraded for this exact jump.

Never said the flip should be UR or downgraded, I said the toepick touch may be slightly different than posted earlier. It's the loop that was clearly under rotated.

Yulia:
3z
(PR) Right at that 180 degrees mark but nice step up into the jump
(UR) Almost none
(GOE) +1 Nice tidy jump with great flow right back into the program.

Checked her jumps from a view angles, agree for the most part. But since you mentioned a wrong edge for Rika, it should be noted that Yulia's 3Lz was pretty clearly on an inside edge, got a generous '!' call at Nationals:

Yulia 3Lz (e?)
https://youtu.be/A8bYC2YCg0E

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Checked her jumps from a view angles, agree for the most part. But since you mentioned a wrong edge for Rika, it should be noted that Yulia's 3Lz was pretty clearly on an inside edge, got a generous '!' call at Nationals:

Yulia 3Lz (e?)
https://youtu.be/A8bYC2YCg0E

Ya know...I'm so Yulia ubër that I don't think I can be taken seriously on the matter but I'd say that's a (!) and still worth (0 to +1)GOE depending on the judge. A fair Karne style judge would probably give it a -1 and that's fine but IMO it's a flat edge and the jump has more redeeming factors than bad and that is after admitting that the counter rotation is at a minimal at best

Again...I don't expect to be taken seriously.