Slow Motion Jump Editing (AKA: Sam's Jump-a-ma-tron)

[Sam-Skwantch]

Nice work on compiling these jumps! :agree: I'm doing my own analysis to see if we reach the same conclusions.

Starting with Mao, I made a 45-second video to demonstrate what I saw:

Mao Asada
3F-3Lo
https://youtu.be/pV-kubrTFOk

I think you're being lenient on the 3Lo< landing. The 3F toepick may have touched down a bit earlier than your video shows (maybe unclear?), though the 3Lo definitely touched down earlier. Mao's 3Lo barely gets 2 rotations in the air between when the toepick leaves the ice and when it touches down again. Take a look at this and let me know if you think this is "maybe under rotated" and a bad call.

Also, check out 0:18 to 0:25 on the video, I froze where the blade hits the ice, then slowly backed up a few frames and then moved forward a few frames. The blade is perfectly clear as soon as it hits the ice, as the blur of the momentum has greatly reduced at this precise second. The camera angle and clarity of this 3Lo landing is pretty amazing, IMO.

A little photo album with both our landing guesses:
http://imgur.com/a/y2d1K (#1 your 3Lo, #2 my 3Lo, #3 your 3F, #4 my 3F)

Interested in hearing your thoughts...

I guess that 3lo seems over 90 degrees...I suspect you have better resolution and FPS than I did. I think you may have not given the benefit of the doubt when you stopped the 3f on the landing because to me...that jump seems fine but the 3lo is probably worthy of the UR call. I remember actually saying I agreed with the call back during CoC and was surprised that earlier today I wasn't so sure. Still a nice jump that even with a reduced BV and loop jumps by nature are always UR more than the other jumps but in my mind it is still deserving of positive GOE in my mind if a judge felt inclined to do so :yes:

 

[sabinfire]

Ya know...I'm so Yulia ubër that I don't think I can be taken seriously on the matter but I'd say that's a (!) and still worth (0 to +1)GOE depending on the judge. A fair Karne style judge would probably give it a -1 and that's fine but IMO it's a flat edge and the jump has more redeeming factors than bad and that is after admitting that the counter rotation is at a minimal at best

Again...I don't expect to be taken seriously.

That's fair. You described Rika's 3Lz as "obvious wrong edge", but the clips you used didn't seem all that obvious to me? The camera angle wasn't ideal and I couldn't determine one way or another at 0.25 speed on YouTube. I'd say the Yulia 3Lz clip I posted here has a more pronounced inward tilt on the blade than what I'm seeing in Rika here. JMO, of course.

(I haven't looked at any footage of Rika recently yet, beyond what was already posted in this thread today.)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I seriously think Yulia should be given credit for each of her jumps and a check for $1,000 for her efforts

http://8ch.net/yulia/src/1411749759730.gif

 

[solani]

What about a jumpamatron of textbook jumps? Like Yuna's 3Lz-3T and Carolina's 3F-3T and 3L, something like that. So that everyone can see easily that height/distance is the result of good technique.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Thank you Sam for that great video! I'd second the idea of a video with textbook jumps as a nice contrast... and if that project ever happens, I'd like Liza T's 3Lz to be in too. And if any of you decide to include textbook jumps from the guys, how about Yuzu?*blatant attempt to get a new Yuzu Jumpamatron*

That's what they have been doing all this time... so what's left is her 3F - which really is reviewed all the time - while they give her the benefit of doubt for the 3T she does in combinations. I hardly find this a problem since they also give the benefit of doubt to skaters with wrong edge on flips and lutzes, and even jumps that look UR.

No, they do not (anymore). I was at the GPF and sat behind the technical panel in the LP, and they reviewed none of her jumps regarding underrotation at all, not the 3F either.
And you don't think it's a problem blatant calls are overlooked just because there are other skaters who get the same treatment? Really? Of course it is still unfair, because there are still skaters that don't get the benefit of the doubt. And it is unfair to them if others are treated more leniently, and Satoko is one of those skaters by now.

I really don't think what Satoko is doing is unfair to other skaters. I would wait to watch those other skaters skate as clean as she does before calling her scoring unfair to them. The last time a skater performed two programs as clean as she does...

But this is exactly the problem. It's not an aesthetics thing that I dislike about Satokos jumps, it's the point that her greater pre-rotation and less amplitude simply make the jumps easier to execute. Therefor, it also makes it easier to land her jumps consistently for her than it is for other skaters. You might as well say it's unfair to the other ladies they don't get to skate as clean consistently as Satoko does because they are executing more difficult jumps by the nature of their (better) technique.

Also, your points about other skaters being overscored in other areas is valid and right, IMO. But 2 wrongs don't make a right for me.

 

[ioanna]

No, they do not (anymore). I was at the GPF and sat behind the technical panel in the LP, and they reviewed none of her jumps regarding underrotation at all, not the 3F either.

Then how did she get an edge call for her 3F if they didn't look at her jumps? How did she get UR calls at Skate America and NHK Trophy?

But this is exactly the problem. It's not an aesthetics thing that I dislike about Satokos jumps, it's the point that her greater pre-rotation and less amplitude simply make the jumps easier to execute. Therefor, it also makes it easier to land her jumps consistently for her than it is for other skaters. You might as well say it's unfair to the other ladies they don't get to skate as clean consistently as Satoko does because they are executing more difficult jumps by the nature of their (better) technique.

Also, your points about other skaters being overscored in other areas is valid and right, IMO. But 2 wrongs don't make a right for me.

How do you know they are easier to execute? If you are a skater and you know what it easy and what is not then I apologize. But from what I have heard from skaters and commentators, no jumps are easy to execute no matter how they are done. In fact, Satoko's jumps are harder to execute for herself because she has to jump against her dominant direction and she has to make it work somehow. She also lacks power right now but she is working hard to fix this. So she makes up for all this by rotating with exceptional speed which is very hard to do. This is what bothers me, people claiming it's easier for her to be so consistent because her jumps are small and because she prerotates everything when in reality if you look closely only her 3F and the 3T in her 3-3 combination have "greater" prerotation problems (precisely why she's not doing 3-3 in the FS because she is aware of her problems). It is not fair for her. She is consistent because she works very hard to be consistent. She will do full run-throughs of her programs over and over again.

Furthermore, I didn't say that it's not a problem for judges to overlook errors. I was saying that a lot of people like to single Satoko out, making her the poster girl of the judges' wrongdoings when in reality she's not the only one benefiting from lenient judging or, in other skaters' cases, reputation judging.

 

[solani]

She is consistent because she works very hard to be consistent. She will do full run-throughs of her programs over and over again.

That's the point imho, she can do all those full runtroughs because her jumps are so small. Doing the jumps the way she does them causes less strain on her body and she needs lesser energy to execute them. And she has lesser risk to injure herself. And I don't say that it's easy to jump the way she does it, but it has definite advantages that we should not overlook.

 

[ioanna]

That's the point imho, she can do all those full runtroughs because her jumps are so small. Doing the jumps the way she does them causes less strain on her body and she needs lesser energy to execute them. And she has lesser risk to injure herself. And I don't say that it's easy to jump the way she does it, but it has definite advantages that we should not overlook.

I don't see those advantages and I don't think it's true that she has lesser risk to injure herself. Precisely because she spends a short time in the air she most rotate with great speed and I personally find that just as dangerous as skaters who spend more time in the air but with a slower rotation speed. She had a major ankle injury last season and skated with that injury at 4CC and Worlds. She probably gets other minor injuries too just like everyone else. We don't know.

 

[solani]

I don't see those advantages and I don't think it's true that she has lesser risk to injure herself. Precisely because she spends a short time in the air she most rotate with great speed and I personally find that just as dangerous as skaters who spend more time in the air but with a slower rotation speed. She had a major ankle injury last season and skated with that injury at 4CC and Worlds. She probably gets other minor injuries too just like everyone else. We don't know.

It's rather simple to me - when you jump higher you fall deeper. This makes more pressure on the landing. Everytime you land a jump.
It's possibly true that she's taking a different risk because of her fast rotation and the fact that she never fully rotates her jumps in the air (clear backward landing). So when she lands her jumps she still rotates (what she shouldn't do ideally) and that very likely causes additional strain on her knee, hip and ankle. But I don't think that it's necessarily more than any other skater who doesn't fully rotates a jump.
But when she fully rotates a jump on the landing there's no doubt in my mind that she has less strain on her body than a skater with higher jumps.

 

[ioanna]

Thoughts on Elena Radionova's 3T in her 3Lz-3T combination?
Video

 

[ioanna]

But when she fully rotates a jump on the landing there's no doubt in my mind that she has less strain on her body than a skater with higher jumps.

To be honest, looking at the other ladies (excluding Medvedeva and Radionova), the lack of consistency is simply because of psychological reasons. Medvedeva and Radionova, especially Radionova, has managed to stay consistent for two seasons with her bigger jumps. So I still think the amplitude of the jump has little to nothing to do with consistency.

 

[solani]

To be honest, looking at the other ladies (excluding Medvedeva and Radionova), the lack of consistency is simply because of psychological reasons. Medvedeva and Radionova, especially Radionova, has managed to stay consistent for two seasons with her bigger jumps. So I still think the amplitude of the jump has little to nothing to do with consistency.

I still think it's a major factor. She needs less energy to jump, therefore she can do more full runthroughs in training and she needs less energy to do her programs in competition. So she's also got more energy at the end of her programs and that must help with consistency.
I accept your opinion, but I won't change mine.

Thoughts on Elena Radionova's 3T in her 3Lz-3T combination?
Video

Regarding pre-rotation? Not as good as it could be, but ok imo.

 

[sabinfire]

https://youtu.be/1wELSA51fWM
Rika:
3f-3t
(PR) Good on both take offs
(UR) Clean on the flip but the 3t was a bit eeked out.
(GOE) zero

I think the 3T landing on the back-end might've been sooner. 3T touched the ice here:

http://i.imgur.com/vkP0tPu.jpg

Then she hooked 180 degrees to this position:

http://i.imgur.com/r2wJHK2.jpg

Probably should be <

 

[Nagval]

Yulenka is the Best! :3

 

[OniBan]

That's the point imho, she can do all those full runtroughs because her jumps are so small. Doing the jumps the way she does them causes less strain on her body and she needs lesser energy to execute them. And she has lesser risk to injure herself. And I don't say that it's easy to jump the way she does it, but it has definite advantages that we should not overlook.

O_O Satoko imo is pretty much disadvantageous in this sport, physical-wise, esp in regards to her jumps - to suggest she has 'definite advantages' is kinda ...what??? I rather think it's actually even harder for her to jump - had it been easy people wouldn't be making videos of her, nitpicking on her tiny jumps and leaving nasty comments on Youtube.
Keep in mind that Satoko also have larger ice coverage in her programs than some 'bigger' skaters - so I'd say that's actually more taxing on her when she does full run-throughs, since she's smaller and had to cover more ground

Getting back to the Jumpamatron - Sam - is it possible to have a slow-mo of Ashley's first jumping pass for her SP in Skate Canada?

 

[solani]

O_O Satoko imo is pretty much disadvantageous in this sport, physical-wise, esp in regards to her jumps - to suggest she has 'definite advantages' is kinda ...what??? I rather think it's actually even harder for her to jump - had it been easy people wouldn't be making videos of her, nitpicking on her tiny jumps and leaving nasty comments on Youtube.
Keep in mind that Satoko also have larger ice coverage in her programs than some 'bigger' skaters - so I'd say that's actually more taxing on her when she does full run-throughs, since she's smaller and had to cover more ground

I never said that Satoko has physical advantages, but her technique has advantages when her jumps are judged like they are judged now. I hope that this won't stay this way, because if it does coaches will start to teach Satoko's technique to their students. Because of those obvious advantages.

 

[largeman]

What about a jumpamatron of textbook jumps? Like Yuna's 3Lz-3T and Carolina's 3F-3T and 3L, something like that. So that everyone can see easily that height/distance is the result of good technique.

Yeah! Those "power takeoffs" are a sight to behold. When Frank Carroll said "all jumps are prerotated," he probably hadn't met Carolina Kostner.

 

[petitebrie]

Not sure if anyone's interested/this is relevant, but I'll post anyway:

The "big jumpers" like Carolina, Liza and Yuna have next to no prerotation on flip/Lutz jumps, but most of them do take off forwards on the toe loop after pivoting >90 degrees on the toe pick, so this amount of PR is probably inevitable/totally normal. I was bored the other night and 0.25x-ed videos for like four hours, and I did some investigating on their 3T (including Adelina since she also has a huge, high-quality 3T) and they generally take off forwards. Look at Carolina (from this video), Liza example one and two (from the slow-mo replays here) and Adelina example one and two (aaaand I just realised this was a 2T, but the mechanism is similar) (sources here and here). Yuna is the anomaly who leaves the ice sideways relative to her trajectory (freeze frame from this video).

 

[ioanna]

Not sure if anyone's interested/this is relevant, but I'll post anyway:

The "big jumpers" like Carolina, Liza and Yuna have next to no prerotation on flip/Lutz jumps, but most of them do take off forwards on the toe loop after pivoting >90 degrees on the toe pick, so this amount of PR is probably inevitable/totally normal. I was bored the other night and 0.25x-ed videos for like four hours, and I did some investigating on their 3T (including Adelina since she also has a huge, high-quality 3T) and they generally take off forwards. Look at Carolina (from this video), Liza example one and two (from the slow-mo replays here) and Adelina example one and two (aaaand I just realised this was a 2T, but the mechanism is similar) (sources here and here). Yuna is the anomaly who leaves the ice sideways relative to her trajectory (freeze frame from this video).

Thank you for taking your time to do all this. Wow, Yuna's textbook jumps are indeed textbook. The other ladies, as I expected, all have PR on their toeloops becase it's natural. They don't go into the second jump of the combination with the same speed and/or power they go into the first jump, just my thoughts.

 

[petitebrie]

Thank you for taking your time to do all this. Wow, Yuna's textbook jumps are indeed textbook. The other ladies, as I expected, all have PR on their toeloops becase it's natural. They don't go into the second jump of the combination with the same speed and/or power they go into the first jump, just my thoughts.

Lucky for us, Carolina, Adelina and Liza all have very good 3T+3T combinations so we can compare. The first jump seems to have the same mechanism of pivoting and "stepping" into the air, but looks less prerotated than the second jump by a quarter or so.

Liza at Worlds 2015
Adelina at 2015 Russian Nationals
Carolina at 2012 WTT

Yuna did one at Junior Worlds in 2005, but the quality of the video is bad. She has a different entry than the other ladies here though, from an inside three turn, whereas the ladies above do outside three turn and step. The second jump at least seems to have the same technique as later in her career: https://youtu.be/v4DVPCbs8LE?t=4m12s