"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[JayW]

I guess since she starts picking sideways at nearly 90 degrees I can see how some people would say this is a 270 PR. To me though...she only spins on the toe pick under 180 degrees and in relation to her final trajectory out of the jump I'm still inclined to say it's about 2.5 rotations which is acceptable to me. I'm willing to overlook some PR...maybe even a lot...if the landing is clean and the air position is good. Honestly the way Zhenia comes in on a curved edge is quite beautiful and I find the tracings on the ice very fascinating. Like a high diver who makes a minimal splash.

I understand this is just my opinion but it shows how even some TES stuff can become subjective amongst fans and likely members of the TP.

Hi Sam,

Thank you for the video, it is awesome. I agree with you on this, the exit curve of the first triple is a beauty, and shouldn't be considered as a part of PR for the triple toe.

However, I am not sure about this:
https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=48 left foot leaving from ice
https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=51 right foot landing on ice

Does that make it 270 degree less from a full rotation?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Alrighty, then! The ISU handbook, which sets the rules, doesn't have any idea what it's talking about.

There are factually no specifics in the ISU handbook that define jump rotation: where a jump is supposed to be considered as started, when it is to be considered as landed, how much rotation in total is supposed to be the correct amount, and various other mechanics of jumping. It only says "jumps that lack more than 1/4 rotation will be called underrotated and jumps that lack 1/2 or more will be fully downgraded."

And the ISU has been in the wrong many times before, so don't be too surprised. It is a convoluted and self-serving governing body, not a primary source of insight.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hi Sam,

Thank you for the video, it is awesome. I agree with you on this, the exit curve of the first triple is a beauty, and shouldn't be considered as a part of PR for the triple toe.

However, I am not sure about this:
https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=48 left foot leaving from ice
https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=51 right foot landing on ice

Does that make it 270 degree less from a full rotation?

It's a very good question. I actually think it looks good and even though she turns a bit on the ice it's not like she is turning on the toe pick to exit but instead she lands in a deep edge that curves out of the jump very nicely. But yes...she probably completes a good 90 degrees while making that edge out and in addition just under 180 degrees on the toe pick so I can see an argument for a call to be made but I'd feel comfortable calling this good if I were in the TP and confident enough in the merit of this jump.

I actually think Zhenia has the best 3-3 of the last group although Lena has the best Lutz technique.

I'm starting to think I need to do a Gabby Daleman jumpamatron. :think:

 

[Moxiejan]

There are factually no specifics in the ISU handbook that define jump rotation: where a jump is supposed to be considered as started, when it is to be considered as landed ...

The ISU handbook I referenced is specifically designed to set forth deductions and GOE in competitions; as such, it is an addendum to all other ISU publications that define skating terms. Much as it does not define a mohawk or 3-turn, it also does not explicitly say that a single jump is 360 degrees, double is 720, etc. (with axel .5 or 180 more); anyone with enough skating knowledge to be reading the tech manual would not need the duh-ness of that information.

.... how much rotation in total is supposed to be the correct amount, and various other mechanics of jumping. It only says "jumps that lack more than 1/4 rotation will be called underrotated and jumps that lack 1/2 or more will be fully downgraded."

Well, saying that lacking 1/4 is underrotated and 1/2 or more is downgraded ... would indeed be saying how much rotation in total is supposed to be the correct amount. The tech handbook also is quite specific on other mechanics, such as correct takeoff edge/foot, correct landing edge/foot, how much of a takeoff causes a jump to be counted in an aborted attempt (even if the skater doesn't leave the ice), etc.

And the ISU has been in the wrong many times before, so don't be too surprised. It is a convoluted and self-serving governing body, not a primary source of insight.

Yes, it might be convoluted and self-serving. But it also is indeed a primary source of insight, since it is indeed the governing body that sets the rules.

 

[solani]

I want to add that the ISU designed the new judging system after the Olympics in 2002. This might explain why certain things regarding jumps and prerotation aren't as specific as we would want them to be, just remember who won Gold in the ladies event in 2002. I'm certain that the ISU "tested" CoP on past competitions and they would have made sure that they got the same outcome. And the ISU certainly wanted and wants the ladies to do 3-3's, because the competitions should be exciting to watch. How do you make more ladies go for 3-3's? Simple - give much more points for triples than for doubles and make it easy to get triples ratified. And remember the jumps Sarah Hughes got ratified in 2002. For me this was a definite low point in the 6.0 era and it made certain that I don't really miss the system.

 

[Meoima]

^ With regards to Yu-Na's lutz, however, she does have very little pre-rotation. Lutz and Flip are the most wide-ranging jumps when it comes to how much pre-rotation is "right" for those jumps. You can turn to forward on your toepick and that's fine. But, less pre-rotation is ideal, as that is what makes the jump look fullest in the air and technically it's what generates the most power. You don't want to have no pre-rotation whatsoever, though, because it usually just forces you to do too much work for no reason. Hanyu does his Lutz like that and I'm 99% sure that's why it has given him a relatively higher amount of trouble over the years.

I wonder why Yuzuru keeps going for that "no pre rotation on the lutz" (his flip also has no pre rotation at all as well)? Why that much work and makes it harder for you to land the jump? Why Orser hasn't told him to does lutz like everyone else?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, saying that lacking 1/4 is underrotated and 1/2 or more is downgraded ... would indeed be saying how much rotation in total is supposed to be the correct amount.

It doesn't, since there's no total amount set. "1/4" of what exactly? "1/2" of what exactly? Triple jumps aren't 3 full rotations in the air and every jump exists within a circle. Change the starting degree at any point within a circle and you have to go that much further around to trace it 3 times. Everything is relative and there are no specifications from ISU about how to measure.

Yes, it might be convoluted and self-serving. But it also is indeed a primary source of insight, since it is indeed the governing body that sets the rules.

No. If you want insight on this matter listen to people who are actually involved with it (the same as listening to scientists over politicians when it comes to specific details; a "governing body" is there to enact policies with the info they have been given). Yesterday you were trying to tell us that a Triple Loop shouldn't pre-rotate much and it's wrong for it to leave the ice forward, when that is in fact the correct technique. Any decent coach these days knows this. Not sure where you get your ideas about skating from but they aren't correct on this matter, so please stop confusing people with your incorrect information.

----

I wonder why Yuzuru keeps going for that "no pre rotation on the lutz" (his flip also has no pre rotation at all as well)? Why that much work and makes it harder for you to land the jump? Why Orser hasn't told him to does lutz like everyone else?

Not sure why they haven't tweaked his technique. This is the technique that comes natural to him, though, and he's doing the jumps on the correct edges and usually with good quality, so perhaps it's not been something worth worrying about in comparison to every other area of improvement.

 

[gkelly]

How do you make more ladies go for 3-3's? Simple - give much more points for triples than for doubles and make it easy to get triples ratified.

Well, obviously triples should be worth more points than doubles, all else being equal. Where there's room for disagreement is at what point underrotated triples should not count as triples at all, and how many extra points good jumps should earn for good quality (+GOE) or lose for bad quality while still meeting the definition of the jump (-GOE).

At the beginning of IJS, skaters lost a lot of points for underrotated jumps -- anything over 90 degrees short of rotation, and the attempted triple was called as a double, or later called as a downgraded triple.

Under 2005 or even 2010 rules, Sarah Hughes would have gotten no more credit for some of her 2002 triples than she would have for a double. By 2016 rules, some of those would at least be worth 70% of a triple (or 50% for the lutz if called as 3Lze<).

It wasn't until 2010-11 IIRC that the distinction between 90-180 degrees underrotated < symbol and 70% base value was introduced as opposed to the full downgrade << for over 180 degrees short with base value of a full revolution fewer.

So within the past 5 years only it is possible to get some credit for a triple that's not quite around, but up to 180 degrees short. There is still a loss of base value compared to a fully rotated triple, and expected loss of GOE (although in the past 2 years it's no longer required for the final GOE to be negative).

The other rule that has encouraged ladies to work on their triple-triples, and that also has increased the popularity of 2A+3T combinations, is the limit that ladies only get 7 jumping passes in their free skates, and they must include some kind of axel jump.

As of 2002, it was pretty common for ladies to plan 7 triples and a double axel in 8 jumping passes, with no jumping pass more difficult than 3Lz+2T. Under IJS rules, that isn't legal. So for a while at the beginning of IJS 7-triple programs became less common, until more skaters mastered the ability to combine two difficult jumps in the same jump pass. The rule change that allowed full credit for two difficult jumps connected by a half loop, instead of discounting their base value to 80% by calling it a sequence, also helped.

 

[Moxiejan]

Yesterday you were trying to tell us that a Triple Loop shouldn't pre-rotate much and it's wrong for it to leave the ice forward, when that is in fact the correct technique. Any decent coach these days knows this. Not sure where you get your ideas about skating from but they aren't correct on this matter, so please stop confusing people with your incorrect information.

What "decent coach" ever said that the correct technique for a loop, which (for a right-handed skater) is defined as taking off from a right back outside edge, is for it to instead take off forward? Link, please.

Really, if the "correct technique" was to spin the skating foot forward and take off from the pick, why would there be any difference between a loop or a salchow or even an axel? If a flip or lutz also spins the skating foot forward into a pick takeoff, why is there so much emphasis on clear edge, flutz, lip, (e) and (!)? The whole system of giving jumps different point values for difficulty is based on the fact that some correct takeoffs are more difficult than others.

Again, Page 23 of the ISU Technical Handbook states: "A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

 

[Blades of Passion]

What "decent coach" ever said that the correct technique for a loop is [blah blah blah]

Since you have no idea what you're talking about, I would suggest starting here for a better understanding of jump technique - http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/

Really, if the "correct technique" was to spin the skating foot forward and take off from the pick, why would there be any difference between a loop or a salchow or even an axel?

They take off from different feet and edges, with different mechanics of inherent momentum and weight transfer.

Miyahara deserves downgrades on all her toe jumps.

Well, her 2Axel+3Toe has historically been better. When she started trying to do it at the end of programs, though, that's when it got rough; and it has carried into her earlier attempts at it in the program this season too. Cheated at Worlds, 4CC, and the GPF. You can see how the one she did at Nationals this season was better.

 

[Moxiejan]

Since you have no idea what you're talking about, I would suggest starting here for a better understanding of jump technique - http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/.

Wow. Your idea of a "decent coach" is guy (Trevor Laak) whose key pursuit seems to be promoting his own videos of "secret" advice (which mostly is to ignore what other coaches are saying). Exactly which elite skaters has he coached?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nothing is being sold. It's free and you can download it here - http://skatingjumpsecrets.com/blog/the-jump-manual/

This is universally how jumps are taught now and it's not just some new thing either. This is simply how jumps have worked ever since they've existed (certainly for Loop, Sal, Toeloop) and it came to be more and more understood and widely realized. Look at the first 3Loop ever from Dick Button and you will see he does a half-turn on the takeoff. Same for this 3Axel from David Jenkins all the way back in the 1950's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI. Or just look at most any 3Loop from most any skater across any era and you will see the half-turn on the ice. When people don't naturally do that turn, it has always lead to mechanical issues with the jump.

 

[Mirai Ahbell]

I don't see how Miyahara can get positive GOEs on her jumps.
All of her jumps should get the following nagative aspects to start.
She needs at least 5 positive aspects to get positive GOEs over these errors.

Lacking rotation (no sign)
Poor height
Poor take-off

 

[Moxiejan]

Nothing is being sold. It's free and you can download it here - http://skatingjumpsecrets.com/blog/the-jump-manual/

I said promoted; not the same thing as sold.

his is universally how jumps are taught now and it's not just some new thing either.

If that's the case, why is this described as a "secret" technique that's different from what coaches are teaching?

This is simply how jumps have worked ever since they've existed (certainly for Loop, Sal, Toeloop) and it came to be more and more understood and widely realized. Look at the first 3Loop ever from Dick Button and you will see he does a half-turn on the takeoff. Same for this 3Axel from David Jenkins all the way back in the 1950's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI. Or just look at most any 3Loop from most any skater across any era and you will see the half-turn on the ice. When people don't naturally do that turn, it has always lead to mechanical issues with the jump.

What you are saying is that although this is "widely realized," the ISU tech handbook continues to require a downgrade (and not just a UR) for a backward-edge jump that takes off forward (1/2 short of rotation). Did it ever occur to you that the long-ago jumps you mentioned were all filmed at a distance and you weren't able to see the exact moment of takeofff (and certainly not the ice tracings)? Have you ever considered that when the skating foot left the ice (at the allowable 1/4 turn) the continuation in rotation was actually taking place as the skater was rising above the ice? Yes, at this point it might have been only 1/2 inch or so above the ice, rising to the jump's full height by revolution 2. But, absent a video closeup of the skating foot on takeoff, it's impossible to say that these were taken off forward.

 

[ioanna]

I don't see how Miyahara can get positive GOEs on her jumps.
All of her jumps should get the following nagative aspects to start.
She needs at least 5 positive aspects to get positive GOEs over these errors.

Lacking rotation (no sign)
Poor height
Poor take-off

No, she needs 2 of the 8 bullet points to get +1 GOE for a jump, which is what she's getting most of the time.

 

[Mirai Ahbell]

No, she needs 2 of the 8 bullet points to get +1 GOE for a jump, which is what she's getting most of the time.

If there is no nagative aspects on her jumps you are right.
But she has 3 negative aspects below on pretty much all the jumps to begin with.
Therefore I think she needs 5 positive aspects to make up these nagative aspects in order to receive a positive GOE.

Lacking rotation (no sign)
Poor height
Poor take-off

That's exactly why I say I don't understand why she can get positive GOEs on her jumps.

 

[ioanna]

If there is no nagative aspects on her jumps you are right.
But she has 3 negative aspects below on pretty much all the jumps to begin with.
Therefore I think she needs 5 positive aspects to make up these nagative aspects in order to receive a positive GOE.

Lacking rotation (no sign)
Poor height
Poor take-off

That's exactly why I say I don't understand why she can get positive GOEs on her jumps.

1. When she underrotates, she gets called for it. When she doesn't underrotate, she doesn't get called.
2. In the current rules, poor take-off means wrong edge. If you are talking about prerotations, most ladies prerotate and we don't know how much is too much. Her edge jumps look fine to me so "all of her jumps" doesn't apply.
3. Height is one of the 8 GOE bullet points. She probably gets the bullet for good flow in and out, which she does have, imo.
4. Her PCS are excessively low compared to the rest of the top field and I believe this is the judges' way of punishing her for her jump technique. Since she hits at least 2 bullets to receive +GOE, the judges are taking the liberty to underscore her in PCS.
5. The final result is still the same result she would get with what is considered to be fair TES and PCS.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If that's the case, why is this described as a "secret" technique that's different from what coaches are teaching?

That website was started in 2007, so at the time it was much less commonly understood. Have you ever done a Triple jump yourself?

What you are saying is that although this is "widely realized," the ISU tech handbook continues to require a downgrade (and not just a UR) for a backward-edge jump that takes off forward (1/2 short of rotation). Did it ever occur to you that the long-ago jumps you mentioned were all filmed at a distance and you weren't able to see the exact moment of takeofff (and certainly not the ice tracings)?

I have no problem seeing the takeoff point here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI - nor do other savvy viewers. The same can be said of thousands of other jumps over the course of history that you can watch; there are plenty with clear angles out there. People commonly pre-rotate 1/2 turn on jumps. That's just how it works, it's a natural way of jumping, and it needs to be addressed by the ISU and taken into consideration with training tech panels in how to measure jump rotation. The ISU handbook is unclear/outdated. The rule of "forward takeoff" being a deduction relates to turning to forwards with the actual skating foot on toepick jumps.

In the current rules, poor take-off means wrong edge.

Things like bending far forward or awkward toepicking technique are also part of that -GOE clause.

Anyway, it's silly to say Miyahara always gets called out on her underrotations and that we don't how much pre-rotation is "too much". It's a pretty easy standard to set, by looking at jumps throughout history and how the mechanics work. 1/2 turn of pre-rotation should be acceptable and more than that should be viewed as too much and taken into account when determining the proper landing point.

I do think Miyahara has been underscored on PCS many times, but those jumps have issues. Let's look at one of my favorite performances of hers, for instance:

Satako Miyahara, 2013 NHK SP, Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

A beautiful program (her best ever for me), great skating skills. Totally ridiculous low PCS she received. However, look at the replays of her 3Lutz+3Toe, starting at 5:10, and Nicky Slater's comments. She goes way past the normal amount of pre-rotation on the takeoff and in this particular instance her 3Toe landing is such that she didn't even quite turn 2 times in the air. So that jump should have received a << call. I haven't seen any of her toeloops be that lacking in the past couple seasons, but the cheated takeoffs are still there and she's often not getting the < call that is deserved.

 

[ioanna]

Anyway, it's silly to say Miyahara always gets called out on her underrotations

Just as silly to say she underrotates all of her jumps, every time, which is what the user above and many others love to say.

and that we don't how much pre-rotation is "too much". It's a pretty easy standard to set, by looking at jumps throughout history and how the mechanics work. 1/2 turn of pre-rotation should be acceptable and more than that should be viewed as too much and taken into account when determining the proper landing point.

What I meant was that the current rules don't specify how much is too much and when too much is enough to decrease the value of that jump. I am aware that Miyahara's toe jumps are prerotated, especially the 3T in combination but I think her 3Lz is getting to an acceptable level(1/2 turn)

I do think Miyahara has been underscored on PCS many times, but those jumps have issues. Let's look at one of my favorite performances of hers, for instance:

Satako Miyahara, 2013 NHK SP, Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

A beautiful program (her best ever for me), great skating skills. Totally ridiculous low PCS she received. However, look at the replays of her 3Lutz+3Toe, starting at 5:10, and Nicky Slater's comments. She goes way past the normal amount of pre-rotation on the takeoff and in this particular instance her 3Toe landing is such that she didn't even quite turn 2 times in the air. So that jump should have received a << call. I haven't seen any of her toeloops be that lacking in the past couple seasons, but the cheated takeoffs are still there and she's often not getting the < call that is deserved.

I've seen dozens of "jumpamatrons" dedicated to her and I'm glad you noted that her toeloops haven't been that lacking in the past couple of seasons which means she is aware of her problem and has been working to fix it. It's the reason why her 3-3 isn't included in the FS and her team came up with something that can be to her advantage two 2A-3T combinations. Most people here love to assume things and say she will never fix her issues because she doesn't get the < she deserves. She doesn't but then she doesn't get the PCS she deserves either. Since TES and PCS are often tied together for most skaters (though they shouldn't be), I personally see her low PCS as a message from the judges that they don't approve of her technique. The sad thing is that most people here can't get past the shortcomings of the judging system and enjoy the rest of her skating. "She cheats, she's overscored, she doesn't have a 3-3 in the FS, I don't understand why she's jumping two 2A-3T combos boo I will never enjoy her skating".

 

[solani]

Just a thought: Could Satoko try to jump in both directions? What kind of combos could she go for? Could she possibly do something like 3F-2Lz? Wouldn't that be great?