"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies | Page 10 | Golden Skate

"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

Sam-Skwantch

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I actually thought Zhenia's was worse than Ashley's, but Satoko's was ridiculous. With Ashley in the LP (this shows SP), I kept looking at her opening combo & couldn't figure out the underrotation deduction, but maybe it was for the toe loop takeoff and not the landing?

Well going by the starting point of toe pick leaving the ice to when the blade comes back down (just my method for better or for worse) which is the places I paused the video....Zhenia seems to be the only skater in this video not taking off at or over 180 degrees. She's probably right around 130'ish degrees :laugh:

I literally went frame by frame until it looked like the skaters jumped and when they landed to select the pause points. Obviously not a full proof technique and vulnerable to the angle and things like that but I still think it helps add to the discussion in some level.
 
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Moxiejan

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I'm wondering if the torque of a triple jump landing makes it almost impossible to add triple toe loop without the pre-rotation & if the TP mostly just looks for it on the takeoff of the opening jump in the combo.
 

4everchan

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yeah.... can we see example of clean ones ???
I'm wondering if the torque of a triple jump landing makes it almost impossible to add triple toe loop without the pre-rotation & if the TP mostly just looks for it on the takeoff of the opening jump in the combo.
 

formersk8ter

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Dear lord!!! :popcorn:

So no one really commented on the video I made regarding PreRotated toe loops. Strange because the reason I made the video was a direct result of a discussion in this thread but maybe I was mistaken or something.

FWIW: The ISU judges didn't downgrade any of these combo's which all have a bit of forward takeoff and some even more than forward.

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA

Here is how I rank the skaters based on PreRotation from most to least.

Zhenia....just under halfway.
Anna...just about halfway.
Ashley...over halfway
Satoko....over 270

Thoughts?

I've just started viewing your slo-mo videos and they are great!

Just curious (and sorry if this has been discussed before), but are the men prerotating like so many of these ladies do?
 

largeman

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Well going by the starting point of toe pick leaving the ice to when the blade comes back down (just my method for better or for worse) which is the places I paused the video....Zhenia seems to be the only skater in this video not taking off at or over 180 degrees. She's probably right around 130'ish degrees :laugh:

I literally went frame by frame until it looked like the skaters jumped and when they landed to select the pause points. Obviously not a full proof technique and vulnerable to the angle and things like that but I still think it helps add to the discussion in some level.

First of all, Sam your video is brilliant as always :thumbsup: and definitely adds to the discussion.

Re: Zhenya's takeoff, you have to look at the point her left toe pick leaves the ice (your second pause point, at 0:47 in the video) in relation to the skating direction of her right foot at the very start of the jump (at 0:42 in the video). You'll see that at 0:47 when she takes off, her left foot is more or less perpendicular to the ice tracing of the aforementioned skating direction. Which means it's way past 180 degrees and in the 270 degrees territory, and a bit worse compared to Ashley's takeoff.

Her landing here, however, is very backwards and cleaner than Ashley's or Satoko's.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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First of all, Sam your video is brilliant as always :thumbsup: and definitely adds to the discussion.

Re: Zhenya's takeoff, you have to look at the point her left toe pick leaves the ice (your second pause point, at 0:47 in the video) in relation to the skating direction of her right foot at the very start of the jump (at 0:42 in the video). You'll see that at 0:47 when she takes off, her left foot is more or less perpendicular to the ice tracing of the aforementioned skating direction. Which means it's way past 180 degrees and in the 270 degrees territory, and a bit worse compared to Ashley's takeoff.

Her landing here, however, is very backwards and cleaner than Ashley's or Satoko's.

I guess since she starts picking sideways at nearly 90 degrees I can see how some people would say this is a 270 PR. To me though...she only spins on the toe pick under 180 degrees and in relation to her final trajectory out of the jump I'm still inclined to say it's about 2.5 rotations which is acceptable to me. I'm willing to overlook some PR...maybe even a lot...if the landing is clean and the air position is good. Honestly the way Zhenia comes in on a curved edge is quite beautiful and I find the tracings on the ice very fascinating. Like a high diver who makes a minimal splash.

I understand this is just my opinion but it shows how even some TES stuff can become subjective amongst fans and likely members of the TP.
 
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Blades of Passion

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Page 23 of the ISU Technical Handbook states: "A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

So, don't take my word for it that forward takeoffs are incorrect (except for axels); the ISU has decreed it.
And, no, loops and salchows don't need a straight takeoff. They need a slightly curved takeoff. Jumps are done from edges. They are not done from flats.

Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about (the ISU handbook doesn't really either, about all of these specifics).

Being in line for a takeoff on an edge jump has nothing to do with flats, and "edge jumps" should all hit the toepick at the end of the takeoff, they don't actually leave the ice solely from the edge itself. For the Loop and Salchow you want a half turn on the ice as you takeoff. Doing less (at least for a Triple or higher) is just going to make you prone to harmful misalignment of the hip. That's why someone like Kurt Browning was so much less consistent and more prone to injury back then, these techniques hadn't yet been refined.

For the axel you want at least 1/4 turn prerotation and up to 1/2 is fine too, hitting the toepick at the end of the takeoff. Again, people also tried to do "clean edge" axels in the past and it resulted in jumps that more frequently will throw you off your center (although they can look great when done right, like Jeremy Abbott's 3Axels he used to do with that technique).

The rulebook is just stating that a turn to forwards on the skating foot (not toepick foot) of toepick jumps is invalid, and for edge jumps you need to stay on the correct edge, rather than turning the opposite direction to a different edge and then jumping.

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA

Here is how I rank the skaters based on PreRotation from most to least.

Zhenia....just under halfway.
Anna...just about halfway.
Ashley...over halfway
Satoko....over 270

Thoughts?

Evengenia is 270 degrees pre-rotation or very nearly, look at where the first jump lands, the back of the skate pointing at the side board, and then by the time she leaves the ice the toepick is facing the board at the other end of the rink.

Satako is 270 degrees pre-rotation (sometimes she does even a bit more); on that jump in particular you didn't have a good angle and froze the image too late when she was already in the air. She doesn't land completely backwards, though, which you need to be doing when you are pre-rotating 270 degrees. That's why the jump should have been called as underrotated.

Ashley is 180 degrees or just ever so slightly past that amount, usually she is 270 degrees (or nearly), so this made me very happy to see from her last week.

Anna is 180 degrees.

How's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq-9SxjkLw0

No rotation done on the toe pick on the ice. At all.

Yu-Na pre-rotates her toeloop more than 1/4 of a turn. Pretty much everyone does (and everyone pre-rotates 1/4 at the very least). Dasikuke Takahashi would sometimes only pre-rotate 1/4 turn on his toeloop (and pretty much always less than 1/2) and it would get him into trouble with tech panels because they wouldn't pay attention to how he was starting the rotation earlier; they would just dock him on the landing point.
 
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hurrah

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How's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq-9SxjkLw0

No rotation done on the toe pick on the ice. At all.

Plenty more where that came from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNFmUCUHCdM :laugh:

Looking at Yuna's jumps, almost no pre-rotation whatsoever!! She crashes that toe pick into the ice to elevate and up she goes! But iffy edges on the flip for sure.

Evgenia is 270 degrees, as is Satoko. Ashley 180 and Anna nearly 180.

Actually, even with Yuna, she doesn't pre-rotate on the ice but her toe pick is still facing nearly fully forward when she takes-off, so I think up to 180 degrees pre-rotation has to be considered acceptable. Skaters who use that 180 degree leeway to pre-rotate on the ice will simply have smaller jumps and less flow out of the jump.
 
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solani

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You seem really, really confused about what you're talking about. We know there is no measuring of shoulders/torso/head for determining jump rotation.

Yes, the FEET are entirely the point here. Looking at the feet throughout the entire takeoff, and then the landing foot, to determine rotation. This is in contrast to your idea of looking at the feet at the beginning of takeoff only (or ignoring the toepick foot, whichever you were trying to argue) and then looking at the landing.
When the tech panel recognize a toe axel they obviously look at the entire body. It's the only time they penalize prerotation anyway, so we shouldn't forget about it.

As mentioned before, I think the toeloops of all four ladies are fine. I'd have Ashley's and Anna's below 180 degrees and Satoko's and Evgenia's at about 180 degrees prerotation. I like Anna's best because it's bigger than average and she rotates it on the landing. I don't really like Satoko's, just because it's tiny and I don't really like them rotating so fast in the air. Looks stressful.
 

Blades of Passion

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^ With regards to Yu-Na's lutz, however, she does have very little pre-rotation. Lutz and Flip are the most wide-ranging jumps when it comes to how much pre-rotation is "right" for those jumps. You can turn to forward on your toepick and that's fine. But, less pre-rotation is ideal, as that is what makes the jump look fullest in the air and technically it's what generates the most power. You don't want to have no pre-rotation whatsoever, though, because it usually just forces you to do too much work for no reason. Hanyu does his Lutz like that and I'm 99% sure that's why it has given him a relatively higher amount of trouble over the years.

As mentioned before, I think the toeloops of all four ladies are fine. I don't really like Satoko's, just because it's tiny and I don't really like them rotating so fast in the air. Looks stressful.

Well, besides being tiny, Satako's toeloop rotates less than 2.25 turns in the air. So that's not "fine" to me. Any other skater who does a proper takeoff and then rotates less than 2.25 times in the air gets an underrotation call for it.
 
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hurrah

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^ With regards to Yu-Na's lutz, however, she does have very little pre-rotation. Lutz and Flip are the most wide-ranging jumps when it comes to how much pre-rotation is "right" for those jumps. You can turn to forward on your toepick and that's fine. But, less pre-rotation is ideal, as that is what makes the jump look fullest in the air and technically it's what generates the most power. You don't want to have no pre-rotation whatsoever, though, that is usually just forcing you to do too much work for no reason. Hanyu does his Lutz like that and I'm 99% sure that's why it has given him a relatively higher amount of trouble over the years.

Having no pre-rotation on your toe jumps does, I think, lead to bigger jumps and should awarded better, but I think there is one major drawback from the point of view of the athlete and longevity, which is that you are likely to be more prone to injury in your 'picking' toe and your toe pick leg than if you use your other skating leg to manage some of the weight and pressure. Yuna broke her metarsal bone, remember? It also probably leads to bigger crashes like the ones that Anna does when she's off because the takeoff is going to be less controlled. Posters always talk about how Gracie Gold's jumps are smaller, but I often think that she is better off with smaller jumps because she probably couldn't have sustained the previous jump without breaking a bone.
 

hurrah

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Well, besides being tiny, Satako's toeloop rotates less than 2.25 turns in the air. So that's not "fine" to me. Any other skater who does a proper takeoff and then rotates less than 2.25 times in the air gets an underrotation call for it.

Yeah, like Mao!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLHt8fsEwG4 (Well, this one was slightly less than 2.25, but there have been plenty of ones where it was 2.25 or more. And her jumps are bigger and have better speed in and out as well.)
 
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solani

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^ With regards to Yu-Na's lutz, however, she does have very little pre-rotation. Lutz and Flip are the most wide-ranging jumps when it comes to how much pre-rotation is "right" for those jumps. You can turn to forward on your toepick and that's fine. But, less pre-rotation is ideal, as that is what makes the jump look fullest in the air and technically it's what generates the most power. You don't want to have no pre-rotation whatsoever, though, because it usually just forces you to do too much work for no reason. Hanyu does his Lutz like that and I'm 99% sure that's why it has given him a relatively higher amount of trouble over the years.



Well, besides being tiny, Satako's toeloop rotates less than 2.25 turns in the air. So that's not "fine" to me. Any other skater who does a proper takeoff and then rotates less than 2.25 times in the air gets an underrotation call for it.
I fully agree with you on Yuna's and Hanyu's lutz.
And I don't think that Satoko's flip and lutz are ok by any means, but I give her that toeloop. We all know that the only triple with 3 rotations in the air is the axel, that's also a reason why it's the most difficult one. The most prerotation is allowed for the toeloop and it's the easiest jump also because of that. Satoko is often about 1/4 rotation short on the landing and she gets the benefit of the doubt for the take-off.
The jumping technique has evolved in the last couple of years because of CoP. A casual viewer might think that the ladies 10 or 20 years ago were mediocre jumpers compared to the ladies nowadays, because they weren't doing so many 3-3's. We all know that this isn't true. The Tara Lipinski's and Sarah Hughes' of this World have shown the way. It's quantity over quality (although I still think that Tara's jumps looked exceptionally nice!)
 

Blades of Passion

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Having no pre-rotation on your toe jumps does, I think, lead to bigger jumps and should awarded better, but I think there is one major drawback from the point of view of the athlete and longevity, which is that you are likely to be more prone to injury in your 'picking' toe and your toe pick leg than if you use your other skating leg to manage some of the weight and pressure. Yuna broke her metarsal bone, remember? It also probably leads to bigger crashes like the ones that Anna does when she's off because the takeoff is going to be less controlled. Posters always talk about how Gracie Gold's jumps are smaller, but I often think that she is better off with smaller jumps because she probably couldn't have sustained the previous jump without breaking a bone.

Well, sport is sport. If your body can't handle it, then that's the cards you were dealt.

Obviously people should weigh the pros and cons for themselves, but the problem in figure skating right now is we're not seeing any great reward for huge jumps and perfect rotational technique.

As for Gracie, I think her changed technique has hurt her energy and confidence as a skater. She's thinking too much instead of doing what she does naturally, what makes her feel the best. She is very likely only going to stay in for 2 more years and what she's been doing obviously hasn't been working, so at least in her case I would definitely say "GO BIG".

A casual viewer might think that the ladies 10 or 20 years ago were mediocre jumpers compared to the ladies nowadays, because they weren't doing so many 3-3's. We all know that this isn't true. The Tara Lipinski's and Sarah Hughes' of this World have shown the way. It's quantity over quality (although I still think that Tara's jumps looked exceptionally nice!)

Interesting you bring up Tara's jumps looking nice, because less pre-rotation is why on some of her jumps. She went straight back into the toe on her Lutz and Flip and rotated so fast, as compared to the modern technique we are seeing of everyone turning to forwards on their toepick (or more...in the case of Miyahara). And then on her half-loop+salchow combos, she had really good timing and snapped that second jump all the way around. Stands out in comparison to the way we see that combo executed by many of the ladies these days. Even though Tara had small jumps they still "filled" the air really well.
 
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hurrah

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Well, sport is sport. If your body can't handle it, then that's the cards you were dealt.

Obviously people should weigh the pros and cons for themselves, but the problem in figure skating right now is we're not seeing any great reward for huge jumps and perfect rotational technique.

I am all for the idea of dinging excessive pre-rotation.
 

largeman

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How's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq-9SxjkLw0

No rotation done on the toe pick on the ice. At all.

Yu-Na pre-rotates her toeloop more than 1/4 of a turn. Pretty much everyone does (and everyone pre-rotates 1/4 at the very least).

Yup I agree. What I meant was - Yuna's left toe hits the ice and vaults her up into the air almost instantly, with minimal rotating done on the toe pick before leaving the ice. Of course, pre-rotation is measured against the skating direction of her right foot at the beginning of the jump (i.e. 0:27 of the video), so the jump does have more than 1/4 turn pre-rotation.

^ With regards to Yu-Na's lutz, however, she does have very little pre-rotation. Lutz and Flip are the most wide-ranging jumps when it comes to how much pre-rotation is "right" for those jumps. You can turn to forward on your toepick and that's fine. But, less pre-rotation is ideal, as that is what makes the jump look fullest in the air and technically it's what generates the most power. You don't want to have no pre-rotation whatsoever, though, because it usually just forces you to do too much work for no reason. Hanyu does his Lutz like that and I'm 99% sure that's why it has given him a relatively higher amount of trouble over the years.

When it comes to a triple lutz by a lady with minimal pre-rotation, this is my go-to video :points: :2thumbs:
 
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solani

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Well, sport is sport. If your body can't handle it, then that's the cards you were dealt.

Obviously people should weigh the pros and cons for themselves, but the problem in figure skating right now is we're not seeing any great reward for huge jumps and perfect rotational technique.

As for Gracie, I think her changed technique has hurt her energy and confidence as a skater. She's thinking too much instead of doing what she does naturally, what makes her feel the best. She is very likely only going to stay in for 2 more years and what she's been doing obviously hasn't been working, so at least in her case I would definitely say "GO BIG".



Interesting you bring up Tara's jumps looking nice, because less pre-rotation is why. She went straight back into the toe on her Lutz and Flip and rotated so fast, as compared to the modern technique we are seeing of everyone turning to forwards on their toepick (or more...in the case of Miyahara).
It's the job of the coaches to keep their students healthy, so I can see why the promote "safer" technique nowadays. Especially because small jumps get high scores. As long as a big and great 2F will not get at least the same amount of points as a rotated, but otherwise poor and low 3F the coaches an athletes will not try to have cleaner technique, because they'll always try to be within that 1/4 turn on the landing. It's spin to win, not quality over quantity. So maybe the times weren't really bad when skaters had to do a 2F as mandatory jump in the SP.
I mentioned Tara and Sarah because they were doing those 3-3's, not because of poor technique. Sarah's jumps were not good, whereas Tara's were great, but both were forerunners.
 
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Moxiejan

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Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about (the ISU handbook doesn't really either, about all of these specifics).

Alrighty, then! The ISU handbook, which sets the rules, doesn't have any idea what it's talking about. But you do! Got it ...
 
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